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Hm. I might like to try half-year turns when specific crises are happening, just so we have more latitude in spending actions dealing with the crisis (like an alien invasion) and then spending them dealing with normal affairs (like training) on separate turns without mutual interference.

Poptart has already said that if we want to 'bank' actions in the beginning of the year to save up effort for that sort of event to occur we can.

You surely could. I'll go ahead and make an option for it next year..

The thread was pretty much against doing so though, considering it a 'wasted' action.
 
But we're all seeing his failing magnified through the lens of Kakara. Whether @PoptartProdigy was trying to make him seem as bad as we all see him now is a different story, but suffice to say poptart has.

Honestly, thinking back on the Sealing, I kinda feel like we aren't hating on him enough. The Sealing of Jaffur thoroughly disgusts me on multiple levels, and I am very accepting of horrible things. But to see a good person choose to condemn someone so young whose only real sin is defending himself and has suffered his whole life indirectly to from your own actions to a fate worse than death? To destroy everything that made Jaffur himself, replace it with something else, and have the GAUL to say you are helping/healing him! I could have accepted the sealing if they acknowledged that it was equivalent to murder, just without a corpse. But they didn't. He didn't.
Are you sure Sealing actually destroys personality? As opposed to, say, putting it on ice while people try to figure out what to do about a dangerously insane super-saiyan child?

I joined this quest recently compared to most of you guys. Normally, when I catch up in quests things like that don't hit anywhere near as hard. The Sealing really struck a nerve with me, and normally when something like that happens everyone involved becomes your enemy - but Berra isn't our enemy and that makes the hate fester. A part of me still wants to kill Berra for his part in it.

*Deep Breath*

I try to keep it repressed. Sorry for the rant guys, I needed to vent some Berra hate before I set up a long term plan to kill him.
Uh, you DO realize that, unless a major conversation between Dandeer and Berra was staged for our benefit (and that seems unlikely)...

Berra has reason to think that Jaffur straight-up tried to murder Dandeer and beat him to within an inch of his life? And furthermore, Jaffur fought in a crazed, ferocious, berserk, and highly effective fashion when Berra tried to restrain him. And remember that Berra hates Lord Vegeta; the bad blood between them is a thing of whispered legend.

The combination gives Berra an excellent reason to think that, as a consequence of Lord Vegeta's blatant child abuse, Jaffur has become a superpowered lunatic, someone who is as much a wild animal as a boy. Someone who's too powerful to restrain for long, what with there being only four people on the planet who can even come close to his power level. Someone who's too young to govern others and too insane to govern himself. A godlike loose cannon who may well present an unstable threat to everything the saiyan community on Garenhuld has built.

We know better. But Berra doesn't.

What you're doing is, quite simply, judging Berra's actions based on the information supplied both to us OOC and to Kakara IC... but not based on the information available to Berra IC.
 
Are you sure Sealing actually destroys personality? As opposed to, say, putting it on ice while people try to figure out what to do about a dangerously insane super-saiyan child?.

There is a lot of Dandeer hate in this thread, for reasons I can't quite understand.

Especially since we don't quite know the entire story just yet!
 
Are you sure Sealing actually destroys personality? As opposed to, say, putting it on ice while people try to figure out what to do about a dangerously insane super-saiyan child?

Uh, you DO realize that, unless a major conversation between Dandeer and Berra was staged for our benefit (and that seems unlikely)...

Berra has reason to think that Jaffur straight-up tried to murder Dandeer and beat him to within an inch of his life? And furthermore, Jaffur fought in a crazed, ferocious, berserk, and highly effective fashion when Berra tried to restrain him. And remember that Berra hates Lord Vegeta; the bad blood between them is a thing of whispered legend.

The combination gives Berra an excellent reason to think that, as a consequence of Lord Vegeta's blatant child abuse, Jaffur has become a superpowered lunatic, someone who is as much a wild animal as a boy. Someone who's too powerful to restrain for long, what with there being only four people on the planet who can even come close to his power level. Someone who's too young to govern others and too insane to govern himself. A godlike loose cannon who may well present an unstable threat to everything the saiyan community on Garenhuld has built.

We know better. But Berra doesn't.

What you're doing is, quite simply, judging Berra's actions based on the information supplied both to us OOC and to Kakara IC... but not based on the information available to Berra IC.

I could go into detail that Jaffur's actions can be constituted as self-defense in the face of an aggressor attacking you with intent to kill, but I won't. I could go into detail of how when Jaffur was in his "crazed, ferocious, berserk" state he was able to subdue a superior opponent while restraining himself from lethal force, but I won't. I could talk about how Jaffur needed THERAPY not euthanasia, but I won't. I could talk about how the son should not bear the punishment for the sins of the father, but I won't.

And yes, I know Berra doesn't know better. I know. That's why I repress my hate. But why should I look at it from his flawed perspective? I expresses my personal opinion on it, looking at it from the perspective we are offered. Should I look back on the Holocaust from the perspective of a Nazi soldier in one of the death camps? That's analogous to what you want me to do. While the ultimate blame does not rest with him, the horrific event could not have occurred without his cooperation. He has reasons that personally justify his actions and make him think he is in the right, while from an outside perspective he really wasn't.
 
Put this way.

Even if Dandeer is playing an evil game, we would have very limited reason to think Berra was. So "I want him to die" and other such sentiments strike me as being the result of elaborate structures built up over time to ignore questions like "what good reasons might Berra have for action, aside from being generically evil," and in general tuned and constructed to interpret all he does in the worst possible light.

Each individual piece gets retconned into something worse, and the cumulative effect is then multiplied and amplified to justify still further condemnation.

I could go into detail that Jaffur's actions can be constituted as self-defense in the face of an aggressor attacking you with intent to kill, but I won't. I could go into detail of how when Jaffur was in his "crazed, ferocious, berserk" state he was able to subdue a superior opponent while restraining himself from lethal force, but I won't. I could talk about how Jaffur needed THERAPY not euthanasia, but I won't. I could talk about how the son should not bear the punishment for the sins of the father, but I won't.
1) You just did all the things you said you weren't doing. It is a rather silly exercise.
2) You're repeating "kill, kill, kill;" many of Jaffur's actions make sense only in the context of him trying to save himself from death, and you are ignoring the debate over whether or not Jaffur was saving himself from death.
3) ...Actually, since you discuss this part later I'm holding off for now.

And yes, I know Berra doesn't know better. I know. That's why I repress my hate. But why should I look at it from his flawed perspective? I expresses my personal opinion on it, looking at it from the perspective we are offered. Should I look back on the Holocaust from the perspective of a Nazi soldier in one of the death camps? That's analogous to what you want me to do.
No, no it is not.

I'm sorry, but there's a gap between what you think happened, what factually happened to the best of our knowledge, and an even wider gap between that and what Berra thinks happened.

Melodramatic comparisons to concentration camp guards don't work because concentration camp guards knew they were doing evil. Berra did not know that he was doing evil; he had considerable reason to believe he was doing good. And these are not contrived bullshit reasons like "securing the future of my ethnic group." No, they were very specific things like "if Jaffur can rage out and beat his own mother half to death, what the else can and will he do?" Or "if Jaffur, a child who just turned super-saiyan a few days ago, is reckless and aggressive enough to power up to defeat me, who can possibly restrain him? Who can stop him from breaking the Masquerade?" In general, who, exactly, was in any position to vouch for Jaffur's rationality and basic sanity?

If there was a deep underlying conspiracy to do evil unto Jaffur here, then it is very likely that this conspiracy manipulated Berra, tricked him into doing things no one else could have done, and that he himself would have preferred not to do. It is very possible that he is a lesser victim of the conspiracy, not one of its perpetrators.

But this all ties together. You are convinced that Jaffur is dead, or that Berra thought Sealing was a form of death. This leads to the conclusion that Berra wanted to kill Jaffur, which retroactively justifies Jaffur's extreme efforts to defeat Berra, which in turn brushes aside the questions that would be on others' minds about whether Jaffur was even sane given the combination of power, instability, and rage he had just shown. Which in turn brushes aside the question of whether Jaffur needed to be (or could be) restrained by any power on Garenhuld, if he should turn out to be a reckless threat to other beings or to the Masquerade. Which, looping back to the start, brushes aside questions of why Berra might want to take extreme steps to subdue Jaffur, other than simply "Berra is a sadistic evil monster who likes to do terrible things for no reason."

I really think you need to back up and start over from first principles, because it sounds like you've built up a framework of strong interlocking biases that has pulled you off course.
 
The questionable part of the Sealing is the personality lockdown, not just the illusion. That part actually is problematic; you can make a good case for Sealing being a thing that is very bad to do to someone.

But there's a whole separate philosophical argument in its own right that is required before we can then turn around and say something like "therefore, Sealing someone is as bad as killing them, and no decent person could imagine for a minute that something like that was needed in Jaffur's case, therefore Berra was plotting to murder innocent children for no reason at all, therefore I hate him he should die."
 
Do you consider Kakara to be be euthanizing herself everytime put her masque on to go to school?

Because Dandeers plan was to simply prevent that masque from being removed,
Which is why karkara has an entirely new personality each time her masque is removed? unless you think that Jaffur is supposed to be still around for Jaron.
 
Which is why karkara has an entirely new personality each time her masque is removed? unless you think that Jaffur is supposed to be still around for Jaron.

That was an accident though, not something that was meant to happen. A side effect of him being trapped in Super Saiyan as an unknown mage, practically an OCP in its own right. It

The human part isn't the issue. It's the "mental" and "permanent" parts.

Its not meant to be permanent, merely long enough to ensure they could get a decent treatment plan up to prevent the madness from spreading.
 
Do you consider Kakara to be be euthanizing herself everytime put her masque on to go to school?

Because Dandeers plan was to simply prevent that masque from being removed,
No it wasnt. The masque does not enforce the masquerade on the wearer. Dandeer's mask does. She erased the memories of the saiyan race from her husbands and sons mind, making them completely different people in the process.
 
No it wasnt. The masque does not enforce the masquerade on the wearer. .

Actually the Child version of the Masque, which is what Dandeer seemingly modified hers, does enforce the masquerade on the wearer until they are old enough to be responsible with the secret according to something Poptart said.
 
Actually the Child version of the Masque, which is what Dandeer seemingly modified hers, does enforce the masquerade on the wearer until they are old enough to be responsible with the secret according to something Poptart said.
And the child version of the masque cant be put on people with above human power levels. ie: its for kids 4 and under at the oldest.
 
Actually the Child version of the Masque, which is what Dandeer seemingly modified hers, does enforce the masquerade on the wearer until they are old enough to be responsible with the secret according to something Poptart said.
Okay, would you consider it a violation if the same thing that was done to Jaffur was done to you?
 
Its not meant to be permanent, merely long enough to ensure they could get a decent treatment plan up to prevent the madness from spreading.
Ah, yes it is? It's designed to be "indestructible" aka unable to be removed:
"You didn't learn it directly from my son? Good. I'd feared you'd found a way around the Seal, despite my efforts to make it indestructible. It is, but for a moment I was afraid I'd messed up."
And evidence it's intended to be permanent:
"Again, I Sealed him. While he slept, after...relieving his frustrations on me...I raised the apartments' wards, and wove a spell. He is human, now, locked in his Masque. And I have hidden the knowledge of his heritage away from him. He is no longer Vegeta, Lord of Clan Vegeta. He is simply Valentine Somerlad, a human who owns a small business, and loves his family dearly." She pauses, and takes a hitching breath. "He is calm. He loves us. And he is happy." Her voice breaks.
"Look at how broken we are, Berra," she says. "If this is all that we kept from Goku and Vegeta, their legacy isn't worth saving. Better that he forgets, forever, than keep on as he has been."

Dad stays silent for a long moment. "Say that I agree with you," he says, finally breaking the quiet. "Say that I think you're right. Why are you coming to me? Support against the Clan? There will be resentment over this."

"No." She collects herself, taking gasping breaths. "No, that's not why. Because I need your help to do that same...to Jaffur."
"His father has broken him, Berra. Whatever Jaffur was going to be, he's lost it now. I need to Seal him, too." She takes a breath. "Better a human son, than an insane one. Better that he can grow up and grow old, free of what his father has done to him. Let him be happy, Berra."
 
Gore, none of what you said indicates that the Seal is irreversible, as opposed to being a thing that Dandeer could reverse but chooses not to, and that others can't reverse because they lack her skills.

Nor does any of it indicate that any part of Jaffur's mind (or for that matter Lord Vegeta's mind) was supposed to be destroyed, as opposed to being put 'on ice.'

It would have been very easy for Dandeer to scramble Lord Vegeta's mind irreversibly, but she has given no indication that she actually did so. It would have been more difficult for Dandeer to scramble Jaffur's mind irreversibly, and we know she has not done so- Jaffur is still in full command of his faculties, it's just that those faculties are locked away inside his brain.
________________________

Just to be clear, I have no problem acknowledging that what was done to Jaffur was very wrong. It is very obvious to me that it was.

My point is simply that of the people involved in that process, the only one who really knew what she was doing, so far as we know, was Dandeer. Dandeer's skill as a magician means that she has unique power to do such things. Very few others can understand or even perceive exactly what she has done. So, other people who participated in the Sealing process knew only what Dandeer chose to tell them.

We know roughly what Dandeer told Berra. A decent man listening to Dandeer, one who had watched Lord Vegeta descend into madness and abuse towards his wife and son, might very well be tempted to believe Dandeer and take her at her word. Especially when Dandeer came on her own person bearing the marks of the terrible injuries that (we are told) were inflicted upon her by Jaffur in a fit of rage.

Berra did not have to be an evil man to believe that Sealing was the best option for what he had reason to think Jaffur had become. Restraining a super-saiyan is virtually impossible, especially on a planet where so few other super-saiyans exist. If Jaffur truly was violently insane, the only options for restraining him physically would involve, say, amputating his arms and legs and wrapping him in steel. You may recall that this is exactly what the current Vegetan patriarch did to an entire house of super-saiyan prisoners in order to restrain them, prior to killing them all one by one. And an act like that is just about as ghastly as mind control, from the point of view of the typical person trying to think of humane ways to deal with an insane child.

Physical restraint is basically out of the question; there is virtually nothing a super-saiyan cannot burn or break through given time and concentration and a body that isn't utterly crippled. That leaves magical restraint- something very like the Seal, which at least permits Jaffur to have some kind of psychologically normal experiences while people figure out what the hell to do with him.

...

Again, this is not me saying that Sealing was objectively justified in Jaffur's case. This is me saying that Berra can be a decent human being worthy of respect and forgiveness, and still have thought Sealing was justified in that case.

Sealing is not such a unique and transcendent horror that you have to be a monster to consider doing it to someone, when the alternatives are straight-up murdering them, or locking them in an oubliette as a quadruple amputee.
 
Sealing is not such a unique and transcendent horror
It kind of is though. Being forced to watch your life being lived by someone else unable to do anything but watch. even in Vegeta's case it's basically turning someone into a slave unable to question unable to resist whatever you want them to do. Life can be taken but such a casual violation Is the sort of thing that takes months of ethics council meetings even when it's for the seel-ees own good.

In Jaffur's case it's Torturing someone until they aren't capable of rational thought.
 
Gore, none of what you said indicates that the Seal is irreversible, as opposed to being a thing that Dandeer could reverse but chooses not to, and that others can't reverse because they lack her skills.
You mistake me saying "permanent" with "irreversible". Dandeer intends the thing to be permanent, so attempts to make it as irreversible for others as possible.
Nor does any of it indicate that any part of Jaffur's mind (or for that matter Lord Vegeta's mind) was supposed to be destroyed, as opposed to being put 'on ice.'

It would have been very easy for Dandeer to scramble Lord Vegeta's mind irreversibly, but she has given no indication that she actually did so. It would have been more difficult for Dandeer to scramble Jaffur's mind irreversibly, and we know she has not done so- Jaffur is still in full command of his faculties, it's just that those faculties are locked away inside his brain.
Jaffur wasn't, to our knowledge, an intended result. The intended result was, to our knowledge, complete erasure of anything and everything "saiyan" as part of their psychological and physiological make-up.
Berra did not have to be an evil man to believe that Sealing was the best option for what he had reason to think Jaffur had become. Restraining a super-saiyan is virtually impossible, especially on a planet where so few other super-saiyans exist. If Jaffur truly was violently insane, the only options for restraining him physically would involve, say, amputating his arms and legs and wrapping him in steel. You may recall that this is exactly what the current Vegetan patriarch did to an entire house of super-saiyan prisoners in order to restrain them, prior to killing them all one by one. And an act like that is just about as ghastly as mind control, from the point of view of the typical person trying to think of humane ways to deal with an insane child.

Physical restraint is basically out of the question; there is virtually nothing a super-saiyan cannot burn or break through given time and concentration and a body that isn't utterly crippled. That leaves magical restraint- something very like the Seal, which at least permits Jaffur to have some kind of psychologically normal experiences while people figure out what the hell to do with him.
Except that there is a variety of different ways to have pacified him while they figure out what to do. Dandeer outright said during her talk that she managed to erase his memories and send to him bed.

Instead, they went straight for the lobotomy.
Sealing is not such a unique and transcendent horror that you have to be a monster to consider doing it to someone, when the alternatives are straight-up murdering them, or locking them in an oubliette as a quadruple amputee.
False dilemna. I can think of at least three different ways to improve the situation without having to resort to such measures off the top of my head:
1) Use a spell to help keep him calm, much like how various drugs are used IRL to keep people mentally balanced.
2) Use a spell to dull the trauma he's experienced. Similar to above, but dealing with the issue more directly.
3) Use a spell to send him into a dreamless sleep/coma for awhile if things have gotten that bad. Undesirable, true, but temporary.
 
Why erase his memories of all saiyans when the could have instead erased his shitty memories of his father?

No, dandeer is crazy but she was intelligent enough to get it done quickly so no holes could be poked in her plan.
 
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