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[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Clarify is Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.

I like this set of options. We aren't saying Dandeer doesn't die, but we are talking them down (gently) from ragebeast or calm sociopath insta-gib, with reasons they will understand and that won't impugn their Saiyan Pride.

Also, it answers important questions, or at least asks them.
 
Actually, we have no indication one way or another what he plans to do with his father.

This kid TALKED himself into breaking the Super-Saiyan barrier with the need to kill his father. Everything about the completely new fighting style he personally designed from the ground up is perfectly tuned to kill a single Super-Saiyan as quickly and surely as possible in direct opposition to the typical Vegetan and general lord need to handle large numbers of weaker opponents, hence why he was already prepared to successfully kill a full SSJ when he was only a basic SSJ. At best, he will give Vegeta one single chance to abdicate before coring him out with Charon's Breath.

This kid has planned his entire life around one, very specific alpha strike against a very specific equal or stronger opponent.
 
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This kid TALKED himself into breaking the Super-Saiyan barrier with the need to kill his father. Everything about the completely new fighting store he personally designed from the ground up is perfectly tuned to kill a single Super-Saiyan as quickly and surely as possible in direct opposition to the typical Vegetan and general lord need to handle large numbers of weaker opponents, hence why he was already prepared to successfully kill a full SSJ when he was only a basic SSJ. At best, he will give Vegeta one single chance to abdicate before coring him out with Charon's Breath.

This kid has planned his entire life around one, very specific alpha strike against a very specific equal or stronger opponent.
And, last he saw, Dandeer had Sealed him. He is, for all intents and purposes, dead. Not least because, unlike Jaffur, Vegeta can't break out through a malfunctioning Seal through his own sorcery, if he's even aware of what is going on. Jaffur, back when we first entered the mindscape, even used past tense to refer to Vegeta in his ranting.
 
And, last he saw, Dandeer had Sealed him. He is, for all intents and purposes, dead. Not least because, unlike Jaffur, Vegeta can't break out through a malfunctioning Seal through his own sorcery, if he's even aware of what is going on. Jaffur, back when we first entered the mindscape, even used past tense to refer to Vegeta in his ranting.

And, if Jaffur gets out, Vegeta gets out. This isn't up to Kakara. There is no realistic plan where Jaffur and only Jaffur gets released. Yammar, Raditz, Dandalor, Grandma, every Vegetan, and the entire church all want him set free. He is going to be set free, and he is not going to be a happy man.

What do you think is going to happen next?
 
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And, if Jaffur gets out, Vegeta gets out. This isn't up to Kakara. There is no realistic plan where Jaffur and only Jaffur gets released. Yammar, Raditz, Dandalor, Grandma, every Vegetan, and the entire church all want him set free. He is going to be set free, and he is not going to be a happy man.

What do you think is going to happen next?
Now, see, this is where I disagree for a rather simple, fundamental reason: no one in the conspiracy wants him back. Clan Senzu? Want to leave him as it, but are willing to leave that decision up to others. Yammar? Would have killed him personally if Dandeer hadn't Sealed him, I can't image he'd care to set him free. Grandma? Doesn't like or care about him. The Seers? They don't give a flying fuck about him, they just want this abomination with Jaffur/Jaron to be fixed. Kakara? We all know her opinion.

Far more likely, they'll use Jaron as evidence that the Seal creates a new person, and that Valentine is legally a different being, and that Vegeta is legally dead. They could restore him by killing Valentine, but they won't, because he's already earned death.

There's a reason the conspiracy is "restore Jaffur", not "restore Vegeta Vegeta the Vegetanth".
 
[X] [DEATH] Ask their permission and a free, unilateral hand to deal with Dandeer and dispense justice as we deem necessary to resolve this and free them, explicitly up to and including killing her in cold blood. Get it said explicitly in full in the highest formal Vegeta vow by both with their full authority as aggrieved, son, acting family patron, scion, and acting lord.


Pick any of the following. Top three win.

[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Apologize for the hug.
[X][AFTER] Clarify if Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.
[X][AFTER] Inform Jaffur that if he is released from the Seal, there's a chance his father might as well. Ask for his thoughts on the matter.
 
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[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.

So Jaron and Jaffur only stop fighting when they obliterated their mind so hard they can't even think anymore, I don't see how it could ever be a problem. Share that tidbit with anyone with a bit of magical understanding and conscience and they will scream in outrage.

I don't mind encouraging restraint if it can screw Dandeer even more in the end.
 
Is there a limit to the number of things we can ask them? I'd like to know their thoughts on Lord Vegeta.
I assume most Vegetans will want him back as well.
 
[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.
 
No limit, but only the top three win for this vote.
I see. In that case...


[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Inform Jaffur that if he is released from the Seal, there's a chance his father might as well. Ask for his thoughts on the matter.

I'd normally go for the tease option, but this isn't really the right time for that. We're discussing serious stuff here.
 
[X] Gore17

Not sure if he's voted yet but I agree with his perspective the most and don't have time to hash a bunch of points out.
 
Now, see, this is where I disagree for a rather simple, fundamental reason: no one in the conspiracy wants him back. Clan Senzu? Want to leave him as it, but are willing to leave that decision up to others. Yammar? Would have killed him personally if Dandeer hadn't Sealed him, I can't image he'd care to set him free. Grandma? Doesn't like or care about him. The Seers? They don't give a flying fuck about him, they just want this abomination with Jaffur/Jaron to be fixed. Kakara? We all know her opinion.

Far more likely, they'll use Jaron as evidence that the Seal creates a new person, and that Valentine is legally a different being, and that Vegeta is legally dead. They could restore him by killing Valentine, but they won't, because he's already earned death.

There's a reason the conspiracy is "restore Jaffur", not "restore Vegeta Vegeta the Vegetanth".

This is not what I remember. Grandma and Yammar were both utterly furious with Dandeer and plotting against her before Kakara ever got involved. The Senzu were actively rebelling. I don't remember Yammar, "torture children to death for fun", Vegeta ever saying he wanted to kill Vegeta for being a bully inside his own home. Everybody, including even Berra, agree that while he was a personal monster, Vegeta was a competent, effective, and legitimate lord. Most of the people who are upset with the sealing are going to be upset with both sealings. As for the rights of Valentine? If Jaron can be saved he probably can be as well, and even if he can't, a lot of Vegetans are going to have Dandeer's attitude towards human life when their lord is at stake, especially the church.

If you really think there's the slightest chance that we're going to be able to swing keeping him sealed I urge you to get an action discussing it in the next plan, because I can't imagine most of even any of the other conspirators agreeing. Grandma might be indifferent, but she also may well be compelled by her faith to release him.

The only thing functionally wrong with this guy is that he is a domestic abuser, and Kakara and Berra are extremely unusual in actually caring about that. If anybody really cared he would have been stopped long, long ago, but even Berra just stood by and watched for years. Nobody cares. Nobody is going to be willing to keep him sealed just to protect a wife they all want dead, a son who can now defend himself, or some random human husk. Not when the entire clan is in the middle of a total collapse of civil order and on the verge of civil war.

This is going to end with Jaffur executing Vegeta.


-and you know the really screwed up thing? I think that deep down Vegeta knows and wants that. He hates himself, and he's projected all of that hate onto his son who is the only person after Berra failed who can turn it around and use it to give him the destruction he feels he deserves. Dandeer certainly thinks this. She hated Jaffur's style because she knows perfectly well that there is exactly one reason why her sweet little boy is working himself to death to craft the perfect technique to alpha strike one single stronger, faster opponent. It's no coincidence that she acted just as the final showdown became a realistic possibilty. We may even discover that on that night Jaffur was insisting on protecting his mother, and she just couldn't bear to end up being left alone with either of them.
 
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[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.

[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.

I Will edit in the Death vote once I have read opinions of others. :D
 
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I swear to Hades- what is so hard to understand about this? Children who have been taught that touch = pain do not like being touched. Children who have been taught that teasing = pain do not like being teased. This is not complicated. This is literally textbook Pavlovian classical conditioning.
 
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I see. In that case...


[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Inform Jaffur that if he is released from the Seal, there's a chance his father might as well. Ask for his thoughts on the matter.

I'd normally go for the tease option, but this isn't really the right time for that. We're discussing serious stuff here.

Top three of after plus top one of death. As laid out in the post itself, actually.
 
Top three of after plus top one of death. As laid out in the post itself, actually.
Thanks.

[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Inform Jaffur that if he is released from the Seal, there's a chance his father might as well. Ask for his thoughts on the matter.
 
[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Clarify if Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.​
 
[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Inform Jaffur that if he is released from the Seal, there's a chance his father might as well. Ask for his thoughts on the matter.
 
I swear to Hades- what is so hard to understand about this? Children who have been taught that touch = pain do not like being touched. Children who have been taught that teasing = pain do not like being teased. This is not complicated. This is literally pavlovian classical conditioning.
Why are you still going on about that? We know.
 
Somebody, I think it was @Simon_Jester , wrote an omake from Jaffur's POV which the GM confirmed we spot-on. He was "obsessed" because his entire accumulated context of socializing amounts to hurling brutal killing strikes an inch from somebody's nose and challenging them to a fight. That is how he tries make friends. He wanted to make friends because it was the first time in his life he met somebody who might be a genuine peer equal in strength and with no obligations to or from him.



Why are you still going on about that? We know.

For one thing, because it was just as blindingly obvious the first time, and yet the thread still somehow voted for hugs. For another, there are still people voting to ask about the blindingly obvious and clearly uncomfortable, or even to try to recruit Jaffur to join in on what they will both see as unprovoked bullying of his brother and only friend. Our time limit here is when they get too uncomfortable to continue. It's important to stop wasting time going out of our way to make them uncomfortable.
 
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This is not what I remember. Grandma and Yammar were both utterly furious with Dandeer and plotting against her before Kakara ever got involved. The Senzu were actively rebelling. I don't remember Yammar, "torture children to death for fun", Vegeta ever saying he wanted to kill Vegeta for being a bully inside his own home. Everybody, including even Berra, agree that while he was a personal monster, Vegeta was a competent, effective, and legitimate lord. Most of the people who are upset with the sealing are going to be upset with both sealings. As for the rights of Valentine? If Jaron can be saved he probably can be as well, and even if he can't, a lot of Vegetans are going to have Dandeer's attitude towards human life when their lord is at stake, especially the church.

If you really think there's the slightest chance that we're going to be able to swing keeping him sealed I urge you to get an action discussing it in the next plan, because I can't imagine most of even any of the other conspirators agreeing. Grandma might be indifferent, but she also may well be compelled by her faith to release him.
And I'll note that not a single goddamn bit of the planning included freeing Vegeta. And yes, the Senzu's were rebelling, for Jaffur, not Vegeta, who they described as "decent" at ruling.

Also, I think you might be viewing Dandeer's attitude as more common then it is.

As for caring...

The position of Clan Senzu on releasing Lord Vegeta, straight from the mouth of Raditz, is "I would prefer no to". The Seers? If he's properly asleep, and going through the mental yo-yoing Jaron is, won't put up a fuss as they didn't beforehand. Yammar? Not his sons biggest fan right now. Kakara? Does not care about him. Berra? Willing to let it continue.
The only thing functionally wrong with this guy is that he is a domestic abuser, and Kakara and Berra are extremely unusual in actually caring about that. If anybody really cared he would have been stopped long, long ago, but even Berra just stood by and watched for years. Nobody cares.
Actually, the only people aware of what he was doing was his immediate family and the Goku family, and even then, there were those related to him that weren't aware of what was going on, such as Yammar. Poptart has previously mentioned that all the abuse was subtle/hidden, and that him showing off his horrible nature in public like he did would have had negative consequences for him if Dandeer had beaten them to the punch. Such as Yammar finding out what was going on.
I swear to Hades- what is so hard to understand about this? Children who have been taught that touch = pain do not like being touched. Children who have been taught that teasing = pain do not like being teased. This is not complicated. This is literally pavlovian classical conditioning.
You do realize that Kakara teases Jaron, and the rest of the Misfits, all the time right?
 
And I'll note that not a single goddamn bit of the planning included freeing Vegeta. And yes, the Senzu's were rebelling, for Jaffur, not Vegeta, who they described as "decent" at ruling.

Also, I think you might be viewing Dandeer's attitude as more common then it is.

As for caring...

The position of Clan Senzu on releasing Lord Vegeta, straight from the mouth of Raditz, is "I would prefer no to". The Seers? If he's properly asleep, and going through the mental yo-yoing Jaron is, won't put up a fuss as they didn't beforehand. Yammar? Not his sons biggest fan right now. Kakara? Does not care about him. Berra? Willing to let it continue.

Actually, the only people aware of what he was doing was his immediate family and the Goku family, and even then, there were those related to him that weren't aware of what was going on, such as Yammar. Poptart has previously mentioned that all the abuse was subtle/hidden, and that him showing off his horrible nature in public like he did would have had negative consequences for him if Dandeer had beaten them to the punch. Such as Yammar finding out what was going on.

You do realize that Kakara teases Jaron, and the rest of the Misfits, all the time right?
Most Vegetans were okay with Lord Vegeta from what I can tell, if Jaffur is brought back they will obviously ask why Lord Vegeta isn't brought back as well.
Besides, we are all ignoring what will happen if he isn't unsealed, what will happen to him? His wife will be dead, and he will have a second son that despises him appear out of nowhere.
I think we should ask Jaffur what he intends to do about his father, does he still want to kill him even if he's sealed?

Also, this technically isn't the same Jaron we know, he remembers a lot more stuff than awake Jaron, and is a lot more unstable.
 
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