Kakara could well be considered complicit in the rebellion if she does anything but immediately tell her father what she knows. She is taking a huge risk just talking to him. This is an extremely serious matter for both of them, and it isn't antagonistic to treat it seriously. Even a flat, "You have exactly one chance to convince me why I should risk my life for you," wouldn't be out of line, because giving them that one chance and even considering risking her life for them in the first place is already incredibly generous.
I mean, you're not wrong, but there's not really anything of substance different between our posts except the overall tone. Everything you've said is immediately apparent to both people in the room, but there's a difference between serious and blunt-to-the-point-of-rude, and I feel that we'll get better results for being polite. I just don't see what you think we'll get from being rude to the politician we might have to work with in the future, when not doing so costs nothing.
Another point is that it's kind of more in-character for Kakara to not just immediately entirely drop her general "niceness" as soon as we have a perceived advantage. Raditz knowing that as soon as we have an advantage we won't hesitate to lord it over him even when it's unnecessary can only lead to bad blood.
Finally, I edited my last post with why we're so determined not to just assume Raditz is our newest BFF and tell him all our secrets, if any of you missed it and are confused.
EDIT: For those who want to just spill our guts to the guy, remember he's the Head of House Senzu. They're rich and well-connected; this man is going to be a politician through and through. I don't believe they intend anything physically hostile, but he's invited us back to his house because he thinks it's the best way to get what he wants. We don't know that the guy is working against our interests, but we similarly we can't know that his interests align with ours either; we need more information before making any decisions, especially one as serious as letting slip we might be plotting treason against our father and Dandeer.
No, he invited us back to his house we just discovered him and figuring out what we want is probably a better idea than just telling us to leave or trying to fight us.
And, well, we might not know for sure what he wants, but considering the Senzu went into hiding in response to the sealing I'm pretty sure that their goal is to unseal Lord Vegeta and/or Jaffur.
I also don't think there's any risks to telling him we're planning to commit treason, given that he's himself a traitor and won't be able to tell anything to Berra without being either arrested or executed (also, even talking with the Senzu clan without informing Berra might be just as illegal as unsealing Jaffur).
Kakara could well be considered complicit in the rebellion if she does anything but immediately tell her father what she knows. She is taking a huge risk just talking to him. This is an extremely serious matter for both of them, and it isn't antagonistic to treat it seriously. Even a flat, "You have exactly one chance to convince me why I should risk my life for you," wouldn't be out of line, because giving them that one chance and even considering risking her life for them in the first place is already incredibly generous.
If we act suspicious, cautious, demanding and secretive, I think he's less likely to tell us everything than if we're friendly to him, because politicians who are at ease are more likely to slip than politicians who are carefully considering every word they say (as said words will decide the fate of their entire family), not to mention that said attitude would be way out of line with her greetings to the Senzu.
No, he invited us back to his house we just discovered him and figuring out what we want is probably a better idea than just telling us to leave or trying to fight us.
And, well, we might not know for sure what he wants, but considering the Senzu went into hiding in response to the sealing I'm pretty sure that their goal is to unseal Lord Vegeta and/or Jaffur.
I also don't think there's any risks to telling him we're planning to commit treason, given that he's himself a traitor and won't be able to tell anything to Berra without being either arrested or executed (heck, even talking with the Senzu clan without informing Berra might be just as illegal as unsealing Jaffur).
I respectfully disagree with all of your points. We could have had this discussion right where we met him, or possibly flown a bit to another spot to avoid anyone following to our last known location. Him inviting us back to their hall is a show of trust, but (and I cannot stress this enough) he's an experienced politician; his duty compels him to act in the best interests of his clan (and self-interest for his own), which might not be the same as ours.
It's likely that their goals at least partially include unsealing, but we don't know that's all there is to it; that alone wouldn't necessarily be enough to send the entire house into hiding.
Finally, his being a traitor does NOT mean that telling him we're one too is safe; how hard would it be to tell us that if we don't do as he says, he'll send a message to our father telling him of our plans? Or that he's sent the message already, and only he can stop it? It might not even be morally wrong from his perspective; his duty is to his house, and that might be best served by having Goku's Scion on a leash...
Overall, I feel we're best served by getting his answers before making any decisions. It costs us nothing, and might have important ramifications regarding our own decisions.
I mean, you're not wrong, but there's not really anything of substance different between our posts except the overall tone. Everything you've said is immediately apparent to both people in the room, but there's a difference between serious and blunt-to-the-point-of-rude, and I feel that we'll get better results for being polite. I just don't see what you think we'll get from being rude to the politician we might have to work with in the future, when not doing so costs nothing.
Another point is that it's kind of more in-character for Kakara to not just immediately entirely drop her general "niceness" as soon as we have a perceived advantage. Raditz knowing that as soon as we have an advantage we won't hesitate to lord it over him even when it's unnecessary can only lead to bad blood.
Finally, I edited my last post with why we're so determined not to just assume Raditz is our newest BFF and tell him all our secrets, if any of you missed it and are confused.
It's close, but does give away a bit more information than mine simply by being more specific in the questioning. I suppose it come down to personal assessments of the tradeoffs on that. I can't imagine that an experienced politician would hold it against her in the slightest when she's basically giving out free gifts. This isn't a trade and she doesn't want anything from him other than knowledge of whether their goals are compatible gained with the minimum exposure of herself and the only alternative being his annihilation. He's basically asking for a hell of a favor at great risk to her, and it's not predatory for her to try to minimize that risk by putting conditions on the favor.
No, he invited us back to his house we just discovered him and figuring out what we want is probably a better idea than just telling us to leave or trying to fight us.
And, well, we might not know for sure what he wants, but considering the Senzu went into hiding in response to the sealing I'm pretty sure that their goal is to unseal Lord Vegeta and/or Jaffur.
I also don't think there's any risks to telling him we're planning to commit treason, given that he's himself a traitor and won't be able to tell anything to Berra without being either arrested or executed (also, even talking with the Senzu clan without informing Berra might be just as illegal as unsealing Jaffur).
If we act suspicious, cautious, demanding and secretive, I think he's less likely to tell us everything than if we're friendly to him, because politicians who are at ease are more likely to slip than politicians who are carefully considering every word they say (as said words will decide the fate of their entire family), not to mention that said attitude would be way out of line with her greetings to the Senzu.
It's entirely possible that in his mind he's the honorable resistance against somebody else who has committed treason, and hence will react extremely badly to another example of what he perceives as treason.
-and, again, it's entirely possible that their plan and very survival depends on the seal not being broken. With the regency fraying apart and their heirs already Super-Saiyans before anybody can stop them they have by far the strongest claim to the lordship.
If a smiling face is the critical factor in a seasoned politician slipping up when their entire family's lives are on the line they are an absolutely crap politician. He will be watching every single word he says no matter what approach we take, and it will behoove us to do the same. The guy who hid his entire family and multiple irreplaceable strategic resources by unilaterally deleting the memories of an entire planet isn't in any position to consider anybody else excessively cautious.
It's close, but does give away a bit more information than mine simply by being more specific in the questioning. I suppose it come down to personal assessments of the tradeoffs on that. I can't imagine that an experienced politician would hold it against her in the slightest when she's basically giving out free gifts. This isn't a trade and she doesn't want anything from him other than knowledge of whether their goals are compatible gained with the minimum exposure of herself and the only alternative being his annihilation. He's basically asking for a hell of a favor at great risk to her, and it's not predatory for her to try to minimize that risk by putting conditions on the favor.
Closely examining the two approaches, the only thing I explicitly give away is that we aren't sure why they decided going into hiding was their best option, which I don't think is a big deal compared to getting his explicit answer on the subject. Experienced politician or not, he's not going to see it as abject generosity that we allow his house to go on living, as much as a not-at-all veiled threat. We've already heavily implied we aren't going to give away their location, and quite frankly barring his answers being very unexpected we aren't going to; it gives the impression that we can't be trusted if we say we might give him away anyway. I suppose I wouldn't mind us drawing attention to the fact that we're taking a risk by coming here and not giving them away, if it was worded well? Your vote is still pretty rude, and OOC (no offense).
Ok, no. From what I can tell, the argument right now is not getting us anywhere. All the votes to gather information can be summarized with a KISS formula:
[x] First you want to know what have they been up to. They went into hiding in response to the sealing. What do they plan to do about it?
There. Was that so hard? I think @Lailoken is a bit paranoid regarding the Lannisbean's plot to take power, since they seemed pretty close to Jaffur. I am actually more inclined to go straight to recruiting since I don't feel like micromanaging and ending up with tiny updates after how long the Garenhuld council ended up being (I want to turn ten darn it!) but waiting for him to explain before we give our pich is a minimal concession I guess.
By the way, since Plan Honest Truth wants to tell them about Jaron, have you considered adding how Jaffur is growing attached to Jaron and how releazing their trapped leader without solving that is a bad idea?
Ok, no. From what I can tell, the argument right now is not getting us anywhere. All the votes to gather information can be summarized with a KISS formula:
[x] First you want to know what have they been up to. They went into hiding in response to the sealing. What do they plan to do about it?
There. Was that so hard? I think @Lailoken is a bit paranoid regarding the Lannisbean's plot to take power, since they seemed pretty close to Jaffur. I am actually more inclined to go straight to recruiting since I don't feel like micromanaging and ending up with tiny updates after how long the Garenhuld council ended up being (I want to turn ten darn it!) but waiting for him to explain before we give our pich is a minimal concession I guess.
By the way, since Plan Honest Truth wants to tell them about Jaron, have you considered adding how Jaffur is growing attached to Jaron and how releazing their trapped leader without solving that is a bad idea?
Yeah OK, letting the QM decide on our exact tone probably works just fine anyway. Though in the longer run, I think this conversation is pretty likely to have a massive impact on both our plans and position, and whilst @Lailoken is pretty paranoid he's not actually wrong.
I respectfully disagree with all of your points. We could have had this discussion right where we met him, or possibly flown a bit to another spot to avoid anyone following to our last known location. Him inviting us back to their hall is a show of trust, but (and I cannot stress this enough) he's an experienced politician; his duty compels him to act in the best interests of his clan (and self-interest for his own), which might not be the same as ours.
I disagree with that part, actually. Going into hiding and thereby committing treason is not in the best interest of his clan, so he's likely acting according to moral principles or a duty to the Saiyans as a whole.
In addition, it's not like we wouldn't have been able to have all the Senzus arrested if he hadn't invited us back to his house, and I really don't think he wants anything out of this meaning other than an assurance that we're not going to tell Berra about him.
It's likely that their goals at least partially include unsealing, but we don't know that's all there is to it; that alone wouldn't necessarily be enough to send the entire house into hiding.
Well, currently I don't actually think going into hiding was a practical move rather than a refusal to serve what they see as an unlawful ruler/regent, but in addition to that, Berra saw Raditz attempt to turn into a Super Saiyan. While he might have let him gotten off with a slap on the wrist if he thought Raditz was going to accept Dandeer's actions, he'd definitely have punished him if he thought he might try to unseal Jaffur or Vegeta.
Finally, his being a traitor does NOT mean that telling him we're one too is safe; how hard would it be to tell us that if we don't do as he says, he'll send a message to our father telling him of our plans? Or that he's sent the message already, and only he can stop it? It might not even be morally wrong from his perspective; his duty is to his house, and that might be best served by having Goku's Scion on a leash...
Any threat to reveal our treachery would pretty much be a bluff, though, given that we can threaten to tell Berra about his location if he tells Berra anything.
Not to mention that I'm not sure unsealing Jaffur would technically be treason (Berra might declare us a criminal for doing so, but I don't think Apra (and possibly Yammar too) is going to let him punish us).
It's entirely possible that in his mind he's the honorable resistance against somebody else who has committed treason, and hence will react extremely badly to another example of what he perceives as treason.
He attempted to prevent Jaffur's sealing at the hands of Dandeer who was technically Lord Vegeta's regent when in happened, not to mention that, again, I don't think trying to unseal Jaffur is legally treason.
-and, again, it's entirely possible that their plan and very survival depends on the seal not being broken. With the regency fraying apart and their heirs already Super-Saiyans before anybody can stop them they have by far the strongest claim to the lordship.
By the way, since Plan Honest Truth wants to tell them about Jaron, have you considered adding how Jaffur is growing attached to Jaron and how releazing their trapped leader without solving that is a bad idea?
This is not a situation where being a better fighter is going to help; we're going into this with low skill levels in deceit and intrigue, against a master of the art. We're rushing into this way too fast, even after explicit QM warning to be careful about what we say!
Ok, no. From what I can tell, the argument right now is not getting us anywhere. All the votes to gather information can be summarized with a KISS formula:
[x] First you want to know what have they been up to. They went into hiding in response to the sealing. What do they plan to do about it?
There. Was that so hard? I think @Lailoken is a bit paranoid regarding the Lannisbean's plot to take power, since they seemed pretty close to Jaffur. I am actually more inclined to go straight to recruiting since I don't feel like micromanaging and ending up with tiny updates after how long the Garenhuld council ended up being (I want to turn ten darn it!) but waiting for him to explain before we give our pich is a minimal concession I guess.
By the way, since Plan Honest Truth wants to tell them about Jaron, have you considered adding how Jaffur is growing attached to Jaron and how releazing their trapped leader without solving that is a bad idea?
Don't worry, you're ten by now. You have a mid-year birthday.
Now, I know that write-in votes can be intimidating to the more casual posters, so here's a breakdown of all the current proposals that people are forwarding, how the voting stands, and what the votes mean, to help you all with parsing.
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 192 | Sufficient Velocity ##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X] Plan Honest Truth
-[X] Tell him you came here because you want to unseal Jaffur, and, well, Dandelor is a sorceror who's very opposed to Dandeer. You also want to ask him a few questions, though.
-[X] Don't necessarily do everything below in order, do it in the way that makes most sense.
-[X] You're curious to why precisely they hid, and what they have been doing for the last two years.
--[X] Did they hide because Raditz almost transformed, because they believe Dandeer's rule is unlawful or because they're planning something?
-[X] What do they know about the seal? Do they know how to undo it?
--[X] If they don't know, tell them that Jaron and Jaffur are separate people and the seal trapped Jaffur within his own mind.
-[X] How much do they know about what's been happening outside?
--[X] If the answer is "not much", tell them the important events of the last two years.
-[X] What do they think should be done with Lord Vegeta? Also, while you think he's a horrible father and person, how was he as a ruler compared to Yammar, or, if they've been observing recent events, Dandeer?
This is our presence front-runner, pending plan-writer @Bommelom deliberating on whether or not to switch to or incorporate the option below.
"Honest Truth" is a comprehensive full-disclosure option. It opens by disclosing absolutely everything about your motivations and segues into immediate cooperation with the Senzus with a focus on sharing as much relevant information as either party has, including the truth about Jaron. It also has under its remit Kakara moving into the opening stages of formulating an action plan by asking after Raditz's opinions on what can or should be done about the various aspects of the Seals.
[x] First you want to know what have they been up to. They went into hiding in response to the sealing. What do they plan to do about it? No. of Votes: 2
This is the present second-place option, although with Bommelom considering switching over or incorporating it, that may change.
Explicitly described as the, "Keep It Simple, Stupid," option, this one covers in minimal specified detail Kakara requesting that Raditz explain what his House has been doing and what they plan on doing in response to the Sealing. Plays your cards very close to your chest and places the ball in Raditz's court.
[X] Plan Tea Party
[X] I haven't seen Betreal in SO LONG! Like, forever. I wanted to see him again! He was my first real friend, you know. I wanted to invite him to a tea party for all of my non-Super Saiyan friends! I'm gonna invite Sophie and Maya and Jennifer - she hates being called Jenny - and Gemina and Jaron and Felicity and I'd love if you can come as Barry or Barney or whatever your Masqued name is.
-[X] I also wanted to make sure none of you had been doing something super illegal, like dying your hair blonde. Lotsa stuff is happening, and I really really really hope you can all stop hiding soon, but if there's been any hair dye involved, it'll be SO. MUCH. HARDER.
-[X] Oh, they threw Jaffur's mom out of the Ancestor Cult thingy and I stopped a coup just by making people talk! You'll probably hear about it on the radio soon. Your radio still works, right? It isn't blocked by all the hiding magic you're using?
-[X] Anyway, I just want to see when you guys are coming back to the non-hiding world, because it'll be much better to have you all together. Maybe we can get everyone together and talk? No. of Votes: 1
This one is the oddball option, and it takes a look at the Oddball trait and responds with, "ALL IN, MOTHERF*CKERS!" Behind the silly, here's what it's accomplishing: It says virtually nothing about Kakara's own intentions, thus allowing you to defer that until you get answers to your questions. Those questions being whether or not the Senzus have been chasing transformations and when (and, by extension, how) they plan on returning to wider society. It also informs him of Dandeer's excommunication. It also includes a request to see Betarel, which based on Bob's comments is in aid of speaking to him specifically because he's almost certainly worse at keeping secrets than his father is.
[X]Politely request that he explain why his House has gone into hiding these past few years. Many disagreed with the sealing of the Vegetas, but none of them went into what could be seen as a rebellion (try and work out if Raditz did so because he tried to power up, but don't say so). Explain that we are looking for a way to resolve this difficult situation peacefully, but don't imply that we're planning to unlawfully reverse the sealing. He's the Head of a rich and powerful house, he's likely better at politics than we are - at least the dishonest bits. No. of Votes: 1
This plan very much keeps things close to the chest and requests answers from Raditz. It tries to find out why they went into hiding above anything else, with especial focus to Raditz's failed transformation. It is deliberately neutral on your intentions, avoiding implying any illegal intent on your part. It is the only plan to explicitly note that Raditz is an expert politician and that caution is warranted, but Kakara will account for that in any option, so you needn't worry. Conversationally, this is a highly defensive strategy.
[X] "I have held my peace on that matter for several years, and feel it best to continue for at least a moment longer. In fact, I would suggest that since the very fact of this conversation already demonstrates my general goodwill it would be more fitting for you to be the one to begin the disclosures. What are your intentions and methods, and why is assisting you the right thing for me to do? Convince me." No. of Votes: 1
In stark contrast to the previous option, this one is very aggressive. It assumes the position of conversational advantage and promptly goes to work using it. It tacitly points out to Raditz that Kakara holds all or at least many cards here and places him in the position of petitioning her for her favor and assistance, pointing out that, as Raditz himself said, the mere fact of her presence is proof enough of her intentions.
I disagree with that part, actually. Going into hiding and thereby committing treason is not in the best interest of his clan, so he's likely acting according to moral principles or a duty to the Saiyans as a whole.
We don't know that, because we don't know what his plans are or what he considers to be the best interests of his house. (I'm worried he's more interested in the good of his House as its' Head than the Clan as a whole).
In addition, it's not like we wouldn't have been able to have all the Senzus arrested if he hadn't invited us back to his house, and I really don't think he wants anything out of this meaning other than an assurance that we're not going to tell Berra about him.
Well, currently I don't actually think going into hiding was a practical move rather than a refusal to serve what they see as an unlawful ruler/regent, but in addition to that, Berra saw Raditz attempt to turn into a Super Saiyan. While he might have let him gotten off with a slap on the wrist if he thought Raditz was going to accept Dandeer's actions, he'd definitely have punished him if he thought he might try to unseal Jaffur or Vegeta.
The first point is an assumption I don't think it's safe to make (both in terms of likelihood and risk) and while I concede the second point, it implies he's willing to put his personal wellbeing over that of his clan/house, which undermines your other points regarding his moral principles or duty.
Any threat to reveal our treachery would pretty much be a bluff, though, given that we can threaten to tell Berra about his location if he tells Berra anything.
Not to mention that I'm not sure unsealing Jaffur would technically be treason (Berra might declare us a criminal for doing so, but I don't think Apra (and possibly Yammar too) is going to let him punish us).
Okay I concede that the hypothetical blackmail was a bad example, but just telling him instantly weakens our position; we should at least try and get more information out of him. And unsealing Jaffur would definitely be treason, going against the decision of the Clan Head and Regent. Frankly, the Matriarch and Patriarch coming to bail us out would mean the situation has deteriorated massively from how we want this to go down.
He attempted to prevent Jaffur's sealing at the hands of Dandeer who was technically Lord Vegeta's regent when in happened, not to mention that, again, I don't think trying to unseal Jaffur is legally treason.
Don't worry, you're ten by now. You have a mid-year birthday.
Now, I know that write-in votes can be intimidating to the more casual posters, so here's a breakdown of all the current proposals that people are forwarding, how the voting stands, and what the votes mean, to help you all with parsing.
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 192 | Sufficient Velocity ##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X] Plan Honest Truth
-[X] Tell him you came here because you want to unseal Jaffur, and, well, Dandelor is a sorceror who's very opposed to Dandeer. You also want to ask him a few questions, though.
-[X] Don't necessarily do everything below in order, do it in the way that makes most sense.
-[X] You're curious to why precisely they hid, and what they have been doing for the last two years.
--[X] Did they hide because Raditz almost transformed, because they believe Dandeer's rule is unlawful or because they're planning something?
-[X] What do they know about the seal? Do they know how to undo it?
--[X] If they don't know, tell them that Jaron and Jaffur are separate people and the seal trapped Jaffur within his own mind.
-[X] How much do they know about what's been happening outside?
--[X] If the answer is "not much", tell them the important events of the last two years.
-[X] What do they think should be done with Lord Vegeta? Also, while you think he's a horrible father and person, how was he as a ruler compared to Yammar, or, if they've been observing recent events, Dandeer?
This is our presence front-runner, pending plan-writer @Bommelom deliberating on whether or not to switch to or incorporate the option below.
"Honest Truth" is a comprehensive full-disclosure option. It opens by disclosing absolutely everything about your motivations and segues into immediate cooperation with the Senzus with a focus on sharing as much relevant information as either party has, including the truth about Jaron. It also has under its remit Kakara moving into the opening stages of formulating an action plan by asking after Raditz's opinions on what can or should be done about the various aspects of the Seals.
[x] First you want to know what have they been up to. They went into hiding in response to the sealing. What do they plan to do about it? No. of Votes: 2
This is the present second-place option, although with Bommelom considering switching over or incorporating it, that may change.
Explicitly described as the, "Keep It Simple, Stupid," option, this one covers in minimal specified detail Kakara requesting that Raditz explain what his House has been doing and what they plan on doing in response to the Sealing. Plays your cards very close to your chest and places the ball in Raditz's court.
[X] Plan Tea Party
[X] I haven't seen Betreal in SO LONG! Like, forever. I wanted to see him again! He was my first real friend, you know. I wanted to invite him to a tea party for all of my non-Super Saiyan friends! I'm gonna invite Sophie and Maya and Jennifer - she hates being called Jenny - and Gemina and Jaron and Felicity and I'd love if you can come as Barry or Barney or whatever your Masqued name is.
-[X] I also wanted to make sure none of you had been doing something super illegal, like dying your hair blonde. Lotsa stuff is happening, and I really really really hope you can all stop hiding soon, but if there's been any hair dye involved, it'll be SO. MUCH. HARDER.
-[X] Oh, they threw Jaffur's mom out of the Ancestor Cult thingy and I stopped a coup just by making people talk! You'll probably hear about it on the radio soon. Your radio still works, right? It isn't blocked by all the hiding magic you're using?
-[X] Anyway, I just want to see when you guys are coming back to the non-hiding world, because it'll be much better to have you all together. Maybe we can get everyone together and talk? No. of Votes: 1
This one is the oddball option, and it takes a look at the Oddball trait and responds with, "ALL IN, MOTHERF*CKERS!" Behind the silly, here's what it's accomplishing: It says virtually nothing about Kakara's own intentions, thus allowing you to defer that until you get answers to your questions. Those questions being whether or not the Senzus have been chasing transformations and when (and, by extension, how) they plan on returning to wider society. It also informs him of Dandeer's excommunication. It also includes a request to see Betarel, which based on Bob's comments is in aid of speaking to him specifically because he's almost certainly worse at keeping secrets than his father is.
[X]Politely request that he explain why his House has gone into hiding these past few years. Many disagreed with the sealing of the Vegetas, but none of them went into what could be seen as a rebellion (try and work out if Raditz did so because he tried to power up, but don't say so). Explain that we are looking for a way to resolve this difficult situation peacefully, but don't imply that we're planning to unlawfully reverse the sealing. He's the Head of a rich and powerful house, he's likely better at politics than we are - at least the dishonest bits. No. of Votes: 1
This plan very much keeps things close to the chest and requests answers from Raditz. It tries to find out why they went into hiding above anything else, with especial focus to Raditz's failed transformation. It is deliberately neutral on your intentions, avoiding implying any illegal intent on your part. It is the only plan to explicitly note that Raditz is an expert politician and that caution is warranted, but Kakara will account for that in any option, so you needn't worry. Conversationally, this is a highly defensive strategy.
[X] "I have held my peace on that matter for several years, and feel it best to continue for at least a moment longer. In fact, I would suggest that since the very fact of this conversation already demonstrates my general goodwill it would be more fitting for you to be the one to begin the disclosures. What are your intentions and methods, and why is assisting you the right thing for me to do? Convince me." No. of Votes: 1
In stark contrast to the previous option, this one is very aggressive. It assumes the position of conversational advantage and promptly goes to work using it. It tacitly points out to Raditz that Kakara holds all or at least many cards here and places him in the position of petitioning her for her favor and assistance, pointing out that, as Raditz himself said, the mere fact of her presence is proof enough of her intentions.
Thanks for the summaries! I asked a question in an edit that might not have popped up on your feed, so I'll ask again here: what did we know about Raditz before we got here? Had we ever met, other than at the sealing?
EDIT: Looking at this again, I feel I should clarify I meant this as "I'm an idiot who messed up my posting so I'll try and fix it" rather than a whiny "why haven't you answered me yet", which I suspect it comes across as in text.
Thanks for the summaries! I asked a question in an edit that might not have popped up on your feed, so I'll ask again here: what did we know about Raditz before we got here? Had we ever met, other than at the sealing?
The Sealing was the first time you met. As for what you know: House Senzu in general have been noted centrists on most issues, and their latest Head continues that trend. Raditz is an honorable man and a shrewd political operator, but holds any factional political opinions close to his chest. He, like his House, is noted most of all for his dedication to the ideal of a strong, united Clan. House Senzu are reliable loyalists due to their belief in keeping the Clan strong. That combined with their willingness to cross idealogical or even Clan boundaries in pursuit of their aims makes them adaptable and valued servants of the ruling House.
The Sealing was the first time you met. As for what you know: House Senzu in general have been noted centrists on most issues, and their latest Head continues that trend. Raditz is an honorable man and a shrewd political operator, but holds any factional political opinions close to his chest. He, like his House, is noted most of all for his dedication to the ideal of a strong, united Clan. House Senzu are reliable loyalists due to their belief in keeping the Clan strong. That combined with their willingness to cross idealogical or even Clan boundaries in pursuit of their aims makes them adaptable and valued servants of the ruling House.
Ok, no. From what I can tell, the argument right now is not getting us anywhere. All the votes to gather information can be summarized with a KISS formula:
[x] First you want to know what have they been up to. They went into hiding in response to the sealing. What do they plan to do about it?
There. Was that so hard? I think @Lailoken is a bit paranoid regarding the Lannisbean's plot to take power, since they seemed pretty close to Jaffur. I am actually more inclined to go straight to recruiting since I don't feel like micromanaging and ending up with tiny updates after how long the Garenhuld council ended up being (I want to turn ten darn it!) but waiting for him to explain before we give our pich is a minimal concession I guess.
By the way, since Plan Honest Truth wants to tell them about Jaron, have you considered adding how Jaffur is growing attached to Jaron and how releazing their trapped leader without solving that is a bad idea?
This tells them that we think they fled in response to the sealing, which isn't assured. In fact, we've had people here arguing that they fled in response to Raditz's ascension attempt.
I'm still not sure why people are so worked up at the idea that Jaron is a different identity. The point of the sealing was to create a different identity. The only odd part is that Jaffur's identity is continuing to run simultaneously, but that's not really a moral concern. Multiple identities and their resolution is not a new concept.
Yeah OK, letting the QM decide on our exact tone probably works just fine anyway. Though in the longer run, I think this conversation is pretty likely to have a massive impact on both our plans and position, and whilst @Lailoken is pretty paranoid he's not actually wrong.
I disagree with that part, actually. Going into hiding and thereby committing treason is not in the best interest of his clan, so he's likely acting according to moral principles or a duty to the Saiyans as a whole.
In addition, it's not like we wouldn't have been able to have all the Senzus arrested if he hadn't invited us back to his house, and I really don't think he wants anything out of this meaning other than an assurance that we're not going to tell Berra about him.
Well, currently I don't actually think going into hiding was a practical move rather than a refusal to serve what they see as an unlawful ruler/regent, but in addition to that, Berra saw Raditz attempt to turn into a Super Saiyan. While he might have let him gotten off with a slap on the wrist if he thought Raditz was going to accept Dandeer's actions, he'd definitely have punished him if he thought he might try to unseal Jaffur or Vegeta.
Any threat to reveal our treachery would pretty much be a bluff, though, given that we can threaten to tell Berra about his location if he tells Berra anything.
Not to mention that I'm not sure unsealing Jaffur would technically be treason (Berra might declare us a criminal for doing so, but I don't think Apra (and possibly Yammar too) is going to let him punish us).
He attempted to prevent Jaffur's sealing at the hands of Dandeer who was technically Lord Vegeta's regent when in happened, not to mention that, again, I don't think trying to unseal Jaffur is legally treason.
There's no evidence that he's disloyal to the system as a whole or planning a Super Saiyan rebelliion.
Also going to sleep soon, though, so I probably won't be responding to any replies to this until 8 hours or something.
I've already presented one possibility which might well look to him like it is in the best interests of both his house and the Saiyans as a whole.
An alternative explanation is that he wanted to get her back under the cloak and interrogate her before trying to dispose of her. A fight in the open would bring her father. A fight under the wards might not.
Berra doesn't have the authority to punish him. Even if he defies the legitimate authority of his house, it's is that authority's role to enforce it. Lords unilaterally enforcing across clan borders would blow the whole system up. Look at the lore screen. Things are so tense that even the peasants generally don't even talk to each other across clan lines, and Berra's actions already look a lot like a coup. If he started acting like the lord of Vegeta there would be war.
We can't tell Berra anything if we're dead, and it's debatable as to whether we could ever get back to this location without a lot of high-level magical assistance even if we got out. They deleted the memory of that one particular magically sealed portal once, and can probably do it again.
Unsealing Jaffur may not be treason, but we don't know whether or not he wants Jaffur unsealed at all. When I say he's guilty of treason, I mean that he made an ascension attempt and then led his house into rebellion while absconding with critical strategic resources precious to the entire species. That most definitely is legal treason.
Loyalty is a matter of interpretation. He's certainly disloyal according to the mainstream interpretation.
