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Where are you getting detailed info on the capabilities and limits of The Enemy?
Note that we have confirmation that the Androids survived and are relatively active in the wider galaxy. This would point to the fact that the Enemy can't sense them, or at least make that fact much more plausible.
 
On what exactly? You spouted weird nonsensical statements about androids which i suspect had a lot of typos autocorrect altered.
You are talking past each other.

Fictionfan first stated androids would have the benefit of being invisible to ki sense. Then you stated that we don't know that the enemy would not be able to sense the energy of androids. Fictionfan then stated that even if he could, androids don't necessarily mean saiyan since anyone could build them so it wouldn't tell the enemy there is where the remaining saiyans are. You then stated that the androids were built by Gero, which means the technology comes from earth, which fiction took as proof that, since a human who was not a z fighter made it and since the garenhulders are the ones that perfected the field with what the saiyans introduced, this proof that the technology could pop up again even without Access to Gero's research, which means that any civilization could come up with said tech so it doesn't necessarily mean that there are saiyans there. Which means that, unless the Enemy checks every single planet with a high PL, then he has no reason to come to Garenhuld even if he is able to sense the energy from androids made there as long as he doesn't feel a saiyan's ki.

Basically, what Gore17 said.

Edit: And... IT'd by carrnage being reasonable
 
I am now worried that the coming fleet might have a whole army of Super Saiyan level androids.
 
IMPORTANT STARTING POINT:

I'm not actually disputing that having an android army would be an interesting and worthwhile idea. What I am disputing is that it acts as a "hard counter" to the Enemy, or to our problems in general. Especially since there are strong indications that some of the Enemy's abilities involve magic or other 'exotic' weird effects, so that they are probably not strictly limited to the palette of skills a ki user has.

Even more importantly, Androids can not be detected with ki sense (yet). We could make an army of them without worry of the enemy sensing them.

We might have been better off never doing any combat training and just working on tinkering.
...

[closes eyes]

Okay, for one, you're building a very large supposition on the detailed interpretation of that individual passage. For all I know, it was a throwaway line by Poptart or one they've since changed their mind on, because we've ALSO had it said that Garenhulder technology is about on the level of Earth's except for certain specific areas that were neglected or developed a bit harder. Things like Gero's infinite energy reactor may not be a part of the Garenhulder tech list after all, at least not to our knowledge.

Secondly, it is entirely possible for threats to overtake us while we're working on plan "conquer the galaxy with an army of robots." So no, neglecting our combat training to the point where we become squishy until our robots show up down the line sounds unwise. Remember what happened to the original Dr. Gero, and for that matter his transplanted brain. Namely, splattering happened.

Nothing about Androids says they must have been built by Saiyans. Even if they are sensed that does not mean there are Saiyans here.
It does, however, increase his motive to investigate the planet. Remember that we know the Enemy wants to exterminate all saiyans, but it may well be that this is merely one part of a broader agenda like "kill all beings and races that have the potential to surpass and destroy me." Rapid escalation of android technology would be just as much of a potential "these guys could get stronger and stronger until they kill me" problem as a bunch of saiyans.

And yes, I know, it's bad idea to apply "no limits" reasoning. My point isn't "well, the Enemy may have no limits." My point is that we shouldn't simply assume that we can have androids demonstrate as much power as we want without someone noticing; that would also be "no limits" reasoning.

We could get surgery and load ourselves up on some of those infinite energy reactors and never run out of ki.
Assuming that the Garenhulders have, specifically, the infinite energy reactors... And that seems a bit unlikely given that their technology isn't obviously future-sci-fi-post-scarcity. It folds back into my question to Poptart earlier.

Also, I suspect that implanting an infinite energy reactor isn't just a matter of simple surgery, but requires reconstruction of much of the body and replacement of a lot of flesh with metal. Remember, of the three infinite energy androids, one was literally just a big metal construct and the other two were cyborgs so heavily altered that relatively little of their original bodies remained- obviously some (e.g. Android 18's ability to have children) but not necessarily a lot. There'd be some pushbacks to us experimenting on ourselves by implanting a lot of cybernetics, and for that matter on implanting large groups of others with heavy trial-and-error problems.

Note that we have confirmation that the Androids survived and are relatively active in the wider galaxy. This would point to the fact that the Enemy can't sense them, or at least make that fact much more plausible.
This is true. On the other hand, it may also be that the Enemy simply hasn't devoted time and effort to hunting them down, because he doesn't consider beings of that power level to be a potential problem. Saiyans have a known habit of exceeding all limits if you give them enough time; the history of power level growth on Garenhuld tends to suggest that if the Enemy hadn't destroyed Earth, there would be a lot of saiyan descendants who by now be attaining godlike power levels in considerably greater numbers, possibly enough to threaten the Enemy.
 
Also, I suspect that implanting an infinite energy reactor isn't just a matter of simple surgery, but requires reconstruction of much of the body and replacement of a lot of flesh with metal. Remember, of the three infinite energy androids, one was literally just a big metal construct and the other two were cyborgs so heavily altered that relatively little of their original bodies remained- obviously some (e.g. Android 18's ability to have children) but not necessarily a lot. There'd be some pushbacks to us experimenting on ourselves by implanting a lot of cybernetics, and for that matter on implanting large groups of others with heavy trial-and-error problems.
Actually, Androids 17 & 18 were entirely biological, though synthetic. Hence their compatability with Cell.
 
Okay, but were they not extensively rebuilt with large parts of their body replaced?
Unsure about replaced, but they were definitely extensively modified. Down to the cellular level IIRC.

And while I'm unsure about whether they had large amounts of mechanical parts, they at least had a ki detection system and a rather powerful bomb, strong enough that 16 believed he could destroy cell with his.
 
Unsure about replaced, but they were definitely extensively modified. Down to the cellular level IIRC.

And while I'm unsure about whether they had large amounts of mechanical parts, they at least had a ki detection system and a rather powerful bomb, strong enough that 16 believed he could destroy cell with his.
I think that the threat was self destruction do that Cell would not be able to absorb her. I think that those bombs were placed so Doctor Gero could blow them up with his remote.
 
Unsure about replaced, but they were definitely extensively modified. Down to the cellular level IIRC.

And while I'm unsure about whether they had large amounts of mechanical parts, they at least had a ki detection system and a rather powerful bomb, strong enough that 16 believed he could destroy cell with his.
Yeah.

The details may vary, but we do have good reason to think that "androidification" isn't as simple a process as "just stick a single implant into them." It bears remembering that Dr. Gero perfected the process with mass human testing, too, to the point where he went through dozens of "failed experiment" victims.

This is not a road I'd be comfortable following with Kakara, not without a lot of very significant differences. Hence my discontent with the "tinkering is all we need" path. I'm genuinely interested in following up on it- but it's not a good match for our current problems.

I think that the threat was self destruction do that Cell would not be able to absorb her. I think that those bombs were placed so Doctor Gero could blow them up with his remote.
Let's not lose track of which androids are which. Eighteen threatened to self-destruct to avoid absorption. Sixteen tried to grab Cell and self-destruct to kill him. Now, Eighteen's suicide bomb may not have been powerful enough to threaten Cell directly, then again it may have been.
 
Well it is too late for that now really. We are going to at least perfect Multiform and elite ki sense. Both of which are fairly big projects. Also seer Training and whatever other things go on fire.

Might be worth studying healing and tinkering anyway. But hard to fit in.
 
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Okay, but were they not extensively rebuilt with large parts of their body replaced?
I think a better word would be "altered", as I'm fairly sure he used their own biomass/organs, just altered/reworked, often drastically. Very efficient resource wise, and minimizes the risk of rejection. Also means they can grow, heal and adapt.

But yeah, almost certainly very different. I was just pointing out that it can be done biologically as well. I question why Cell didn't have the Infinite Energy Generators installed by default, but I suspect Gero couldn't figure out a way for them to be grown, so he improvised with a pre-existing system to allow installation.

As for the question of "whether Garenhulders could create Gero-level Androids", I'm guessing the answer is no. Because just because they've got the robotics side of things down, doesn't mean they've got the energy sources, weaponry or computer systems he had access to/invented.

And, you know, Gero's level of genius. :V
 
Yeah.

The details may vary, but we do have good reason to think that "androidification" isn't as simple a process as "just stick a single implant into them." It bears remembering that Dr. Gero perfected the process with mass human testing, too, to the point where he went through dozens of "failed experiment" victims.

This is not a road I'd be comfortable following with Kakara, not without a lot of very significant differences. Hence my discontent with the "tinkering is all we need" path. I'm genuinely interested in following up on it- but it's not a good match for our current problems.

Bears commentary- my understanding is that the word generally being used in Japanese fiction to refer to all of androids, cyborgs, and synthetic humans literally means 'doll' and is used to mean 'not a real human', basically.

This is probably a large part of why you get stuff like the DBZ androids who appear to very possibly not be actual robots at all, often indistinctly intermixed with actual androids from a western perspective etc.

So, what exactly makes an android an android in DBZ is probably a tad vague for that reason...
 
This talk about the androids and their immunity to normal Ki Sensing got me thinking about Ki Stealth again. Then I remembered a comment about picoseconds being relevant at higher power levels in the update where we shot down the nukes, and I had a thought.

Light travels 0.299 792 458 mm per picosecond. This means that for high-PL fights to make any sense, one of two things must be true:
  1. Light travels even faster in DBZ than it does in reality
  2. At high power levels, enemies aren't tracked purely by vision
Assuming the second to be true, it is very likely that Ki Sense plays a large role in whatever method is used - possibly sending information to the user's optic nerves as changes in the enemy's position are detected, well before the light actually hits the user's eyes. In which case, rendering oneself invisible to Ki Sense could have massive repercussions in high-PL fights. Forget ambushes and hiding - even in the middle of a fight, the enemy won't see your attacks coming in time to block them!

I suspect @PoptartProdigy will rule that light in DBZ just moves faster than light :V, but otherwise we might be able to take advantage of this. If we achieved Ki Stealth, perhaps enemies would be forced to instead track the null area where they don't detect anything at all? In which case instead of being completely broken, your opponent would just take a penalty based on exactly how competent they are at sensing Ki.
 
Assuming the second to be true, it is very likely that Ki Sense plays a large role in whatever method is used - possibly sending information to the user's optic nerves as changes in the enemy's position are detected, well before the light actually hits the user's eyes. In which case, rendering oneself invisible to Ki Sense could have massive repercussions in high-PL fights. Forget ambushes and hiding - even in the middle of a fight, the enemy won't see your attacks coming in time to block them!
I mean, canonically Piccolo drills Gohan in using his ki sense instead of his eyes to track the fight because it is now too fast for any eyes to track, fairly early in DBZ, so I imagine it's 'ki sense!', but I ain't the QM to give an official ruling.
 
I mean, canonically Piccolo drills Gohan in using his ki sense instead of his eyes to track the fight because it is now too fast for any eyes to track, fairly early in DBZ, so I imagine it's 'ki sense!', but I ain't the QM to give an official ruling.
It can't be purely Ki Sense though, or else the androids would be completely impossible to fight - hence my supposition that perhaps it's possible to detect where-they-are-not.
 
There's an enemy from Universe 10 who does something similar to exactly that, through precise manipulation of their Ki they completely threw Gohan off balance, unable to predict where exactly they'd be.

Gohan had to get around it by letting himself be hit, similar to Kenpachi from Bleach, then outlasted the guy through more stamina.
 
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It can't be purely Ki Sense though, or else the androids would be completely impossible to fight - hence my supposition that perhaps it's possible to detect where-they-are-not.
It is interesting to note, I think, that when facing the androids our protagonists are canonically much more prone to whirling around and physically looking in every direction, where in normal fights they tend to whirl to face the opponent directly, which tends to imply the eyes can work even though they normally accurately track via ki sense.

Assuming I am not tremendously misremembering, anyways.
 
It is interesting to note, I think, that when facing the androids our protagonists are canonically much more prone to whirling around and physically looking in every direction, where in normal fights they tend to whirl to face the opponent directly, which tends to imply the eyes can work even though they normally accurately track via ki sense.

Assuming I am not tremendously misremembering, anyways.
That would be some really interesting attention to detail if you're remembering correctly.

There's an enemy from Universe 10 who does something similar to exactly that, through precise manipulation of their Ki they completely threw Gohan off balance, unable to predict where exactly they'd be.

Gohan had to get around it by letting himself be hit, similar to Kenpachi from Bleach, then outlasted the guy through more stamina.
Oh cool, so we actually have a canon example of this!
 
That would be some really interesting attention to detail if you're remembering correctly.
I specifically remember noting the contrast when watching DBZ abridged that when hunting eg Android Gero they are frantically searching, constantly changing facing, to try to locate him, while by contrast back on Namek whenever someone was hunting someone else they were probably doing stuff like being vaguely meditative.
 
I specifically remember noting the contrast when watching DBZ abridged that when hunting eg Android Gero they are frantically searching, constantly changing facing, to try to locate him, while by contrast back on Namek whenever someone was hunting someone else they were probably doing stuff like being vaguely meditative.
Thinking about it, that would actually synergise really well with PM (even more than everything else does, given how it's a straight-up-multiplier :V). If you're having trouble keeping track of one opponent at a time, how are you supposed to manage four different opponents coming at you from different directions?
 
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