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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[x] Yes. You can trust him with this. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" option occurs next year; even if you don't take it, somebody will approach him to bring him in)
[X] "Hopeful" : Above all things, Kakara hopes and believes in making tomorrow better than today. All of the political effort, all the training, everything, it's not just about righting past wrongs, but about making things in the future better. Kakara believes this is possible. She holds onto that hope, uses it as the core of her drive to change herself and others. Not to mold them or force them or beat them down, but to lift them up, to perceive and strive for the hope that anyone can be better. Grandpa Gohan didn't have much hope for Jaffur, but he admitted he was wrong. Maybe what the Exiles need now is some Hope, a vision to be stirred toward.


Also I find the arguments over 'rationalism' to be hilarious.

This is not a universe where a rationalist mindset will be in any way beneficial.
 
[X] No. Patriarch Yammar makes good points about his reliability. You don't really know him yet. ("Recruit Sensei Carrick" options are permanently struck from the yearly options and will not reappear in the absence of new information; your co-conspirators will respect your judgment as the one who knows this man most on a matter as delicate as this)

We don't actually need him for this, so there's no point in bringing him in. I do think the chance that he snitches on us is minuscule (at worst he might just decide to stay out of it), especially if we can get him to promise not to tell anyone before we tell him anything, and trusting people has worked well for us so far, but, well, there's no need, so we shouldn't waste an action on it.

[] "Passionate." You are alive in a way it seems few other people are. When you look at the world, you see it exploding with amazing things that you want to experience or possess. You can do no less than to burn just as brightly.

I'd actually prefer "Organized", but I don't think that has a chance of winning right now.
 
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Sucal said:
Also I find the arguments over 'rationalism' to be hilarious.

This is not a universe where a rationalist mindset will be in any way beneficial.
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I disagree. The whole point of a rational actor is that if an approach isn't working, you change it so that it does. A rational character in a "real world" setting would act vastly different to a rational character in a world that ran on Plot and Stereotypes and Million-To-One-Chances working 9 times out of 10.
Besides, although this is set in the DBZ universe we aren't following the same genre conventions.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I disagree. The whole point of a rational actor is that if an approach isn't working, you change it so that it does. A rational character in a "real world" setting would act vastly different to a rational character in a world that ran on Plot and Stereotypes and Million-To-One-Chances working 9 times out of 10.
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Well that was sort of my one :rofl:
 
Bommelom said:
[X] "Passionate." You are alive in a way it seems few other people are. When you look at the world, you see it exploding with amazing things that you want to experience or possess. You can do no less than to burn just as brightly.

I'd actually prefer "Organized", but I don't think that has a chance of winning right now.
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I feel bayesian regret.

[X] "Passionate." You are alive in a way it seems few other people are. When you look at the world, you see it exploding with amazing things that you want to experience or possess. You can do no less than to burn just as brightly.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I disagree. The whole point of a rational actor is that if an approach isn't working, you change it so that it does. A rational character in a "real world" setting would act vastly different to a rational character in a world that ran on Plot and Stereotypes and Million-To-One-Chances working 9 times out of 10.
Besides, although this is set in the DBZ universe we aren't following the same genre conventions.
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Ah but Poptart has already informed us that certain power ups do still have the same kind of conventions that are shown in the anime, so a rational actor would be locked out of them without becoming 'irrational'
 
[X] "Hopeful" : Above all things, Kakara hopes and believes in making tomorrow better than today. All of the political effort, all the training, everything, it's not just about righting past wrongs, but about making things in the future better. Kakara believes this is possible. She holds onto that hope, uses it as the core of her drive to change herself and others. Not to mold them or force them or beat them down, but to lift them up, to perceive and strive for the hope that anyone can be better. Grandpa Gohan didn't have much hope for Jaffur, but he admitted he was wrong. Maybe what the Exiles need now is some Hope, a vision to be stirred toward.
 
I probably shouldn't be complaining since I am voting for passionate but you do realize it hasn't even been a day since the vote started? It is a bit early to throw the towel in any options, specially when you have time to make an argument about why they are better.
 
Sucal said:
Ah but Poptart has already informed us that certain power ups do still have the same kind of conventions that are shown in the anime, so a rational actor would be locked out of them without becoming 'irrational'
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You missed his point. A rational actor will use the existing conversations if that is the most effective way to achieve their goal.
 
Sucal said:
Ah but Poptart has already informed us that certain power ups do still have the same kind of conventions that are shown in the anime, so a rational actor would be locked out of them without becoming 'irrational'
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No? By definition, if acting in a certain way leads to a better outcome and you know this (and we do!) then that is the rational way to act, even if it would be incorrect in another set of circumstances (e.g. the real world). If we got a wish every time we did a backflip and screamed "purple bunnies!" at the top of our lungs, then the rational course of action would be to keep doing backflips whilst screaming "purple bunnies!"

I think you're making the classic logic vs emotions fallacy, as exemplified by the Straw Vulcan - TV Tropes . Or a variation on such.
 
Bakkasama said:
I probably shouldn't be complaining since I am voting for passionate but you do realize it hasn't even been a day since the vote started? It is a bit early to throw the towel in any options, specially when you have time to make an argument about why they are better.
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How long do updates usually take?

Argument:
Also of the other motivations are morality neutral. They simply allow use to do whatever we vote to do better by whatever method. Well as hopeful is limited and actually forces decisions therefore limiting our options. I want to vote for something that gives us more agency.
 
fictionfan said:
How long do updates usually take?

Argument:
Also of the other motivations are morality neutral. They simply allow use to do whatever we vote to do better by whatever method. Well as hopeful is limited and actually forces decisions therefore limiting our options. I want to vote for something that gives us more agency.
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Proof?
 
fictionfan said:
Hopeful is limited to actions to make the world better in general. I am not sure it will apply to training actions or political games.
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Is it? That's strange, at most I envisioned it as limiting us away from destrutive, nihilistic actions, or ones that try to actively make the world worse.

I mean, I guess @PoptartProdigy can clarify if you're correct about how limiting the Trait I wrote up is.
 
In Dragon ball power comes from need if we're are hopeful then we might not feel that need because we expect everything to work out.
 
Nihilism is the natural maturation of idealism, and absurdism is the maturation of nihilism. Embrace the absurd, vote spunky oddball!
 
fictionfan said:
In Dragon ball power comes from need if we're are hopeful then we might not feel that need because we expect everything to work out.
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Right, okay, seriously dude, you're actively working to twist the Trait to be the only "bad" trait, and I really feel like you're singling me, and this Trait, out.
I get it, you don't like it, you prefer other options. That's fine!
Do you see me spending multiple posts on how other Trait picks are WrongBadTerribleAnti-Fun? Because I'm not. But that's really how these posts from you are coming across.

And you're fueling it with irrational, baseless assumptions that you're presenting as assertions.
 
Ironically, this is exactly the sort of misunderstanding I was worried about. As the QM ruled, the trait is explicitly about hope for the future, not the current state of affairs.

EDIT: I hate posting from my phone.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
No? By definition, if acting in a certain way leads to a better outcome and you know this (and we do!) then that is the rational way to act, even if it would be incorrect in another set of circumstances (e.g. the real world). If we got a wish every time we did a backflip and screamed "purple bunnies!" at the top of our lungs, then the rational course of action would be to keep doing backflips whilst screaming "purple bunnies!"

I think you're making the classic logic vs emotions fallacy, as exemplified by the Straw Vulcan - TV Tropes . Or a variation on such.
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I'll note that you can't necessarily consciously choose the optimal way to act in a universe like DBZ (or, rather, that there might not just be an optimal way to act but also an optimal way to feel). For instance, if we got a power boost (and/or, mechanically, a willpower boost resulting in a willpower push resulting in a power boost) by going into a rage, that doesn't mean we can consciously decide to do that, and a person who generally tries to act rationally would eventually become less prone to emotional outbursts. Not that I'm saying we'll get power boosts from raging (we're not Gohan, after all), but archieving Super Saiyan 2, for instance, takes an epiphany, which we can't consciously choose to have.
 
fictionfan said:
In Dragon ball power comes from need if we're are hopeful then we might not feel that need because we expect everything to work out.
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..I'm not sure if you've read the trait properly or if you're just extrapolating from the name. The trait isn't about Kakara believing that everything will work out, it's about Kakara wanting to make everything work out.
 
"The rejection of hope, in absurdism, denotes the refusal to believe in anything more than what this absurd life provides. Hope, Camus emphasizes, however, has nothing to do with despair (meaning that the two terms are not opposites). One can still live fully while rejecting hope, and, in fact, can only do so without hope. Hope is perceived by the absurdist as another fraudulent method of evading the Absurd, and by not having hope, one is motivated to live every fleeting moment to the fullest. In the words of Nikos Kazantzakis' epitaph: 'I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free.'"

"For Camus, the beauty people encounter in life makes it worth living. People may create meaning in their own lives, which may not be the objective meaning of life (if there is one), but can still provide something to strive for. However, he insisted that one must always maintain an ironic distance between this invented meaning and the knowledge of the absurd, lest the fictitious meaning take the place of the absurd."​


Hope is a delusion, spunky oddball is forever.
 
Bommelom said:
I'll note that you can't necessarily consciously choose the optimal way to act in a universe like DBZ (or, rather, that there might not just be an optimal way to act but also an optimal way to feel). For instance, if we got a power boost (and/or, mechanically, a willpower boost resulting in a willpower push resulting in a power boost) by going into a rage, that doesn't mean we can consciously decide to do that, and a person who generally tries to act rationally would eventually become less prone to emotional outbursts. Not that I'm saying we'll get power boosts from raging (we're not Gohan, after all), but archieving Super Saiyan 2, for instance, takes an epiphany, which we can't consciously choose to have.
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Ah, that's a common misconception. Being rational in no way involves suppressing your emotions or feelings. It does involve divorcing said feelings from the decision-making process, but you don't feel them any less. You can use them for motivation, but not actually making decisions (well, you try - no-one's perfect.)

I accept that we can't necessarily choose to have an epiphany, but that makes a good decision-making process completely irrelevant to that factor, not an actual drawback.

Overall then, it's strictly a neutral/non-factor in these scenarios, whilst good decision-making can strictly only be a good thing.
 
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