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Dragon Ball: After the End

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KInruush said:
I would like to note that Kakara already is actively working against her father to free Jaffur.
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And I'm only okay with that particular specific course of action because of a combination of our decision that the Sealing was wrong, remarks from Gohan, and knowledge we've accumulated after the fact.
But just because I, myself, am okay with working against Berra in the realm of freeing Jaffur while saving Jaron, does not mean I am okay with or support doing so in all other arenas.

1.) I don't believe we the collective player base are inherently smarter and more competent than him.
2.) I don't believe Berra is working from malicious intent or the like.
3.) I do believe it's possible for Berra to have made an incorrect/wrong decision for the right reasons (I feel like @PoptartProdigy has dropped some gigantic hints in our lap that this may be the case).
4.) I do believe it's possible for us to oppose one thing he does while supporting other things.
5.) I do believe Berra is a good person, or at the very least is trying to be good and do the right thing, which makes up for a lot.
6.) I fundamentally don't want to take part in a Quest where the attitude shifts to "**** him we totes know better he should die" just because of the Sealing and because our full-grown adult father doesn't always share anything and everything with his 11-year-old daughter.
 
KnightDisciple said:
And I'm only okay with that particular specific course of action because of a combination of our decision that the Sealing was wrong, remarks from Gohan, and knowledge we've accumulated after the fact.
But just because I, myself, am okay with working against Berra in the realm of freeing Jaffur while saving Jaron, does not mean I am okay with or support doing so in all other arenas.

1.) I don't believe we the collective player base are inherently smarter and more competent than him.
2.) I don't believe Berra is working from malicious intent or the like.
3.) I do believe it's possible for Berra to have made an incorrect/wrong decision for the right reasons (I feel like @PoptartProdigy has dropped some gigantic hints in our lap that this may be the case).
4.) I do believe it's possible for us to oppose one thing he does while supporting other things.
5.) I do believe Berra is a good person, or at the very least is trying to be good and do the right thing, which makes up for a lot.
6.) I fundamentally don't want to take part in a Quest where the attitude shifts to "**** him we totes know better he should die" just because of the Sealing and because our full-grown adult father doesn't always share anything and everything with his 11-year-old daughter.
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I find those all to be reasonable positions to hold. I will, however, say that as Berra is not infallible, we'll have to decide as we go when we should agree with him, when we should oppose him, and when we should bite our tongues even when we know he's wrong. I think right now people are a little predisposed to seeing his faults than usual, but I trust that we won't shift outright to "pointless teenage rebellion." I will say, however, that while Berra may, particularly from his perspective, have plenty of good reasons for not sharing his plans with his 11-year-old daughter, I am bothered when we are involved in those plans without full information available to make good decisions.
 
I kind of agree with @KnightDisciple but I also want to add that I didn't feel like he was scolding us. He was acknowledging what happened and that we are not a warrior and telling us that it is ok not to be one. I mean, if he tells us we failed because we are not a warrior and then later tells us that it is ok not to be one and that we shouldn't let the opinions of others decide how we run our live or what we want to be; isn't he basicaly telling us that while we failed at this it wasn't our fault and that not only he doesn't blame us but that we shouldn't blame ourselves? That we shouldn't beat ourselves being who we are?
 
KInruush said:
I find those all to be reasonable positions to hold. I will, however, say that as Berra is not infallible, we'll have to decide as we go when we should agree with him, when we should oppose him, and when we should bite our tongues even when we know he's wrong. I think right now people are a little predisposed to seeing his faults than usual, but I trust that we won't shift outright to "pointless teenage rebellion." I will say, however, that while Berra may, particularly from his perspective, have plenty of good reasons for not sharing his plans with his 11-year-old daughter, I am bothered when we are involved in those plans without full information available to make good decisions.
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Okay, why do people keep telling me Berra's not infallible?
I mean, my 3rd point says it's entirely possible for him to mess up.
I don't get what you're trying to argue against?
 
KaintukeeBob said:
I don't really read it as scolding. It's a military-esque failure analysis. It's a learning moment, with a mild rebuke. Pretty much all of it was couched in, "You will do better next time, consider these factors that could have helped you plan better this time."
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I actually agree. But I'm trying to explain what appears (to Poptart) to be a near-inexplicable surge of hostility against Berra. Thus, I'm trying to analyze the motives of people whose irritation with Berra is comparatively great. That is, those who are rather more upset with him than you are. ;)
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Maya, he says. It's the same reason I've kept my own power level so low. I'll explain later. You can go as high as you've shown her, maybe twenty thousand over if you think she won't sense it. I have to go now -- coordinating reinforcements. Put an end to this, Kakara.
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We love our father and assume he loves us. Therefore we assume he must have had a very good reason to order us to face an alien with our power level half as strong as it. We have to assume a good reason or assume he doesn't care about us.

PoptartProdigy said:
Kakara! says Dad, re-establishing the link. Take him down before she arrives! I don't care how you do it or if you need to show more power than you have before; we need him down and out of sight before she gets here!
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Now he counter manned that order because something else is taking higher priority. However we must still assume that his orginal reason for risking our life is important. Therefore because we love and trust our father we work hard and go against our own principals to try and secure both objectives for him.
 
To be fair, if we HAD followed the countermanding order to the letter (say, by going to half a million or a million and foisting it off as Dangerous Willpower Burning Technique)... Everything would probably have been fine.

The problem isn't that the orders themselves were bad or even unclear. It was simply a case of "order, counterorder, disorder." Two commands given in rapid succession that contradict each other sometimes result in the soldier on the ground (Kakara) trying to follow both orders at once, and as a result failing to fully carry out either order.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
I'm not really concerned about blame, although the distinction you're drawing is appreciated; I'm wondering how the order/counter-order business was sufficiently confusing that readers with multiple days to consider options and re-read the update got tripped by it.
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Well, when Dad said
PoptartProdigy said:
Kakara! says Dad, re-establishing the link. Take him down before she arrives! I don't care how you do it or if you need to show more power than you have before; we need him down and out of sight before she gets here!
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I didn't take "If you need to show more power than before" as a complete removal of all power level restrictions, probably at least in part because every time I read that order, less than 30 seconds prior I also read the order to keep our own power level restricted. I hadn't thought about it in the terms @Simon_Jester explained, but when making/discussing the plan I was definitely under the impression that not only was there at least a "soft" cap on what power level we could use, but that lower was better - it just didn't necessarily have to be so low as previously. Which I suppose is a case of trying to understand a nuanced order?
 
PoptartProdigy said:
at what point have I failed to communicate that the character speaking considers their new directives to be unquestionably of a higher priority than their old ones, and that the old ones ought be disregarded? Because while I'm a fan of unreliable narrator, it would be very frustrating for us both if I stuck with it to the point of failing to communicate a character's intent when they have an Exceptional Communication skill.

I'm not sure how I could have put it more clearly, but demonstratively, there's a mismatch.
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PoptartProdigy said:
I'm not really concerned about blame, although the distinction you're drawing is appreciated; I'm wondering how the order/counter-order business was sufficiently confusing that readers with multiple days to consider options and re-read the update got tripped by it.
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Basically? For clearest communication, I would have expected Berra to throw in a "Forget what I said before, use as much power as you think you need."

We might still have some people wanting to do minimal, but as @Simon_Jester so thoroughly explained and expanded on, it's not actually super clear that we are being told the old order no longer applies.

Personally, it read like a sense of urgency and maybe some slackening of restrictions, but not a 'your new priority over hiding your power entirely is beat him'.
 
Same sentiment here (although I don't remember if this was the post before or after I joined the quest).

It's understandable that Berra made the mistake of letting an "Order, Counter-order, Disorder" situation occur, since while he may have a high communication he probably doesn't have that much military command experience/knowledge (and why would he in a system dependent on champion based combat where he is the champion). While he may have come across it in theoretical study of command, it really isn't something that sinks in until you experience everything going tits up because of it (like this situation).
 
I think the simpler thing is that...how often does Berra actually encounter a problem where his first attempt doesn't solve it and he has to IMMEDIATELY solve it in a different way rather than use the same way but harder, or simply intervening personally?
 
@PoptartProdigy, have you thought about halving the turn length from 1 year to half a year? To me it seems like things are moving too fast, the biggest example being how long Jaffur's been trapped. It doesn't feel narratively right that he's been trapped for that long. It certainly wouldn't be if this was an anime, which is how I'm imagining the story in my head.
 
Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, have you thought about halving the turn length from 1 year to half a year? To me it seems like things are moving too fast, the biggest example being how long Jaffur's been trapped. It doesn't feel narratively right that he's been trapped for that long. It certainly wouldn't be if this was an anime, which is how I'm imagining the story in my head.
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*laughs for no reason at all*:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, have you thought about halving the turn length from 1 year to half a year? To me it seems like things are moving too fast, the biggest example being how long Jaffur's been trapped. It doesn't feel narratively right that he's been trapped for that long. It certainly wouldn't be if this was an anime, which is how I'm imagining the story in my head.
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The thing with that though is that freeing Jaffur is a complicated thing (with Jaron being an actual person, his mom being a master sorcerer, Jaffur being a sorcerer, POLITICS*, needing to oppose our father, there's an Out of Context problem going on, ect). We just found out about a method that will free him, but it will take time to implement, and we don't want to spring the plan to free him while the OOC problem is going on (ignoring the fact that the others have more time to consolidate support for us as we wait).

* Stressed for the emphasis on how annoying they are and the massive complication they represent.


Time to read through the thread to learn what I need for the comments section of Jaffur Quests
 
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*Aquabrand name votes some poster with a big, well reasoned post*

I feel like that describes like half or more my recent quest votes in general.
 
Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, have you thought about halving the turn length from 1 year to half a year? To me it seems like things are moving too fast, the biggest example being how long Jaffur's been trapped. It doesn't feel narratively right that he's been trapped for that long. It certainly wouldn't be if this was an anime, which is how I'm imagining the story in my head.
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That's why the anime would start as a slice of life around Jaron, them be Magical Girl antics with Maya, and only goes full Dragon Ball when the Seal Breaking is happening.
 
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