Must do this
Dragon Ball: After the End
My thoughts.
[ ] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[ ][AFTER] Apologize for the hug.
[ ][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[ ][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.
[ ] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[ ][AFTER] Apologize for the hug.
[ ][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[ ][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.
The kids are literally blasting their entire minds into catatonic oblivion from the inside out on at least a nightly basis.
Can we stop pretending that hugs fix everything now?
[X] Ask their permission and a free, unilateral hand to deal with Dandeer and dispense justice as we deem necessary to resolve this and free them, explicitly up to and including killing her in cold blood. Get it said explicitly in full in the highest formal Vegeta vow by both with their full authority as aggrieved, son, acting family patron, scion, and acting lord.
Yeah, yeah, moratorium. I'll repost it afterwards, but I'm throwing it out front and center now because the discussion of it has already happened and it's now even more relevant. Plus, it continues to be a better idea than hugs. -or talking about hugs. -or talking about why unsolicited physical contact with murderously violent superpowered teenaged child abuse and solitary confinement victims is somehow a bad idea nobody could possibly have seen coming.
We're here for a reason. Let's just get it done before something else tries to kill her. This approach is all about freeing up options in the future. It's a good idea no matter your opinion about what should ultimately be done with Dandeer. Remember, we might not get another chance. After he finds out how catastrophically reckless she was on this trip her teacher may and probably should flatly refuse to let her try again until she has demonstrated a massive improvement in judgement and maturity.
Can we stop pretending that hugs fix everything now?
[X] Ask their permission and a free, unilateral hand to deal with Dandeer and dispense justice as we deem necessary to resolve this and free them, explicitly up to and including killing her in cold blood. Get it said explicitly in full in the highest formal Vegeta vow by both with their full authority as aggrieved, son, acting family patron, scion, and acting lord.
Yeah, yeah, moratorium. I'll repost it afterwards, but I'm throwing it out front and center now because the discussion of it has already happened and it's now even more relevant. Plus, it continues to be a better idea than hugs. -or talking about hugs. -or talking about why unsolicited physical contact with murderously violent superpowered teenaged child abuse and solitary confinement victims is somehow a bad idea nobody could possibly have seen coming.
We're here for a reason. Let's just get it done before something else tries to kill her. This approach is all about freeing up options in the future. It's a good idea no matter your opinion about what should ultimately be done with Dandeer. Remember, we might not get another chance. After he finds out how catastrophically reckless she was on this trip her teacher may and probably should flatly refuse to let her try again until she has demonstrated a massive improvement in judgement and maturity.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[]I wish we could seal Dandeer.
Hey, you know what else child abuse and solitary confinement victims with characteristic Vegetan royal pride don't react well to? Teasing. The idea that mockery is not necessarily a cruel prelude to broken bones is something which has to be realized, then learned, then deeply internalized, and they haven't done that yet. We are not dealing with healthy people. We should not act as if we are. Listen to the goddammed sociopath on this one.
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- Location
- Australia
I don't think they're willing to accept anything other than a guarantee of her death, nor do I think they're willing to cede the authority to killer her to anyone but themselves. Gore17's write-in is better. It gives Dandeer the same fair trial you seem to want to give her but it doesn't rub up against their instincts as hard and instead provides a potential incentive for them to go along with it. If nothing else, Jaffur would be encouraged to agree to our request if it would better allow him to rule his Clan in the future.
Jaron has. A lot. Ever since we first properly met him, actually. Jaffur's probably learned about the concept by now from him.
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Leaning towards:
[] [DEATH] Dispute that.
-[] The story she fed the public was that Jaffur was violently insane and had to be Sealed for public safety. If you kill her, then even in death she'd have gotten her way. Nobody will believe anything else. If you must kill her then go through the full legal process to get it done right. Show control. They'd have the Seers and both Houses behind them that way. She's not getting away.
[ ][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[ ][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[ ][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.
I think they got the sentiment conveyed even though they weren't very comfortable with it, they accepted it in the spirit it was offered.
And opening up to Jaron's retaliation there should ease the tension
[] [DEATH] Dispute that.
-[] The story she fed the public was that Jaffur was violently insane and had to be Sealed for public safety. If you kill her, then even in death she'd have gotten her way. Nobody will believe anything else. If you must kill her then go through the full legal process to get it done right. Show control. They'd have the Seers and both Houses behind them that way. She's not getting away.
[ ][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[ ][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[ ][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.
I think they got the sentiment conveyed even though they weren't very comfortable with it, they accepted it in the spirit it was offered.
And opening up to Jaron's retaliation there should ease the tension
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Gore17 's option, I think, is more to my liking than veekie's, because it doesn't involve Kakara implicitly accepting that it might be okay to kill Dandeer later. I like her character arc and don't feel like deviating from it. I don't want her to do anything stupid over this, and I won't consider it a defeat if Dandeer dies, but I don't want to lead to Kakara slipping back from her Protector trait into a state of dissonance.
EDIT: That said, I like some of @veekie 's wording.
I also think it's a bad idea to tease Jaffur/Jaron as such. Jaron when he's outside the Seal might not be so bad on this issue, but in here where he remembers everything Jaffur remembers? Baaad move.
By the way, how do we know this, again?
EDIT: That said, I like some of @veekie 's wording.
I also think it's a bad idea to tease Jaffur/Jaron as such. Jaron when he's outside the Seal might not be so bad on this issue, but in here where he remembers everything Jaffur remembers? Baaad move.
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There seems to be a typo. I believe it's supposed to be "Clarify is Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well." So we're asking.
If you're asking why we suspect that, it's because he detected our astral form when we were practicing.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Still torn regarding the DEATH vote, though I know I want a write-in something along the lines of Gore17's or veekie's. It's just a question of exact phrasing. As I said, I won't consider it a major defeat if Dandeer dies, but I don't want to RP Kakara being resigned to it, and I do want to try to use Communications magic to talk them out of it.
It's just a question of exactly which vote I choose.
My leading choices for AFTER are...
[][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[][AFTER] Clarify is Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.
I don't feel like 'apologize for hug' is the right choice, because it seems pretty clear they understood intellectually what it was about. They didn't react well, granted, but they didn't act like "what the hell was that?" in the aftermath, either.
It's just a question of exactly which vote I choose.
My leading choices for AFTER are...
[][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[][AFTER] Clarify is Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.
I don't feel like 'apologize for hug' is the right choice, because it seems pretty clear they understood intellectually what it was about. They didn't react well, granted, but they didn't act like "what the hell was that?" in the aftermath, either.
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- Location
- Canada
[X] [DEATH] This is not the time to have that argument.
[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Apologize for the hug.
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay
[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Apologize for the hug.
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay
As far as they'll realize, Kakara is just asking for permission to cripple or kill her if necessary, which their comment on her fighting no matter what and her sorcerous powers make clear really might be. The fact that it also presents the opportunity to fake her death and then never tell anybody is just a nice plus. I certainly don't want to give her a trial. She'll suicide-by-cop before letting herself be apprehended, refuse to cooperate even if she were, wouldn't be acquited by any court on the entire planet, and would be promptly mob-killed on the courthouse steps even if she were.
Jaron is still visibly uncomfortable even in his neutered state, and Jaffur is much worse off. His idea of teasing is still, "Maybe a night of training with a broken arm will man you up, you pathetic disappointment." They do not have the decades of dedicated therapy it would take for them to properly understand and process something as oxymoronic as "friendly" teasing.
Seriously. You have to admit that if there is ONE THING you should listen to the sociopath on, it's this. Do Not Tease Them.
Absolutely true. That is a very important reality which normal, healthy people internalize before they even realize it.
These are not normal, healthy people. What they will see is a person deliberately attempting to demean, discomfort, embarrass, and/or humiliate them. These are not desirable states. This person knows that these are not desirable states. This person knows that they know that this person knows that these are not desirable states, and is still deliberately choosing to openly attempt to inflict them anyway. This is a clear, aggressive, unprovoked attack. Do Not Do This. They will not react well to finding their control of their emotional wellbeing aggressively seized. They will compulsively reassert themselves to cover or remove the alarming vulnerability/threat as fast as possible. You will not like this.
We already know why the hug was not okay. If it's really important to get it known IC we can have Gemma tutor Kakara is basic introductory psychology next year without forcing two already very strained patients to unnecessarily further expose themselves. Hell, I can dissect and stain an amygdala to show you the exact neural circuits responsible. Chances are that they're the last people who should be asked and can't properly verbalize why touching causes extremely uncomfortable bouts of anxiety, anyway.
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Just an FYI, I'm shaping my argument around "how we sell it to them". Its not just about whether she lives or not, but they must be talked into a frame of mind where they are willing to handle the sentencing by proper rule of law.
I don't actually hold much hope for talking them out of it entirely. The argument must be presented with the distinct possibility of Dandeer getting a lethal punishment or they are likely to just blow the deal off entirely.
And TBH I'm not sure we could keep the Vegetans from lynching Dandeer once it all comes out either...
I don't actually hold much hope for talking them out of it entirely. The argument must be presented with the distinct possibility of Dandeer getting a lethal punishment or they are likely to just blow the deal off entirely.
And TBH I'm not sure we could keep the Vegetans from lynching Dandeer once it all comes out either...
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Typo. Should be, "Clarify if Jaron is a..."
Basically, Jaron saw/heard something when you were snooping on the Misfits as a shade. You've been operating under the assumption that he too is a sorcerer, but since you have them here clarifying is an option.
It's almost certain that they won't accept independent arbitration, and completely certain that they wouldn't abide by a non-lethal verdict, which she wouldn't get in even the fairest court on the planet, which isn't very fair because the saiyans don't have a hard line between law and politics and most of the population along with literally every single one of the relevant royal and religious authorities want her dead in terrible, terrible ways.
There is exactly one way she can live through this, and that's if everybody thinks that she is already dead. Whether or not that is a good plan compared to dooming her to be tortured to the edge of death over and over and over again until they run out of Senzu beans is up for debate, but if you want her to live it is the only plan with even a ghost of a chance of not ending with both her grizzly murder and blowback on Kakara.
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I know. I'm passing the buck to the legal system to at least make it clean.
And more importantly keep any blowback off Jaffur.
The problem is that there doesn't seem to be an independent judiciary. The judge is the Lord, and his finding is a combination of what he wants and what is politically feasible. At best, your suggestion boils down to demanding that either, "Tortures woman and children for fun" Vegeta or, "Tortures lots of women and children for fun" Yammar get first dibs.
Not infeasible, but let's not pretend that there's some sort of abstract, neutral system to pawn this off on. The council plebiscite was probably the closest thing to a jury trial the Saiyans have ever had. If Kakara hands her over she's dead just as surely and probably a lot more painfully than if Kakara had just shot her herself.
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I am aware. My primary objective is to maintain Jaffur's image as the sane aggrieved, not the rampaging berserker.
Alright. Reasonable position, just so long as we're clear.
However, I suspect that that will present novel problems. Jaffur actively wants to kill her painlessly and likely will not agree because it will result in either her grizzly death or total exoneration. Jaron wants her to suffer terribly, but he also wants to be the one to do it. It's unlikely that either of them particularly cares about their public appearance or the perception of Berra, because they're monomaniacal recluses who have already proven that they could kill Berra even when they were nothing but a basic SSJ, and regardless of what happens to Dandeer the next person they are immediately going to murder will be Vegeta, and there will be no choice but to kill him themselves in very public fashion.
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Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
@Lailoken they won't accept your vote. It basically asks him to surrender Vegatan sovereignity (their state's right to judge their criminals) to a foreign state (since we are the scion of clan Goku). He doesn't have the power for that either, he is not the acting Lord. Raditz and presumably every Vegetan who joins the conspiracy gave an oath declaring Yammar as the acting Lord until the situation is resolved, we were even there to see it when Raditz did. Not only is Jaffur not stupid enough to fall for that but attempting this would royally piss our Vegetan allies.
Not to mention that the reasoning for suggesting it is the possibility of us wanting to implement an extremely convoluted plan thought on the spot that doesn't solve the issue and opensus up to more problems in the future.
You might as well go for the nuclear option:
[] [DEATH] And she will die thinking you are like your father.
Which would for sure piss them off and might result in our death but it is probably the one thing that might actually give them pause. Particularly Jaffur since he was just made aware he doesn't remember a time when he supposedly almost killed his mother without justified cause.
Not to mention that the reasoning for suggesting it is the possibility of us wanting to implement an extremely convoluted plan thought on the spot that doesn't solve the issue and opensus up to more problems in the future.
You might as well go for the nuclear option:
[] [DEATH] And she will die thinking you are like your father.
Which would for sure piss them off and might result in our death but it is probably the one thing that might actually give them pause. Particularly Jaffur since he was just made aware he doesn't remember a time when he supposedly almost killed his mother without justified cause.
[X] Ask their permission and a free, unilateral hand to deal with Dandeer and dispense justice as we deem necessary to resolve this and free them, explicitly up to and including killing her in cold blood. Get it said explicitly in full in the highest formal Vegeta vow by both with their full authority as aggrieved, son, acting family patron, scion, acting lord, and everything else we can think of.
I don't buy that argument. I think that the lack of a clean line between politics and law in Saiyan society means that it would still carry a lot of weight as cover for whatever behavior we end up resorting to. I also think that they know even better than Kakara just how far the sorceress might go to stop the plot and understand why a conspirator would want, even purely as a precaution, their permission to steal their "kill", if necessary.
There are some other parts of the pledge which they hopefully won't notice, but even if they do, hey, it's a stupid Gokun kid aping cover-your-ass Vegetan legalese she's overheard here and there. It's not like it's going to occur to them that she actually wants to fake Dandeer's death and deceive everybody about it to save the evil witch's life (which we hopefully won't, but which we have to be ready for the thread to insist upon). As for authority, notice that there's no time specified in that section, then refer back to the lack of clean line between legal, political, traditional, religious, and moral authorities and the resulting value as deflective cover in a worst-case scenario no matter what we end up deciding to do. Remember that this is a kid who had every intention of killing BOTH parents as soon as he gets out. He expects to become lord and an active leader very soon and being the first person to treat him that way is valuable
I don't buy that argument. I think that the lack of a clean line between politics and law in Saiyan society means that it would still carry a lot of weight as cover for whatever behavior we end up resorting to. I also think that they know even better than Kakara just how far the sorceress might go to stop the plot and understand why a conspirator would want, even purely as a precaution, their permission to steal their "kill", if necessary.
There are some other parts of the pledge which they hopefully won't notice, but even if they do, hey, it's a stupid Gokun kid aping cover-your-ass Vegetan legalese she's overheard here and there. It's not like it's going to occur to them that she actually wants to fake Dandeer's death and deceive everybody about it to save the evil witch's life (which we hopefully won't, but which we have to be ready for the thread to insist upon). As for authority, notice that there's no time specified in that section, then refer back to the lack of clean line between legal, political, traditional, religious, and moral authorities and the resulting value as deflective cover in a worst-case scenario no matter what we end up deciding to do. Remember that this is a kid who had every intention of killing BOTH parents as soon as he gets out. He expects to become lord and an active leader very soon and being the first person to treat him that way is valuable
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Actually, we have no indication one way or another what he plans to do with his father.