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Part of the problem with Dandeer is that we don't know how much of what she says is true, how much is lies, and how much is delusion. Vegeta is clearly abusive, and as horrible as it is, magical lobotomy might be the only way they can contain him, due to his power level. However, it was done without trial, without evidence, and without any opportunity for him to answer the charges. Bear in mind what she has done is equivalent to Babylon 5's "death of personality", which is a form of capital punishment. Jaffur is also a victim here, and was given the same sentence as his father, again without any opportunity to defend himself. To put this bluntly, Dandeer magically lobotomized both her husband and son so she could live her fantasy life. This is inexcusable, and Berra is a party to her crime.
 
My point is simply that of the people involved in that process, the only one who really knew what she was doing, so far as we know, was Dandeer. Dandeer's skill as a magician means that she has unique power to do such things. Very few others can understand or even perceive exactly what she has done. So, other people who participated in the Sealing process knew only what Dandeer chose to tell them.
I think you're saying that Berra thinks the Sealing is meant to be temporary? For Jaffur at least.
The problem with that is it only puts off the problem until later. As far as Berra and Dandeer were/are aware, the Sealing would result in Jaffur being asleep, with Jaron being the sole occupant of his mind. That doesn't keep him in place for you to try and solve his perceived psych issues, that just keeps him in stasis until you unseal him again. I doubt Berra would think of that as being a reasonable plan, not to mention Dandeer seemingly has no intention of unsealing him.

As much as we want to keep the Conspiracy a secret from Dad, I think it might be worth the risk to try talking to him and flat-out ask him why he thinks Sealing Jaffur was/is a good plan. Our Communication is good (although our Deceit probably isn't good enough just yet to not accidentally reveal something). We already opposed him during the Sealing, so he knows we disagreed at the time.

Although this spat with the Scout will make it difficult to find a good time to talk to him about it. Damn inconvenient of them.
 
I think you're saying that Berra thinks the Sealing is meant to be temporary? For Jaffur at least.
The problem with that is it only puts off the problem until later. As far as Berra and Dandeer were/are aware, the Sealing would result in Jaffur being asleep, with Jaron being the sole occupant of his mind. That doesn't keep him in place for you to try and solve his perceived psych issues, that just keeps him in stasis until you unseal him again. I doubt Berra would think of that as being a reasonable plan, not to mention Dandeer seemingly has no intention of unsealing him.

As much as we want to keep the Conspiracy a secret from Dad, I think it might be worth the risk to try talking to him and flat-out ask him why he thinks Sealing Jaffur was/is a good plan. Our Communication is good (although our Deceit probably isn't good enough just yet to not accidentally reveal something). We already opposed him during the Sealing, so he knows we disagreed at the time.

Although this spat with the Scout will make it difficult to find a good time to talk to him about it. Damn inconvenient of them.
I'm fairly sure it came up at some point in the arguments they had.

@PoptartProdigy, can you share any insight on this?
 
I'm fairly sure it came up at some point in the arguments they had.

@PoptartProdigy, can you share any insight on this?
I know she when she first tried to Seal Jaffur, Kakara failed the Comm check, and just said it was wrong.
Afterwards we ignored Dad, got annoyed when he trained Mato, he accidentally grabbed our Tail, and then we made up with him. But from what I remember, the make-up was more of a 'You're still my Dad/We're still family' thing than actually talking about why we both chose to do what we did. Though I could just be forgetting something.
 
I know she when she first tried to Seal Jaffur, Kakara failed the Comm check, and just said it was wrong.
Afterwards we ignored Dad, got annoyed when he trained Mato, he accidentally grabbed our Tail, and then we made up with him. But from what I remember, the make-up was more of a 'You're still my Dad/We're still family' thing than actually talking about why we both chose to do what we did. Though I could just be forgetting something.
I remember mention of them arguing about it, constantly.
 
Why erase his memories of all saiyans when the could have instead erased his shitty memories of his father?
The latter may have required so much more detail work than the former that it would be functionally impossible.

Or Dandeer could have said that and almost no one could have said she was wrong with any confidence whatsoever.

So are you arguing that Jaffur is insane? Because otherwise that qualifier is fucking irrellevent.
What's being argued is that some people, including Berra, believe that Jaffur is violently insane. In addition to being a super-powered entity who is physically impossible to restrain without forcibly crippling him. Or having one of the literally four other people on the planet strong enough to do so put him in a headlock 24 hours a day.

Even though Berra is factually wrong, the idea of Jaffur being violently insane and a danger to those around him is an extremely alarming idea that any reasonable person would fear that possibility. Given what we know Dandeer said to Jaffur, if there is blame to go around for WHY Berra acted as he did, that blame lies with Dandeer, because she was the one whose words to Berra provided him with understandable impetus to act.

Part of the problem with Dandeer is that we don't know how much of what she says is true, how much is lies, and how much is delusion. Vegeta is clearly abusive, and as horrible as it is, magical lobotomy might be the only way they can contain him, due to his power level. However, it was done without trial, without evidence, and without any opportunity for him to answer the charges. Bear in mind what she has done is equivalent to Babylon 5's "death of personality", which is a form of capital punishment. Jaffur is also a victim here, and was given the same sentence as his father, again without any opportunity to defend himself. To put this bluntly, Dandeer magically lobotomized both her husband and son so she could live her fantasy life. This is inexcusable, and Berra is a party to her crime.
You do know that lobotomies are physically impossible to reverse even if you want to, right? Those brain cells don't grow back.

Memories that are locked away are not the same thing as memories that are deleted. No one has yet shown me any convincing evidence that anyone's memories or personalities got deleted in the Sealing, and we have compelling reason to think Jaffur's were not. Because Jaffur is still in there inside Jared's head and he's a fully functioning personality. He ain't dead. Lord Vegeta probably isn't dead either, we just don't care whether he's alive or dead because he's such a rat.

If Sealing had worked as Dandeer described it, it wouldn't be "death of personality," it'd be "stick personality in stasis." Dandeer may be opposed to ever opening that stasis cell, but that's a question that can be addressed at a later date. Lots of later dates.

I think you're saying that Berra thinks the Sealing is meant to be temporary? For Jaffur at least.

The problem with that is it only puts off the problem until later. As far as Berra and Dandeer were/are aware, the Sealing would result in Jaffur being asleep, with Jaron being the sole occupant of his mind. That doesn't keep him in place for you to try and solve his perceived psych issues, that just keeps him in stasis until you unseal him again. I doubt Berra would think of that as being a reasonable plan, not to mention Dandeer seemingly has no intention of unsealing him.
We're talking about a boy of roughly nine or ten years of age whose levels of physical power are "Superman" tier. Suppose you are Berra. Not Dandeer, Berra, this is not about Dandeer.

Now, again, you are de facto leader of the world in this matter, by default. A nine year old boy, one who's been grossly abused by his father (your hated ex-friend) for year, is now one of the five strongest people on the planet, with the other four consisting of his grandfather, you, your mom, and your nine year old daughter.

Your options are:

1) Assume the boy is sane and not dangerous, after being assured by his own mother that he is not, and that he has in fact just tried to kill her, OR
2) Physically maim and restrain this child to the best of your ability, and pray it actually stops him from breaking loose and taking revenge, OR
3) Have his mother, who presumably loves him and wants the best for him, you would think so anyway, press "pause" on his consciousness and buy yourself some time to think.

I'm not saying (3) was the right choice here, but it's not exactly the act of a crazy, stupid, or vicious human being to choose (3) over (1) or (2).

As much as we want to keep the Conspiracy a secret from Dad, I think it might be worth the risk to try talking to him and flat-out ask him why he thinks Sealing Jaffur was/is a good plan. Our Communication is good (although our Deceit probably isn't good enough just yet to not accidentally reveal something). We already opposed him during the Sealing, so he knows we disagreed at the time.

Although this spat with the Scout will make it difficult to find a good time to talk to him about it. Damn inconvenient of them.
I am pretty sure the answer will come down to "because pressing 'pause' on Jaffur's saiyan consciousness was a hell of a lot more humane than cutting off his arms and legs and wrapping him in ultra-steel, which was the only other way I could think of to restrain him after it became clear he was willing to try to kill his mother and to beat the snot out of me even at the cost of tearing his own body apart to do it."
 
*tired sigh*
I'm honestly getting sick of how these keep cropping up, but I guess until the whole situation of the Sealing is resolved, and one or more segments of the voter base are "proven" "right", it's going to keep happening.

I'm just going to offer a few points based on my observations from the "in character" bits presented thus far.

1.) @Simon_Jester has done a solid job of presenting why Berra's not an inherent monster, and was doing what he thought was right.
2.) Recall that when Dandoleer was told about what was going on in Jaffur/Jaron's mind, he was surprised, and stated he did not think that was the intended result. Being that he's a Sorceror in his own right, I trust his insight.
3.) Unlike his father, Jaffur was awake when Sealed. Awake, powered up to Super Saiyan, and oh yeah was a nascent Sorceror trying to push back against the Sealing. These are the pieces of evidence that led to Dandoleer's conclusions.
4.) I believe even Dandoleer thought, at first, that the Sealing had done the "lock down Saiyan memories, memories of abuse, and power" thing. He didn't believe it was right/the best, but the whole "total deletion and death" doesn't seem to have been seriously discussed as what happened by the people who actually understand the mechanics going on here.
5.) If the Sealing had "worked properly", one could argue it would have been like an involuntary regimen of drugs to treat heavy mental illness and trauma. Ethically dubious at minimum, but at least understandable. I've long had the impression that even Dandeer saw it as more of a "long-term heavy-duty medical treatment". Only Kakara, Dandoleer, and a few others, who have information that Dandeer, Berra, and others lack, sees it differently.
6.) The only people talking about "deletion" of anything are the people OOC here in this thread. Every IC mention (several of which were quoted recently) has used terms like "lock away" or "suppress".
7.) As has been repeatedly mentioned, Berra was essentially handed what, to him, seemed to be an open-and-shut case that pretty much pushed every single trauma button, morality button, hero button, etc. that he had, all at the same time. Is it any wonder he ended up going for what, to him, seemed the "best of all worlds solution", one that would refrain from killing anyone, protect the helpless, sooth deep traumas to a child, and remove threats to him, his daughter, and many, many more? Keep in mind that Berra isn't some hyper-rational, hyper-logical, hyper-knowledgeable, hyper-competent, unemotional meat-robot, he's a person, with emotions and thoughts and feelings and flaws and biases and a dozen dozen other things that played into the decision he made.
(Just like what happens all the time with every single one of us, eh? ;):p)
 
Kakara failed the Comm check, and just said it was wrong.
She said that sorcery/the spell felt wrong. It actually came out as if she was doing it out of prejudice against sorcery since she totally owned the previous' night stealth check so to them she had no idea what they were doing (sealing Jaffur) or why (for his own good/him being extra violent to the point he almost killed his own mother) so she couldn't have been arguing about how the sealing was wrong or why they shouldn't do it but that they were using sorcery on him.

It was a very bad time for the diplomacy charácter to roll badly.

I remember mention of them arguing about it, constantly.
They were. It ended with them deciding that you can disagree with other people and think that they did wrong without that meaning you have to stop loving them for it. So it was more that they accepted they were not going to convince each other and decided not to bring it up again since by that point they were making it personal and only hurt each other.

There was no mention of them discussing it in Deep, just Kakara acting passive-agressive towards him and telling him he would never convince her that he did the right thing the first time he tried to broach the subject though. So she neither explained in Deep why she was against him or gave him a chance to explain it since she assumed she already knew what was going on (and was disabused of the notion by grandma later). She still hasn't asked him about his reasoning.

On the hate on Berra:
As for the sealing... I am pretty sure that they both think that Jaron=Jaffur. They both think that the traumatic memories were driving him insane so they had to seal those for him to be happy (since with his power level, trying the traditional way of making him come to terms with it was too risky) and they had to seal the rest of the saiyan ones because otherwise he would be with a lot of holes in his memories and he would know what happened and would act against that and that doesn't sound healthy. On top of this, Dandeer thinks there is something about saiyan biology that predisposes them to violence and so the masque is like meds for personalty disorders. Berra, on the other hand, was acting through the lens of Jaffur not only acting like Vegeta in that he beat up his own mother and Berra's childhood friend when she was trying to explain but that just two nights before Jaffur caused us to gain 3 million units of power level through a zenkai when those happens when you are beaten close to death and he was already showing signs of obsession towards us.

Berra doesn't even know that Jaffur is trapped in his mind; we are the ones who discovered it and we didn't tell him about it. I don't think he would be ok with the state of it and he would probably be horrified that we didn't tell him and allowed Jaffur to be a prisoner for years. He probably would have tried to fix that if he found out about it but we didn't tell him because since he is under the assumption (not necessarily wrong depending on the anthropological view you are using) that Jaffur is still Jaffur even if he doesn't remember because even if a person changes over time as they form new memories they are still the same person they were when they were Young.

Berra's reasoning appear to be this: While a person changes as they grow up and gain new experiences, they are still the same person. So while 8 years old Jaffur acts different as 3 years old Jaffur, they are both still Jaffur. Now imagine a hypothetical situation in that Trunks came with his time machine and made it so that Jaffur's masque was never removed and so he wasn't traumatised by Vegeta. In that case, Mirai Jaffur would have had the same memories as Jaron and would have developed the same way. Because the change happened when they were 3 years old, then 3YO Jaffur = 3YO Mirai Jaffur. However, as per his previous assumption, just because he grew up and acts diffrently and has new experiences, it doesn't mean that 8YO Mirai Jaffur and 3YO Mirai Jaffur are not both Jaffur. Sincé 3YO Jaffur=3YO Mirai Jaffur and he has concluded that, while different, Jaffur at 3 and Jaffur at 8 are both still Jaffur then at 8 Jaffur and Mirai Jaffur (aka as Jaron) are both Jaffur, just different versions akin to someone at different points in life, so the sealing is not murder. That still doesn't mean it is right to do it but it means that to him Jaron is Jaffur but healthy, thcause of his disease (insanity) removed.

Which makes the next question he asks himself if he has any right to do this. On one hand, he sees the son of his former best friend and a close friend suffering and was tempted with the idea that he could ease his suffering without killing him. On the other hand, it means that he can protect people from a violent super saiyan who beat his mother half to death in a fit of anger when he was eight and who violently opposes Vegeta's fate without Berra having to kill a child to do it. HOWEVER, the most important argument in favor of doing this is that said unstable super saiyan who seems to change his mind from one moment to another regarding who is an aceptable target for violence (going from wanting to kill his father to defending him, from thinkin of his mother as his only solace and the one that loves him and defends him to beating her half to death after she deecides Vegeta went too far when blasting Jaffur, from hitting Kakara as a super saiyan so hard in the face to cause her a 3 million zenkai to say it isn't fair to train with her just a few hours after the fact) seems to be fixated on his 8 year old non-super saiyan daughter. That is probably what tipped the balance for him.

(Also, before saying that he did try to kill Jaffur with this, do remind him that changing people's experiences is not inheritently murder to him. Experiences are a person's past and if changing it means you murder the person then what Trunks thought would happen the first time he went to the past implies genocide and that time travel is integral to the exiles' history.)

Now, the main difference between changing someone's memories and changing the past is that in the first case the facts did happen so the issue here is threefold. On one side, it is the fact that it makes his life, what he remembers, a lie. Now, the masquerade is integral to the exile culture so there is not that much of a problema with lying but besides that, there are other historical facts that have to do with their culture that supports the idea that it is not that bad for them. The most obvious one is that their ancestors asked Shen Long to erase the memories of everyone on earth but them regarding the Majin Buu saga and their genocide but there are other examples in which they decided that lying about what happened was best for everyone. The other is whether he had a right to change the experiences that Jaffur experienced but, as said, Trunks and the Z fighters did before for the good of the world so to him, for the sake of Jaffur and his daughter, he was justified in helping Jaffur even if he was against it. Finally, and perhaps the most sore point about the issue, is that he didn't give a chance to Jaffur to defend himself. However, because Dandeer had already sealed Vegeta, they only had a small window of opportunity if they had to seal Jaffur before the clan acted to stop itand the evidence Berra was privy to was very damning against Jaffur. Again, Berra was not really thinking rationally: beyond the fact he has the atoner trait he was also acting in order to protect Kakara in his eyes and his duty as a father is to do exactly that.

Look, I am not saying that he was right to do as he did since I am also opposed to the sealing. However, given that a lot of the information we have telling us that it might not be necessary either comes from OoC or are things that Kakara learnt but never told him, I can hardly fault him for making the mistake he did. I mean, we just saw what lack of communication does and since we didn't even tell him that we Heard them talking the night before and thus knew a bit of the situation and we failed the communication check it is easy to see why he didn't listen to us.

Try to imagine this as a Berra quest and reach that point with the information he would have had. What would you have voted to do at that point? No cheating! Remember to include the scenes Kakara didn't see, remove what Kakara knows that he doesn't and if you get info from char creation remember it is from Berra and Vegeta, not Jaffur.
 
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Yes, folks, Berra retains the capacity to learn from his mistakes. :rolleyes: Read the trait again; it is specifically about fixing past failures. He disagrees with you on the Sealing because he sees the facts differently, not because he's incapable of changing his mind. He's invested in the decision and believes it to be right, but that equates to, "insufficient reason to change mind," not, "KILL THE HERETIC! BURN ALL UNCLEAN THOUGHT! NOT ONE! STEP! BACK!" Bear in mind that his available information is an infinitesimal fraction the size of yours. Go ahead and hate him if you like, but he felt it was the best way to fix his mistakes based on what he knew.

Which means that, no, he isn't psychologically incapable of running a failure analysis on his own command decisions. You just don't do that in front of the junior officer you're lecturing. Later on you'll be his baby girl and his heir again and he'll chat more frankly.

I'm fairly sure it came up at some point in the arguments they had.

@PoptartProdigy, can you share any insight on this?

Well, that's just the thing; they've had arguments, yeah, but no real conversations on the topic. It always just...degenerated.


Dandelor's. Then again, the names are derived from the same word, so I can see from where the confusion sprang. :p



After I finish one of my quests I should make a quest where the PC's only/prime power to affect things is through invasive mind control, but is constantly in situations that need solving. Knowing SV, folks would go nuts about it. :lol
 
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After I finish one of my quests I should make a quest where the PC's only/prime power to affect things is through invasive mind control, but is constantly in situations that need solving. Knowing SV, folks would go nuts about it. :lol

It would end in the world burning... Cause it has always been burning since the world's been turning...
 
Yes, folks, Berra retains the capacity to learn from his mistakes. :rolleyes: Read the trait again; it is specifically about fixing past failures. He disagrees with you on the Sealing because he sees the facts differently, not because he's incapable of changing his mind. He's invested in the decision and believes it to be right, but that equates to, "insufficient reason to change mind," not, "KILL THE HERETIC! BURN ALL UNCLEAN THOUGHT! NOT ONE! STEP! BACK!" Bear in mind that his available information is an infinitesimal fraction the size of yours. Go ahead and hate him if you like, but he felt it was the best way to fix his mistakes based on what he knew.

Which means that, no, he isn't psychologically incapable of running a failure analysis on his own command decisions. You just don't do that in front of the junior officer you're lecturing. Later on you'll be his baby girl and his heir again and he'll chat more frankly.



Well, that's just the thing; they've had arguments, yeah, but no real conversations on the topic. It always just...degenerated.



Dandelor's. Then again, the names are derived from the same word, so I can see from where the confusion sprang. :p



After I finish one of my quests I should make a quest where the PC's only/prime power to affect things is through invasive mind control, but is constantly in situations that need solving. Knowing SV, folks would go nuts about it. :lol

Which basically means that with all the bonus to conversation we had we could have probably used a write in to convince him that it is wrong to keep him sealed but we decided to go the conspiracy route. I mean, probably not the first turn but between talented communication, convictions, socializer, open arms and the info we now had available we probably had a fair chance at the begining of this turn.
 
Which basically means that with all the bonus to conversation we had we could have probably used a write in to convince him that it is wrong to keep him sealed but we decided to go the conspiracy route. I mean, probably not the first turn but between talented communication, convictions, socializer, open arms and the info we now had available we probably had a fair chance at the begining of this turn.
Very possibly. This is what happens when people form biases against a person because they've decided to hate him.

Kakara in particular has very few good options for dealing with problems when she isn't willing to talk to people about them. So it's a major handicap for her to end up being forced to circumvent rules rather than just talk her way around them.

Yes, folks, Berra retains the capacity to learn from his mistakes. :rolleyes: Read the trait again; it is specifically about fixing past failures. He disagrees with you on the Sealing because he sees the facts differently, not because he's incapable of changing his mind. He's invested in the decision and believes it to be right, but that equates to, "insufficient reason to change mind," not, "KILL THE HERETIC! BURN ALL UNCLEAN THOUGHT! NOT ONE! STEP! BACK!" Bear in mind that his available information is an infinitesimal fraction the size of yours. Go ahead and hate him if you like, but he felt it was the best way to fix his mistakes based on what he knew.
Right. I mean hell, Kakara's sources of information include being literally psychic (and not just in the telepathic sense that every saiyan worth their salt can do, either). She can see past, present, and future events, and can even focus her will deliberately to see specific things she's curious about. She's a budding little "scry and die" artist, honestly, only without the 'die' part.

It's to the point where Kakara, despite being a child, is one of Berra's greatest sources of information... and Kakara isn't even remotely close to telling Berra everything she knows.

Which means that, no, he isn't psychologically incapable of running a failure analysis on his own command decisions. You just don't do that in front of the junior officer you're lecturing. Later on you'll be his baby girl and his heir again and he'll chat more frankly.
Naturally. I was merely commenting on that bit, not trying to imply that Berra couldn't or wouldn't learn the lesson. Others, though... yeah.

Also, the idea of Mind Control Quest is darkly amusing. That would make for either great dark comedy or just plain very interesting. Setup would be tricky, though.
 
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Very possibly. This is what happens when people form biases against a person because they've decided to hate him.

Kakara in particular has very few good options for dealing with problems when she isn't willing to talk to people about them. So it's a major handicap for her to end up being forced to circumvent rules rather than just talk her way around them.

Right. I mean hell, Kakara's sources of information include being literally psychic (and not just in the telepathic sense that every saiyan worth their salt can do, either). She can see past, present, and future events, and can even focus her will deliberately to see specific things she's curious about. She's a budding little "scry and die" artist, honestly, only without the 'die' part.

It's to the point where Kakara, despite being a child, is one of Berra's greatest sources of information... and Kakara isn't even remotely close to telling Berra everything she knows.

Naturally. I was merely commenting on that bit, not trying to imply that Berra couldn't or wouldn't learn the lesson. Others, though... yeah.

Also, the idea of Mind Control Quest is darkly amusing. That would make for either great dark comedy or just plain very interesting. Setup would be tricky, though.

You know what's funny? I am pretty sure he would consider Jaffur's situation as it right now something inhumane that was caused by his mistakes. So if he knew and we convinced him that is the case then Atoner would make him move heaven and Earth in order to fix it.
 
Alright, after a good night's sleep I feel much better.

*Sees I posted while sleepy*
*Sees an argument that has finally died down*

And this is why I'm not supposed to post while sleepy.

Okay, let's see what I want to respond to.


Yes, it is.

a·nal·o·gous
əˈnaləɡəs/
adjective
  1. comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.

Not the best use of analogous on my part I will admit, but it still fits in the "comparable in certain respects". I can't decide if you out right rejected the comparison because it was the Holocaust, or if you actually considered it and then disagreed when I said they both 'have reasons that personally justify their actions and make them think they are in the right, while from an outside perspective they really were not' (edited from singular to plural). I would hope it was the latter. If it was, you probably disagreed with my use of "in the right". I was attempting to use it to say that according to what they know, and their personal beliefs/values, it was the right choice to make. You've already talked a ton about how Berra was justified in his mind, so I don't need to say that. For the Nazi soldier example, many forget how important 'following orders' was to them. A long story short, even if the orders were "wrong" it was "right" to follow them, and moral responsibility falls on those that issued them. (Please don't make me have to look for my debate material for this - I'm pretty sure I lost it all when I switched computers.)

And it might have been my holocaust comparison (or some other thing I did while posting while sleepy), but you seem to be under the impression that I see Berra as a horrible monster for taking part in the Sealing. I don't. I see him as a greatly flawed man who took part in and enabled a monstrous act (no matter how justified he was in doing so). I don't have a strong enough word to describe how much I hate the sealing, which overflows quickly into me hating Berra's actions in it, which bleeds over to some degree of hate of him as a person. A person doesn't need to be evil for someone to hate them.
 
Alright, after a good night's sleep I feel much better.

*Sees I posted while sleepy*
*Sees an argument that has finally died down*

And this is why I'm not supposed to post while sleepy.

Okay, let's see what I want to respond to.



Yes, it is.

a·nal·o·gous
əˈnaləɡəs/
adjective
  1. comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.

Not the best use of analogous on my part I will admit, but it still fits in the "comparable in certain respects". I can't decide if you out right rejected the comparison because it was the Holocaust, or if you actually considered it and then disagreed when I said they both 'have reasons that personally justify their actions and make them think they are in the right, while from an outside perspective they really were not' (edited from singular to plural). I would hope it was the latter. If it was, you probably disagreed with my use of "in the right". I was attempting to use it to say that according to what they know, and their personal beliefs/values, it was the right choice to make. You've already talked a ton about how Berra was justified in his mind, so I don't need to say that. For the Nazi soldier example, many forget how important 'following orders' was to them. A long story short, even if the orders were "wrong" it was "right" to follow them, and moral responsibility falls on those that issued them. (Please don't make me have to look for my debate material for this - I'm pretty sure I lost it all when I switched computers.)

And it might have been my holocaust comparison (or some other thing I did while posting while sleepy), but you seem to be under the impression that I see Berra as a horrible monster for taking part in the Sealing. I don't. I see him as a greatly flawed man who took part in and enabled a monstrous act (no matter how justified he was in doing so). I don't have a strong enough word to describe how much I hate the sealing, which overflows quickly into me hating Berra's actions in it, which bleeds over to some degree of hate of him as a person. A person doesn't need to be evil for someone to hate them.
Maybe step 1 is to stop trying to compare Berra to a Nazi? That'd be awesome.
 
There is a lot of Dandeer hate in this thread, for reasons I can't quite understand.

Especially since we don't quite know the entire story just yet!

As I understand, most people default to attributing intrinsic personality traits as at fault when viewing others and circumstance when viewing themselves. eg 'man is angry', if it's you, you are frustrated by the bad day, if it's someone else 'what an angry man'.

... mostly skipping the conversation here, to be honest.
 
Again, we see the problems caused by the interlocking network of mis-characterizations and mis-understandings, all of which are cumulatively pointing in a single direction that discourages attempts to correctly examine what happened.

Firstly, you seem to be behaving as though the Sealing killed Jaffur. It did not. Jaffur is still alive. In fact, the situation was made more complicated by the fact that there are effectively two of Jaffur: Jaffur, and a completely new personality Jaffur spun off to populate his forcibly Masqued self.

How do you kill someone and end up with two of them?
 
No. The comparison helps show how much I hate the sealing. And they are comparable in certain respects. Do I need to find my "not all Nazis were evil monsters" material? Because I'm pretty sure that's on my other computer too.
Let me put this a different way: I do not believe it is a constructive way to make your point and participate in a conversation. If the goal is to dialogue with us, work to come to understanding, compromise, agreement, and forward motion, then it seems reasonable to perhaps lay some ground rules and boundaries when it comes to things like "please don't use that level of comparison".
 
Again, we see the problems caused by the interlocking network of mis-characterizations and mis-understandings, all of which are cumulatively pointing in a single direction that discourages attempts to correctly examine what happened.

Firstly, you seem to be behaving as though the Sealing killed Jaffur. It did not. Jaffur is still alive. In fact, the situation was made more complicated by the fact that there are effectively two of Jaffur: Jaffur, and a completely new personality Jaffur spun off to populate his forcibly Masqued self.

How do you kill someone and end up with two of them?

Ah. This is where I failed my communications check. Let me try to fix this. From Berra's understanding of the Sealing he knows it takes away (or if you want to argue semantics - seals) all memories of the Saiyan race, and (while not directly stated) he should also know that the memories that are replaced with ones that fit the mask. My personal opinion is that a person is what their experiences make of them. Permanently take that all away, and they are dead. Fill that empty void with different experiences and you make a new person. Call the two one and the same is wrong to me, with the sealing made disgusting by the nature of what the filling was.

For reference, look the invisatext of Jaffur's sealing, particularly the last few lines. The invisatext is marked in red for your convenience.

No, Jaffur breaks free simply to scream.
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta, the Scion of Vegeta.
Lady Vegeta starts crying, but continues her spell. "Paparapapa."
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta.
Jaffur curls up on himself, wailing.
You are Jaffur Vegeta.
"It'll be over soon, Jaffur, I promise! Paparapapa!"
You are Jaffur.
"Please!" shouts Jaffur, writhing.
Jaffur.
In the distance, your Dad snags Betarel out of the air and tucks the boy under his arm.
Ja...Jaff...Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
"Let him go!" screams Betarel.
You are Jaron Somerlad.
Jaffur drops out of his transformation.
You are eight years old, and have a Mom, a Dad, and a little sister.
"Paparapapa!"
You sometimes resent your Dad, because he works so much and is gone so often, leaving you and your little sister alone.
Jaffur flickers between his base form and his Super Saiyan state, struggling to maintain control.
But your Mom is always there for you.
His eyes lock on you and he screams, "HELP ME!"
And you love her.
Lady Vegeta's hands twist through another array of seals. "Papara..."
You love her with all your heart.
Jaffur screams to the heavens, flashing back into his transformed state...
And nothing else is as important as that.
"PAPA!"
You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with...
...and then he crashes down through his base state and into his Masque before slumping back on the sand, eyes fluttering shut.

Can you see why I hate the sealing so much [in the invisatext]? Can you see how it could overflow to hating Berra for his part in it?


Let me put this a different way: I do not believe it is a constructive way to make your point and participate in a conversation. If the goal is to dialogue with us, work to come to understanding, compromise, agreement, and forward motion, then it seems reasonable to perhaps lay some ground rules and boundaries when it comes to things like "please don't use that level of comparison".

I apologize if using it as a comparison personally offended you in any way. I don't have an example off the top of my head that I could have substituted for the comparison I wanted to make.
 
I'm honestly surprised his own mother hasn't already thought of this, actually.
Because the bigger issue is Dandeer, who is the only one who knows exactly how the damn things works, and is a mite unstable. Really don't want to tip her off, lest she do something drastic.

And the conspiracy's main goal on the Berra front is... to gather enough forces to make him pause and present to him the evidence, in a way he can't ignore it. Aka, a giant rally of people protesting and willing to explain why.

Also, it shouldn't need to be said, but Berra's first action would be to get Dandeer and "fix" the Sealing, when we want the Sealing gone.
 
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