Dragon Ball: After the End

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

Even if it's not THAT kind of sensitive zone, it's still going to be hella vulnerable and sensitive, which makes it a fairly intimate area to be touched.

Kakara, specifically, may have deliberately desensitized herself to injury to her tail, through the demented decision to study what has to be the saiyan equivalent of Iron Crotch Kung-Fu, but still.

Just how much would you have to trust someone, to be willing to let them touch your eyeball for an extended period of time? For me, that list runs "my doctor, my wife, that's about it."

PoptartProdigy said:
*cocks head*

What critical information did he withhold? He told you what to do and then told you to do whatever was necessary to achieve it. The fact that the players still decided only to go to 200,000 and got caught out by the transformation had nothing to do with his instructions. I mean, ordinarily I don't like to give input to discussion like this, but I'm honestly confused as to where Berra withholding information appears to have directly contributed to Kakara eating a loss just now.

The problem is that Kakara and we the voters suddenly found out that at Berra's direction, "we" were trying to stay at low power levels, even to the extent of putting Cabba's life in danger against a far more powerful opponent.

This caused people to interpret "use the minimum amount of power required" as a high priority, since we had reason to think Berra considered this priority to be on par with, say, Cabba's life.

And since there was no time to question Berra on this matter further, the sudden, unexpected revelation of just how low a level our warriors were fighting at had a destabilizing effect.

I can imagine a similar process going on inside Kakara's head, too.

NegativeJ · Apr 7, 2017

Did I hear LOVE?

Bakkasama · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
when touched wrong, it hurts a whole hell of a lot, then when touched right...

Yep. Pretty intimate gesture. Only for those you trust the most.

Sucal · Apr 7, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Kakara, specifically, may have deliberately desensitized herself to injury to her tail, through the demented decision to study what has to be the saiyan equivalent of Iron Crotch Kung-Fu, but still.

Sensitised herself to the good touch as well!

NegativeJ · Apr 7, 2017

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

Look, vaguely creepy stuff aside, the point is simply that nobody in their right mind invites a friend to touch their eyeball or put their hands on their neck as a gesture of trust.

We instinctively react very defensively to anyone getting anywhere near those areas, on a bone-deep level, because we've got millions of generations of sentient and animal ancestors for whom protecting body parts like the eye and throat from injury was literally a matter of life and death.

PoptartProdigy · Apr 7, 2017

Got a vote tally and vote close in this one, which is why I didn't spoiler the following to avoid an OP word-count alert.

NegativeJ said:

Exactly. Thus, not recommended.

Gore17 said:
Because he didn't explain why he placed restrictions in the first place, meaning the players interpreted things as "he had a very good reason to do it, and mimizing how high we go is important". This is supported, by their PoV, of Berra originally ordering only 20% more then previously shown if we thought she wouldn't sense it, when he was aware we were facing an experienced enemy with a PL of 150,000+.

Basically, if Berra is willing to risk serious injury, or even death of a scout and his daughter, then it's presumably majorly important.

Simon_Jester said:
The problem is that Kakara and we the voters suddenly found out that at Berra's direction, "we" were trying to stay at low power levels, even to the extent of putting Cabba's life in danger against a far more powerful opponent.

This caused people to interpret "use the minimum amount of power required" as a high priority, since we had reason to think Berra considered this priority to be on par with, say, Cabba's life.

And since there was no time to question Berra on this matter further, the sudden, unexpected revelation of just how low a level our warriors were fighting at had a destabilizing effect.

I can imagine a similar process going on inside Kakara's head, too.

...hm. Okay. Brainstorming for the thread:

When I write the words,

PoptartProdigy said:
Kakara! says Dad, re-establishing the link. Take him down before she arrives! I don't care how you do it or if you need to show more power than you have before; we need him down and out of sight before she gets here!

at what point have I failed to communicate that the character speaking considers their new directives to be unquestionably of a higher priority than their old ones, and that the old ones ought be disregarded? Because while I'm a fan of unreliable narrator, it would be very frustrating for us both if I stuck with it to the point of failing to communicate a character's intent when they have an Exceptional Communication skill.

I'm not sure how I could have put it more clearly, but demonstratively, there's a mismatch.

Andres110 said:
I always thought of it as an eye. If you squeeze someone's eye, it hurts a lot, but just pressing on it doesn't do anything.

I mean...I mind that a whole hell of a lot.

Bakkasama said:
Yep. Pretty intimate gesture. Only for those you trust the most.

My saiyans are not so sanguine about ripping one of their limbs off. And I would hesitate to assign Piccolo's actions regarding tails any level of significance, given that he lacks one.

And I think I'll call that vote closed.

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 427 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.5

[X] Full disclosure. Surely you can convince Dad to cast away the Masquerade your people have maintained for centuries for not terribly much reason at all, right? Well, once you do, go walk back upstairs without a Masque on, and start explaining.
No. of Votes: 15

Sucal
00mega
alid610
Astaroh-M
Bakkasama
Blonddude42
fictionfan
Gore17
Helper-San
KaintukeeBob
Katsuragi
KInruush
NegativeJ
Ridiculously Average Guy
spikethehobbit

[x] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.
No. of Votes: 12

Aranfan
ChildishChimera
DarknessSmiles
Happerry
KnightDisciple
RideTheWalrus
Rihtan
Simon_Jester
strauss
Tarantio
Terrabrand
Wheenesss

Total No. of Voters: 28

As warned, nested votes were struck from this tally. [X] Full Disclosure wins anyway. Congrats to the folks who managed the near-impossible, and overturned a bandwagon!

I'm going to be very busy today. The home needs cleaning and only one person in it has two functioning arms (guess who?

). So, don't expect the update until this evening (12+ hours from now) at the very earliest.

NegativeJ · Apr 7, 2017

YES! YES! YES!

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
...hm. Okay. Brainstorming for the thread:

When I write the words...

at what point have I failed to communicate that the character speaking considers their new directives to be unquestionably of a higher priority than their old ones, and that the old ones ought be disregarded? Because while I'm a fan of unreliable narrator, it would be very frustrating for us both if I stuck with it to the point of failing to communicate a character's intent when they have an Exceptional Communication skill.

I'm not sure how I could have put it more clearly, but demonstratively, there's a mismatch.

I actually have an explanation for this, and it's not something I'm blaming you for OOC, it's a bit complicated. I'll post it in a minute or two.

PoptartProdigy · Apr 7, 2017

Also, given that this one is a big one, with complicated but demonstratively strong feelings behind it...

...you all get to roll the Communication check to sell this to Berra. d100. I'm not touching this one.

DarknessSmiles · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
Also, given that this one is a big one, with complicated but demonstratively strong feelings behind it...

...you all get to roll the Communication check to sell this to Berra. d100. I'm not touching this one.

You are cruel. Someone else can do it.

Gore17 · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
...hm. Okay. Brainstorming for the thread:

When I write the words,

at what point have I failed to communicate that the character speaking considers their new directives to be unquestionably of a higher priority than their old ones, and that the old ones ought be disregarded? Because while I'm a fan of unreliable narrator, it would be very frustrating for us both if I stuck with it to the point of failing to communicate a character's intent when they have an Exceptional Communication skill.

I'm not sure how I could have put it more clearly, but demonstratively, there's a mismatch.

I understood it, and I understand how others took it, but I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion I'm afraid.

PoptartProdigy said:
Also, given that this one is a big one, with complicated but demonstratively strong feelings behind it...

...you all get to roll the Communication check to sell this to Berra. d100. I'm not touching this one.

Is that each, or...?

PoptartProdigy · Apr 7, 2017

Gore17 said:
I understood it, and I understand how others took it, but I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion I'm afraid.

Is that each, or...?

"Each?" It's just one check to sell Full Disclosure to him.

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

RE: THE POWER LEVEL THING

Okay. @PoptartProdigy , there is an expression common in English-speaking militaries: "Order, counter-order, disorder."

What this refers to is a very common phenomenon in hierarchies where if the top authority issues an order, and then issues a second order that overrides or cancels or contradicts the first order, the result will be a chaotic situation that may not reflect the intended outcome of either of the first two orders.

Anyone who's ever worked for a bureaucracy will have seen this happen in civilian life. But "order, counterorder, disorder" is especially important for soldiers in contact with the enemy. Because recognizing that an order has been given, that it was a valid order, but that it is now nevertheless to be ignored (partly or entirely) in favor of a second order that overrides it... That is a nuanced decision. It takes some mental processing power for most people to get it right, especially when distracted by being in imminent personal danger or having friends who are risking their lives.

In short, soldiers in contact with the enemy stink at making nuanced decisions, and when they try to do so, they tend to get it wrong. Issuing two orders that contradict each other forces your soldiers to make nuanced decisions, and is therefore a very bad idea.

In this case, in effect, I suspect that many voters learned about Berra having given an order ("stay at low power levels, even it puts you in more danger") at the same time* we** received a different order directly ("do whatever it takes but end this quickly"). And, like a lot of soldiers throughout history, we tried to carry out both orders at once. Which, as with those many historical soldiers, resulted in a muddled situation and a bad outcome.
____________

*As in, during the same decision-making cycle, the same process of observing the situation, orienting ourselves within it, and deciding what to do about it.

**I didn't actually vote on this plan as I recall, so maybe I shouldn't use 'we,' but I think I understand what happened and I know I could have easily wound up voting for the plan that went south. I have no claim to be superior to anyone who did vote for that plan.

This is one reason why it is normally good military practice to make sure your soldiers are thoroughly briefed well in advance on everything you CAN prepare them for in advance. That way, they have time to fully assimilate all the known facts and battle plans, so that you don't have to go in and tell them "Do this! No, quick, do that instead!" when they're in contact with the enemy and are in no shape to make nuanced decisions. Instead, they already know that the plan WAS "do this," and can be much more clear about how you're telling them "well, this was the plan, but we have to change it due to this thing you know as well as I do was NOT part of the original plan."

That doesn't fully inoculate your troops against "order, counterorder, disorder," but it works a lot better than the mushroom treatment of leaving your troops in the dark and feeding them manure. Berra did not, in this case, follow the "brief your soldiers" practice with Kakara; he followed the mushroom treatment.

There are a number of understandable reasons that could have happened. Maybe because he was thinking like a father expecting obedience from his little daughter, and not like a general briefing his troops. Maybe because he was thinking like a king or a politician and focusing on "who needs to know what secrets" instead of "what do my troops need to know to carry out orders in a combat situation?"

This is the kind of mistake that plenty of real life commanders could or would have made in a similar situation, by the way. I don't think we should be resentful of Berra for making it in-character. Nor do I think you should be blamed for it OOC.

But it does involve confusion about our priorities being a factor, and it did result in a bad situation.

I hope that clears up my position a bit.

Gore17 · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
"Each?" It's just one check to sell Full Disclosure to him.

Pity, because I think I blew it.

But also the language used was unclear/confusing.

PoptartProdigy · Apr 7, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
RE: THE POWER LEVEL THING

Okay. @PoptartProdigy , there is an expression common in English-speaking militaries: "Order, counter-order, disorder."

What this refers to is a very common phenomenon in hierarchies where if the top authority issues an order, and then issues a second order that overrides or cancels or contradicts the first order, the result will be a chaotic situation that may not reflect the intended outcome of either of the first two orders.

Anyone who's ever worked for a bureaucracy will have seen this happen in civilian life. But "order, counterorder, disorder" is especially important for soldiers in contact with the enemy. Because recognizing that an order has been given, that it was a valid order, but that it is now nevertheless to be ignored (partly or entirely) in favor of a second order that overrides it... That is a nuanced decision. It takes some mental processing power for most people to get it right, especially when distracted by being in imminent personal danger or having friends who are risking their lives.

In short, soldiers in contact with the enemy stink at making nuanced decisions, and when they try to do so, they tend to get it wrong. Issuing two orders that contradict each other forces your soldiers to make nuanced decisions, and is therefore a very bad idea.

In this case, in effect, we learned about Berra having given an order ("stay at low power levels, even it puts you in more danger") at the same time we received a different order directly ("do whatever it takes but end this quickly"). And, like a lot of soldiers throughout history, we tried to carry out both orders at once. Which, as with those many historical soldiers, resulted in a muddled situation and a bad outcome.
___________

This is one reason why it is normally good military practice to make sure your soldiers are thoroughly briefed well in advance on everything you CAN prepare them for in advance. That way, they have time to fully assimilate all the known facts and battle plans, so that you don't have to go in and tell them "Do this! No, quick, do that instead!" when they're in contact with the enemy and are in no shape to make nuanced decisions. Instead, they already know that the plan WAS "do this," and can be much more clear about how you're telling them "well, this was the plan, but we have to change it due to this thing you know as well as I do was NOT part of the original plan."

That doesn't fully inoculate your troops against "order, counterorder, disorder," but it works a lot better than the mushroom treatment of leaving your troops in the dark and feeding them manure. Berra did not, in this case, follow the "brief your soldiers" practice with Kakara; he followed the mushroom treatment.

There are a number of understandable reasons that could have happened. Maybe because he was thinking like a father expecting obedience from his little daughter, and not like a general briefing his troops. Maybe because he was thinking like a king or a politician and focusing on "who needs to know what secrets" instead of "what do my troops need to know to carry out orders in a combat situation?"

This is the kind of mistake that plenty of real life commanders could or would have made in a similar situation, by the way. I don't think we should be resentful of Berra for making it in-character. Nor do I think you should be blamed for it OOC.

But it does involve confusion about our priorities being a factor, and it did result in a bad situation.

I hope that clears up my position a bit.

I'm not really concerned about blame, although the distinction you're drawing is appreciated; I'm wondering how the order/counter-order business was sufficiently confusing that readers with multiple days to consider options and re-read the update got tripped by it.

Sucal · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
I'm not really concerned about blame, although the distinction you're drawing is appreciated; I'm wondering how the order/counter-order business was sufficiently confusing that readers with multiple days to consider options and re-read the update got tripped by it.

Eh, we get trapped in Tunnel Vision sometimes. Focusing on the option we want best rather then finding an alternate compromise.

Gore17 · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
I'm not really concerned about blame, although the distinction you're drawing is appreciated; I'm wondering how the order/counter-order business was sufficiently confusing that readers with multiple days to consider options and re-read the update got tripped by it.

Because he didn't say to ignore his previous order, or give proper guidelines of how high we could/should go.

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
I'm not really concerned about blame, although the distinction you're drawing is appreciated; I'm wondering how the order/counter-order business was sufficiently confusing that readers with multiple days to consider options and re-read the update got tripped by it.

In addition to the reasons given by others:

Because OOC, we all individually read an update in only a few minutes. So the effect is still there- in effect we are given two conflicting priorities, in quick succession. We know one is probably more important than the other, and we're told to figure out which one is more important and strike the correct balance.

Even if the answer seems obvious, it may not in fact BE obvious. Sure, in theory any one of us could have reread the update and formed new and different opinions about the relative importance of Berra's first and second orders. But in practice, a lot of people don't do that.

Remember, the problem with "order, counterorder, disorder" is that two conflicting in orders in rapid succession tend to cause the troops to make objectively bad decisions. Decisions caused by people either assigning too much weight to the first order, or not enough to the second, or trying to improvise a way to achieve both goals at once, or trying to hedge their bets in case the 'unimportant' order turns out to be important after all...

Again, this results in decisions that are just plain objectively bad, and they may even seem downright stupid in hindsight. My point is not that it should happen. It's that it does happen.

Furthermore, looking at it IC, Kakara herself received both orders within a short span of time, so it would be perfectly reasonable for her, in character, to be conflicted and have the same problem we did when voting on a course of action for her to pursue.

...

Now, this remains a valid cautionary tale- we need to be careful to look for evidence that one goal should override another in our own planning. I know I'll try to.

spikethehobbit · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
*cocks head*

What critical information did he withhold? He told you what to do and then told you to do whatever was necessary to achieve it. The fact that the players still decided only to go to 200,000 and got caught out by the transformation had nothing to do with his instructions. I mean, ordinarily I don't like to give input to discussion like this, but I'm honestly confused as to where Berra withholding information appears to have directly contributed to Kakara eating a loss just now.

NOT recommended. I model that as a very intimate gesture by the Exiles, considering how sensitive tails are. To be relatively tasteful with the why: if, when touched wrong, it hurts a whole hell of a lot, then when touched right...

@Simon_Jester explained it far better than I ever could. I honestly didn't understand my own reaction to that depth, but he explained it exactly. Kudos to him.

I don't expect Maya to understand that, and humans do have a tendency to stroke tails. Depending on how the conversations go, if Maya is that upset, and Kakara is feeling rebellious, I can see her going along with it just to mess with her dad. That said, while I expected it wouldn't be considered appropriate, I didn't think it would be that extreme.

KnightDisciple · Apr 7, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
Got a vote tally and vote close in this one, which is why I didn't spoiler the following to avoid an OP word-count alert.

Exactly. Thus, not recommended.

...hm. Okay. Brainstorming for the thread:

When I write the words,

at what point have I failed to communicate that the character speaking considers their new directives to be unquestionably of a higher priority than their old ones, and that the old ones ought be disregarded? Because while I'm a fan of unreliable narrator, it would be very frustrating for us both if I stuck with it to the point of failing to communicate a character's intent when they have an Exceptional Communication skill.

I'm not sure how I could have put it more clearly, but demonstratively, there's a mismatch.

I mean...I mind that a whole hell of a lot.

My saiyans are not so sanguine about ripping one of their limbs off. And I would hesitate to assign Piccolo's actions regarding tails any level of significance, given that he lacks one.

And I think I'll call that vote closed.

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 427 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.5

[X] Full disclosure. Surely you can convince Dad to cast away the Masquerade your people have maintained for centuries for not terribly much reason at all, right? Well, once you do, go walk back upstairs without a Masque on, and start explaining.
No. of Votes: 15

Sucal
00mega
alid610
Astaroh-M
Bakkasama
Blonddude42
fictionfan
Gore17
Helper-San
KaintukeeBob
Katsuragi
KInruush
NegativeJ
Ridiculously Average Guy
spikethehobbit

[x] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.
No. of Votes: 12

Aranfan
ChildishChimera
DarknessSmiles
Happerry
KnightDisciple
RideTheWalrus
Rihtan
Simon_Jester
strauss
Tarantio
Terrabrand
Wheenesss

Total No. of Voters: 28

As warned, nested votes were struck from this tally. [X] Full Disclosure wins anyway. Congrats to the folks who managed the near-impossible, and overturned a bandwagon!

I'm going to be very busy today. The home needs cleaning and only one person in it has two functioning arms (guess who? ). So, don't expect the update until this evening (12+ hours from now) at the very earliest.

The "issue" with Berra is that he had not already explained the entire, full text of his plan that included the aspects of "fighters stay at 80k and under". That is, as I understand it, the core "problem", that we did not know all aspects of not only the What, but the Why.

I almost wrote something snarky and passive-aggressive here, but suffice to say I don't agree with that viewpoint and would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. Because I don't want to play in a Quest where the character is actively working against their father when their father isn't Vegeta Vegeta, Vegetan Lord of Clan Vegeta of the Vegetan Saiyans.

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

Well, if we're looking at why there's some irritation with Berra among the voters, the issue breaks down into pieces.
1) There is a perception that Berra withheld important tactical information from Kakara AND
2) There is a perception that this was a contributing element in us putting a foot badly wrong in our tactical decisions in the fight with the scout, AND
3) There is a perception that Berra is scolding us for putting our foot wrong, AND
4) Consequently, as per the above, he's scolding us for failing in a way that was partly because of his own actions

I think that if the fight with the scout had gone well, so that (2) was not in play, or if Berra didn't see this as a chance to teach Kakara a lesson in 'her bad judgment' so that (3), and (4) were not in play... there would be less irritation with Berra.

Gore17 · Apr 7, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Well, if we're looking at why there's some irritation with Berra among the voters, the issue breaks down into pieces.
1) There is a perception that Berra withheld important tactical information from Kakara AND
2) There is a perception that this was a contributing element in us putting a foot badly wrong in our tactical decisions in the fight with the scout, AND
3) There is a perception that Berra is scolding us for putting our foot wrong, AND
4) Consequently, as per the above, he's scolding us for failing in a way that was partly because of his own actions

I think that if the fight with the scout had gone well, so that (2) was not in play, or if Berra didn't see this as a chance to teach Kakara a lesson in 'her bad judgment' so that (3), and (4) were not in play... there would be less irritation with Berra.

Berra was acting as an author mouthpiece for (3).

Kinruush · Apr 7, 2017

KnightDisciple said:
I almost wrote something snarky and passive-aggressive here, but suffice to say I don't agree with that viewpoint and would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. Because I don't want to play in a Quest where the character is actively working against their father when their father isn't Vegeta Vegeta, Vegetan Lord of Clan Vegeta of the Vegetan Saiyans.

I would like to note that Kakara already is actively working against her father to free Jaffur.

KaintukeeBob · Apr 7, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
3) There is a perception that Berra is scolding us for putting our foot wrong, AND

I don't really read it as scolding. It's a military-esque failure analysis. It's a learning moment, with a mild rebuke. Pretty much all of it was couched in, "You will do better next time, consider these factors that could have helped you plan better this time."

Dragon Ball: After the End

LOVE

There is always a greater fool

The Devil’s Cut

LOVE

Lawful Evil

LOVE

Lawful Evil

Lawful Evil

Lawful Evil

The Devil’s Cut

Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.

Who?