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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Excuse me, but isn't rationalism the reliance of reason as the best guide to belief and action? Or the theory that the exercise of reason is the primary basis for knowledge rather tan experience, authority or spiritual revelation? And isn't reason the mental powers related to coming to conclusión, judgements and inferences?

Because that sounds far more limiting than any option presented. For example, the situation with Maya: How would a rationalist have reacted? By keeping a promise and minding her emotions? How would a rationalist have reacted to the Peat reveal and treason? Would they have kept Celeran with no guarantee of good behaviour?

Twisting the meaning of the Word to "take the most effective course of action" takes agency out of the players because it is our job to choose those options.

fictionfan said:
In Dragon ball power comes from need if we're are hopeful then we might not feel that need because we expect everything to work out.
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Fictionfan. Traits depends on their description, not their title. If the trait description says one thing, that is what the trait means, not your conception of it. Furthermore, this is also an evolution of the driven trait, why Kakara Works as hard as she does. This trait does not come to the void, it is an evolution of an already existing one.

Also, no single trait defines the entirety of Kakara's charácter but a conjunction of them.

We also already have a ruling on what hopeful means: She Works hard because she believes they can build a better future than how things are today. That's it.

I get that "option b) is made of fire!" is a valid tactic but it also tends to bad feelings down the line. This is a game. The objective is to have fun. Furthermore, as a quest, the fun is coming to a conclusión as a group and convincing people in a way you can have fun doing so. That line of argument is not condutive for that.

Finally, I would like to point out the legend below your username. "The way to win an argument is to change your mind". I took it to mean that one should keep an open mind when arguing. Was I mistaken? Because it doesn't seem like you are doing that at this momento.
 
At this point I am not nearly as against hopefully as I was at first. In fact I will not even be upset if it is picked. I just really like organized.
 
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Bakkasama said:
Excuse me, but isn't rationalism the reliance of reason as the best guide to belief and action? Or the theory that the exercise of reason is the primary basis for knowledge rather tan experience, authority or spiritual revelation? And isn't reason the mental powers related to coming to conclusión, judgements and inferences?
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You are speaking of the old rationalism, they are talking about the Beyes cult rationalism of Less Wrong.

At least such is my understanding.
 
Bakkasama said:
Excuse me, but isn't rationalism the reliance of reason as the best guide to belief and action? Or the theory that the exercise of reason is the primary basis for knowledge rather tan experience, authority or spiritual revelation? And isn't reason the mental powers related to coming to conclusión, judgements and inferences?

Because that sounds far more limiting than any option presented. For example, the situation with Maya: How would a rationalist have reacted? By keeping a promise and minding her emotions? How would a rationalist have reacted to the Peat reveal and treason? Would they have kept Celeran with no guarantee of good behaviour?

Twisting the meaning of the Word to "take the most effective course of action" takes agency out of the players because it is our job to choose those options.
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Those definitions are correct, but your conclusions are not. It would not affect our ability to make decisions, because we control what Kakara wants from any given situation. In the situation with Maya I have no reason to believe the playerbase would have voted differently, and ditto the other two, unless you're arguing we made the wrong decisions in those instances? I would imagine a Rational Kakara would, for the purposes of this quest, be a lot more clear about the expected consequences of each decision. I couldn't comment on the mechanical traits (heh) of the hypothetical trait, since I'm not the QM.

...How'd we get on this topic again?
 
Aranfan said:
You are speaking of the old rationalism, they are talking about the Beyes cult rationalism of Less Wrong.

At least such is my understanding.
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Do you per chance mean the one from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality? The fic in which Harry went on a rant about how arbitrary words and wand movement made no sense as a way to make magic while missing the fact that wands are tools made by wizards and it is likely that they were designed so that such things determined their effect? Or is it an actual thing?

Deathbybunnies said:
Those definitions are correct, but your conclusions are not. It would not affect our ability to make decisions, because we control what Kakara wants from any given situation. In the situation with Maya I have no reason to believe the playerbase would have voted differently, and ditto the other two, unless you're arguing we made the wrong decisions in those instances? I would imagine a Rational Kakara would, for the purposes of this quest, be a lot more clear about the expected consequences of each decision. I couldn't comment on the mechanical traits (heh) of the hypothetical trait, since I'm not the QM.
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If that is what you believe then I don't get why you are arguing for the benefits of it. I mean, I look at your previous posts
Deathbybunnies said:
No? By definition, if acting in a certain way leads to a better outcome and you know this (and we do!) then that is the rational way to act, even if it would be incorrect in another set of circumstances (e.g. the real world). If we got a wish every time we did a backflip and screamed "purple bunnies!" at the top of our lungs, then the rational course of action would be to keep doing backflips whilst screaming "purple bunnies!"
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Deathbybunnies said:
Ah, that's a common misconception. Being rational in no way involves suppressing your emotions or feelings. It does involve divorcing said feelings from the decision-making process, but you don't feel them any less. You can use them for motivation, but not actually making decisions (well, you try - no-one's perfect.)
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Deathbybunnies said:
I disagree. The whole point of a rational actor is that if an approach isn't working, you change it so that it does. A rational character in a "real world" setting would act vastly different to a rational character in a world that ran on Plot and Stereotypes and Million-To-One-Chances working 9 times out of 10.
Besides, although this is set in the DBZ universe we aren't following the same genre conventions.
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I don't really see the point. It is basically choose what you think is best and then look for a logical explanation for it. I mean, I know I am saying it more flippantly tan I need butcan you explain this:

How is what you think rationalist would mean any different than what we are doing already? What benefit does it give.
 
Bakkasama said:
Do you per chance mean the one from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality? The fic in which Harry went on a rant about how arbitrary words and wand movement made no sense as a way to make magic while missing the fact that wands are tools made by wizards and it is likely that they were designed so that such things determined their effect? Or is it an actual thing?


If that is what you believe then I don't get why you are arguing for the benefits of it. I mean, I look at your previous posts




I don't really see the point. It is basically choose what you think is best and then look for a logical explanation for it. I mean, I know I am saying it more flippantly tan I need butcan you explain this:

How is what you think rationalist would mean any different than what we are doing already? What benefit does it give.
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IC, it would mean that Kakara was using logic and reason to make all of her decisions, not emotional or logical fallacies. OOC this is of course nonsense - Kakara doesn't make decisions, we do, and unless every single voter used rational methods then nothing would really change. OOC Kakara being Hot-Blooded means nothing because we aren't hot-blooded (beside a few mechanical effects) but it affects the text and the way things play out. I would expect the text of updates to clearly set out what Kakara expects the consequences of events or actions to be, and possibly even do the same for the given voting options. It would have some mechanical benefits - @PoptartProdigy described it as an "endgame" trait - but again, I can't really comment on what those are.

TL;DR OOC nothing would change, because OOC traits don't actually affect us.

EDIT: Changed to from "emotion" to "emotional and logical fallacies" because of course only robots are capable of not letting their emotions affect them at all.
 
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[x] Yes. You can trust him with this. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" option occurs next year; even if you don't take it, somebody will approach him to bring him in)
[X] "Hopeful" : Above all things, Kakara hopes and believes in making tomorrow better than today. All of the political effort, all the training, everything, it's not just about righting past wrongs, but about making things in the future better. Kakara believes this is possible. She holds onto that hope, uses it as the core of her drive to change herself and others. Not to mold them or force them or beat them down, but to lift them up, to perceive and strive for the hope that anyone can be better. Grandpa Gohan didn't have much hope for Jaffur, but he admitted he was wrong. Maybe what the Exiles need now is some Hope, a vision to be stirred toward.
 
[x] Yes. You can trust him with this. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" option occurs next year; even if you don't take it, somebody will approach him to bring him in)
[X] "Hopeful" : Above all things, Kakara hopes and believes in making tomorrow better than today. All of the political effort, all the training, everything, it's not just about righting past wrongs, but about making things in the future better. Kakara believes this is possible. She holds onto that hope, uses it as the core of her drive to change herself and others. Not to mold them or force them or beat them down, but to lift them up, to perceive and strive for the hope that anyone can be better. Grandpa Gohan didn't have much hope for Jaffur, but he admitted he was wrong. Maybe what the Exiles need now is some Hope, a vision to be stirred toward.
 
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[X] Yes. You can trust him with this. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" option occurs next year; even if you don't take it, somebody will approach him to bring him in)
[X] "Hopeful" : Above all things, Kakara hopes and believes in making tomorrow better than today. All of the political effort, all the training, everything, it's not just about righting past wrongs, but about making things in the future better. Kakara believes this is possible. She holds onto that hope, uses it as the core of her drive to change herself and others. Not to mold them or force them or beat them down, but to lift them up, to perceive and strive for the hope that anyone can be better. Grandpa Gohan didn't have much hope for Jaffur, but he admitted he was wrong. Maybe what the Exiles need now is some Hope, a vision to be stirred toward.
 
[X] Yes. You can trust him with this. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" option occurs next year; even if you don't take it, somebody will approach him to bring him in)
[X] "Hopeful" : Above all things, Kakara hopes and believes in making tomorrow better than today. All of the political effort, all the training, everything, it's not just about righting past wrongs, but about making things in the future better. Kakara believes this is possible. She holds onto that hope, uses it as the core of her drive to change herself and others. Not to mold them or force them or beat them down, but to lift them up, to perceive and strive for the hope that anyone can be better. Grandpa Gohan didn't have much hope for Jaffur, but he admitted he was wrong. Maybe what the Exiles need now is some Hope, a vision to be stirred toward.
 
[X] No. Patriarch Yammar makes good points about his reliability. You don't really know him yet. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" options are permanently struck from the yearly options and will not reappear in the absence of new information; your co-conspirators will respect your judgment as the one who knows this man most on a matter as delicate as this)
[X] "Hopeful" : Above all things, Kakara hopes and believes in making tomorrow better than today. All of the political effort, all the training, everything, it's not just about righting past wrongs, but about making things in the future better. Kakara believes this is possible. She holds onto that hope, uses it as the core of her drive to change herself and others. Not to mold them or force them or beat them down, but to lift them up, to perceive and strive for the hope that anyone can be better. Grandpa Gohan didn't have much hope for Jaffur, but he admitted he was wrong. Maybe what the Exiles need now is some Hope, a vision to be stirred toward.
 
Traits are a matter of how characters do things. Unless a trait specifically says that it disallows certain options, mandates others, or imposes vote weighting, a trait has no impact on what choices the players may make. If the players make choices that contravene an existing trait, they're not betraying the character; they just lose the trait. Traits are a reflection upon the actions of the player base, and a tool for me to fill in the edges of player choices with the "Kakara" identity indicated by those actions.

Outside of a trait the specifically claims to, there is no such thing as a trait that impedes player agency. If ever you're voting between traits, I will tell you if that's a concern. If at no point I say that a trait limits or mandates actions, you have my official and unchanging word as QM that I am being honest.

Now. I believe I mentioned that this was not a vote on a matter of mechanics, yes? I assure you, a trait the imposed a mechanical penalty to your choices would be a matter of mechanics. Just figure out what kind of person you want Kakara to be.
 
[x] Yes. You can trust him with this. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" option occurs next year; even if you don't take it, somebody will approach him to bring him in)
[x] "Passionate." You are alive in a way it seems few other people are. When you look at the world, you see it exploding with amazing things that you want to experience or possess. You can do no less than to burn just as brightly.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Traits are a matter of how characters do things. Unless a trait specifically says that it disallows certain options, mandates others, or imposes vote weighting, a trait has no impact on what choices the players may make. If the players make choices that contravene an existing trait, they're not betraying the character; they just lose the trait. Traits are a reflection upon the actions of the player base, and a tool for me to fill in the edges of player choices with the "Kakara" identity indicated by those actions.

Outside of a trait the specifically claims to, there is no such thing as a trait that impedes player agency. If ever you're voting between traits, I will tell you if that's a concern. If at no point I say that a trait limits or mandates actions, you have my official and unchanging word as QM that I am being honest.

Now. I believe I mentioned that this was not a vote on a matter of mechanics, yes? I assure you, a trait the imposed a mechanical penalty to your choices would be a matter of mechanics. Just figure out what kind of person you want Kakara to be.
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That's what I thought. Out of interest, what level of mechanical benefit would an "endgame" trait give?
 
[X] "Passionate." You are alive in a way it seems few other people are. When you look at the world, you see it exploding with amazing things that you want to experience or possess. You can do no less than to burn just as brightly.

I like Hopeful, I like it more than Organised to be sure, but I'd rather go with Passionate. Hopeful is about making the world a better place, which is good, but it doesn't leave much room for Kakara doing things for herself. Things like studying at school, experimenting with ki, and general exploration and self-betterment will be directed to the goal of helping everyone else. She'll still like doing that stuff, but I want Kakara to do that stuff because she likes doing that stuff, not just because it helps people. With Passionate, she'll still help people because she's a good person and she likes helping people, but when she's doing stuff like inventing a new way to use ki, she won't feel pressured into specifically seeking out things which will help others.
 
Andres110 said:
[X] "Passionate." You are alive in a way it seems few other people are. When you look at the world, you see it exploding with amazing things that you want to experience or possess. You can do no less than to burn just as brightly.

I like Hopeful, I like it more than Organised to be sure, but I'd rather go with Passionate. Hopeful is about making the world a better place, which is good, but it doesn't leave much room for Kakara doing things for herself. Things like studying at school, experimenting with ki, and general exploration and self-betterment will be directed to the goal of helping everyone else. She'll still like doing that stuff, but I want Kakara to do that stuff because she likes doing that stuff, not just because it helps people. With Passionate, she'll still help people because she's a good person and she likes helping people, but when she's doing stuff like inventing a new way to use ki, she won't feel pressured into specifically seeking out things which will help others.
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In the darkest times, hope is something you give yourself. That is the meaning of inner strength.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
That's what I thought. Out of interest, what level of mechanical benefit would an "endgame" trait give?
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A person working with an endgame trait gains massive bonuses. It indicates a highly-developed state of mind that allows them to function incredibly well within set parameters. Endgame willpower traits, for instance, are +30 Willpower and +3 yearly actions.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
A person working with an endgame trait gains massive bonuses. It indicates a highly-developed state of mind that allows them to function incredibly well within set parameters. Endgame willpower traits, for instance, are +30 Willpower and +3 yearly actions.
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Of course they often have crippling penalties that encourage you to continue acting in the same way you did before, giving you trouble if you want to change or mend your ways! Or if your teammates disagree with your trait/course of action!
 
Sucal said:
Of course they often have crippling penalties that encourage you to continue acting in the same way you did before, giving you trouble if you want to change or mend your ways! Or if your teammates disagree with your trait/course of action!
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Wrong thread. :rolleyes: That is one trait, and it is an evolution on the "specific ambition" traits, not the general willpower traits. "Specific ambition" traits can scale up to +30/+3 levels, but that all on its own indicates deeply unhealthy levels of obsession, yes. Not all traits are good for you.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Wrong thread. :rolleyes: That is one trait, and it is an evolution on the "specific ambition" traits, not the general willpower traits. "Specific ambition" traits can scale up to +30/+3 levels, but that all on its own indicates deeply unhealthy levels of obsession, yes. Not all traits are good for you.
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Ah but it is an example of an 'Endgame' Trait though, which is why I was referencing they can have issues!
 
PoptartProdigy said:
A person working with an endgame trait gains massive bonuses. It indicates a highly-developed state of mind that allows them to function incredibly well within set parameters. Endgame willpower traits, for instance, are +30 Willpower and +3 yearly actions.
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Holy shit, that's Determinator levels of willpower.

...Side-note: I motion for any endgame willpower trait we get to be called "Determinator".
 
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