- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Non-Masqued. I'll say Super Saiyan if that's what's going on, there'll be no doubt.
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Thanks. By the way, what's House Senzu currently guilty of and liable to be punished for according to Saiyan lore? It's sort of a passive rebellion and Raditz tried to power up that one time, but does Kakara know from her training what Berra is expected to do when he finds them?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The House of Senzu could be solidly tried for defying the will of their Lord by way of defying his accepted Regent. They could defend themselves if they successfully made a case for Dandeer having gained her position illegally, or in some way managed to show legal precedent for their actions.
Raditz's actions are a shakier case to press; while he certainly came right up to the edge of transforming, it's acknowledged that there's an involuntary aspect to your first no matter who you are -- one reason why Scions are explicitly not held responsible for whatever they do during their first transformation outside of very specific circumstances. The case would probably come down to a mind delve to determine whether or not Raditz's near-transformation was premeditated. If it was not, he would be released given that he didn't actually transform. If it was, then he would be found guilty of attempting it and it would come down to a matter of sentencing, which really depends on how Lady Vegeta is feeling that day given the wide range of precedents.
And, of course, if the members of House Senzu have been actively pursuing a Super Saiyan revolt, all adults would be easily found guilty, all children would be at serious risk of being found guilty, all adults would be executed, and the children would either be scattered among the Clan with new surnames or executed outright (although Yammar is the only precedent of child executions, it must be noted).
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. If we unsealed Jaffur would Dandeer remain regent, or would Jaffur be made lord right then? It seems pretty easy to argue that Dandeer's sealing of double Vegeta to obtain her position is unlawful, but if the judge is Berra or Dandeer herself... or, given their persoanl involvement, would they call in the Patriarch?
Raditz's shakier case is arguably harder to deal with then; I suppose one of the things we should be asking him (along with if he ever tried again) is if he meant to do so.
Well, if we manage to knock Dandeer off her throne, would "desperately attempting to stop an unlawful seizing of power and fight-off a Super Saiyan helping such an attempt" be considered mitigating circumstances under most circumstances? Has such a thing ever come up? *looks at Lord Oni*
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Jaffur would be Scion again, but the instant he had children would become Lord, displacing Dandeer (whether or not she would survive long enough for that to be her exit from power is another matter). At the moment Dandeer is keeping up the line that the Sealing was a medical necessity and has Berra's tacit support on that, which makes the legalities...tense. There are very few people who would fight a Lord for Yammar Vegeta's sake.
If you're willing to sacrifice your reputation and legal standing in the doing
yes.
codeRR
dual hero
- Location
- Where am I?
At the risk of sounding stupid, I need a reminder
The reason why it's illegal for anyone but the scion and lord/lady of the two great clans to ascend to super saiyan status is because that would cause a lot of issues and make the masquerade much harder yes? That was all to it right?
The reason why it's illegal for anyone but the scion and lord/lady of the two great clans to ascend to super saiyan status is because that would cause a lot of issues and make the masquerade much harder yes? That was all to it right?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Yeesh, no thanks. better to just quietly undo the sealing and then have Jaffur try to prosecute Dandeer for wrongfully usurping the position of Lord and mindrape. I think we'll have a much better chance of convincing everyone who matters (AKA Dad) after Jaffur lets everyone know that Jaron isn't just him sans violent impulses, he's an entirely new consciousness that Jaffur the person has been trapped in the head of. That's not a medical intervention, that's a cruel and unusual imprisonment.
Did... we ever let anyone know about that vision? If we can prove it was a genuine Seeing and not a false vision, that might actually be enough to convince Dad to undo the sealing.
Yeah, pretty much. The Enemy is apparently sufficiently Bad News that the minor risk of Gerenhuld's population finding us and then subsequently being observed by outside forces was too great. It's the same reason no one can go SS2 at all, though it also doubles as a handy way of keeping the rest of the population under control if you're the only one who's allowed to be that strong.
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codeRR
dual hero
- Location
- Where am I?
Right...I wonder how they deal with (if it's ever happened) if someone accidently goes SS, I mean grief is the key emotional trigger and a need of course. What would be the course of action...punishing them for something that's (kinda) out of your control?
What would be the protocol?
*raises eyebrow* You had just said that it comes down to sentencing, with a wide-range of precedents. I was asking if such a thing would be considered/has ever come up in such a trial.
So I don't particularly get why you replied like you did.
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We were explicitly and repeatedly told that the vision was a potentiality, not a certainty, and that we shouldn't put a lot of weight on it.
Their reactions have largely been to the idea of having been discovered. While they probably don't relish the idea of a throw-down, they have lured the threat into their controlled, fortified, masqued domain surrounded by their people and are currently interrogating her. As far as ways to handle the situation which don't involve the immediate nuclear option, that's pretty much to be expected. Let's hope she's smart enough to see that as well and stay on edge while refusing to eat or drink anything they give her.
Either way, opening with an intention to break the seal is probably not the best approach. Frankly, assuming she doesn't tell them to call her and flee, there's no reason why Kakara shouldn't be the one demanding answers. By all rights she should be holding most of the cards here.
Again, there almost certainly a reason that they disappeared along with multiple irreplaceable strategic resources instead of just playing coy, and the leading possibility is preparation for a surprise usurpation of the incapacitated royal line.
-which I'm not even sure is something we shouldn't enthusiastically support, but does depend on the seal remaining intact at least long enough to settle and officialize everything.
It's because, "Shut up before I feed you your own feet, pleb."
Less cynically, Saiyans like to fight. A lot. Balkanized chaos tends to be counterproductive. Having a small number of absolutely incontestable authorities at the top to keep everybody else behaving themselves prevents that.
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- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Forbid them from training base strength past ten million (as a safety margin), forbid them from ever transforming again, and -- circumstances depending -- discreetly look into the necessity or possibility of giving them the fabled Third Lordship to avoid that thorny issue.
Your comment looked like you were asking, "So if we do this 'overthrow Dandeer' thing in a way that's blatantly illegal, would that be enough reason to forgive the Senzus making Super Saiyans?" Your response makes me think that that isn't what you're getting at, but that's what I read.
Oh, no. I mean that if we/the Senzu made a successful case that Dandeers actions/Regency was illegal in nature, could that and the fact that she was receiving support from Berra in her actions/Regency be considered mitigating factors, especially historically?
Since legally, it would have been in opposition of coup and an enemy Super Saiyan, (arguably) in defense of the Clans Scion.
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codeRR
dual hero
- Location
- Where am I?
i see, makes sense
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well, historically that would still be a crime, seeing as House Stauber had no members transform during their intervention. However, if you prove that the Regency was illegal, that would place your father far enough in the wrong that your grandmother would have legal grounds to step in, in her capacity as Matriarch, and overrule him. At that point the Scion is meant to step forward as well, so you'd have a firm voice in the legal process. You'd most likely need to get an oath out of the Senzus to accept the power level limits I outlined above, but they'd almost certainly escape without punishment given the context.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, and votes are now open, although I imagine the discussion will continue for some time before somebody makes a proposal.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I agree that we hold the advantage in negotiations and shouldn't give too much away, but you keep making this out to be a premeditated move to try and take us out, when it's very clearly not. Raditz decided to invite us to dinner on the spot, and had to argue with his sorcerer to do so - none of them want hostilities.
It would probably be best to (politely) request that they explain their reasoning for going rogue. We don't have to decide anything, or make any agreements beyond "I'm not going to tell Dad which mountain to suplex" before leaving - it's easy enough to say we're just trying to figure out how best to resolve this whole thing peacefully.
@codeRR
It's not relevant to anything here, but your signature should be Heroes, not Hero's. I wouldn't bother mentioning it (because correcting spelling on a forum if it's not a piece of literature comes across as being a jerk), except since it's in your signature it's going to come up again and again.
codeRR
dual hero
- Location
- Where am I?
huh...I made it a long time ago and never thought about it till now. Thanks
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
@PoptartProdigy, is there anything in the mechanics regarding detecting other peoples' intrigue? Does the intrigue skill have any effect on how likely we are to pick up another person's plots and/or lies, explicitly or just how the character comes across in the text? Or is that all on the players, and the skill's just for getting away with our own schemes?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Intrigue is how you scheme in general, both offensively and defensively. So yes, that's how you confirm plots. You the players -- and by extension Kakara the character -- can suspect people all you like, and even make contingencies, but finding something concrete is an Intrigue check. Executing those contingencies is a check as well. Any time you intersect somebody's scheme prompts a hidden Intrigue check -- but be aware that if I say nothing about any checks, you can assume that my answer to, "anything suspicious?" is, "you find nothing," not, "there's nothing there to be found."
All that being said, in this case you're checking against Deceit. I might combine the two at some point given how fine the distinction can be (it's why all forms of not-mendacious communication, as well as perception of the same, are lumped under, "Communication"), but for now Deceit refers to direct, person-to-person lying and the discernment of such, and Intrigue refers to the act of executing or countering a plot. Obviously, Deceit is involved in any act of Intrigue except the most hands-off of schemes, but for now I'm seeing them as meaningfully different enough to warrant separate skills.
Once again, bear in mind that successful checks on either of those skills denote you finding something more concrete than suspicion. You and Kakara both have working minds and can suspect all day long. But without a successful check, you don't know.
And before somebody asks: if you want to roll a Deceit check against Raditz at this point, the answer is, "you find nothing."
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
And with defensive deceit/intrigue checks confirmed, my leanings towards focusing on them next training plan just rocketed up to "we need this right now - no, we need this yesterday." Thanks for clarifying!
Is there any point to asking to roll a deceit check, or will you always secretly roll one when applicable?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I shall always roll one secretly, when applicable, and the text will narrate the results.
That's what Betarel is for.
"I have held my peace on that matter for several years, and feel it best to continue for at least a moment longer. In fact, I would suggest that since the very fact of this conversation already demonstrates my general goodwill it would be more fitting for you to be the one to begin the disclosures. What are your intentions and methods, and why is assisting you the right thing for me to do? Convince me."
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
That is an excellent idea, though it seems unlikely they'll leave us alone with him. Maybe we can play on our oddball disposition to not-insisting-but-not-really-taking-no-for-an-answer have a chat with him?
[X]Politely request that he explain why his House has gone into hiding these past few years. Many disagreed with the sealing of the Vegetas, but none of them went into what could be seen as a rebellion (try and work out if Raditz did so because he tried to power up, but don't say so). Explain that we are looking for a way to resolve this difficult situation peacefully, but don't imply that we're planning to unlawfully reverse the sealing. He's the Head of a rich and powerful house, he's likely better at politics than we are - at least the dishonest bits.
If we can get the sealing undone all above board having convinced Dad and without starting a civil war, that would be excellent.
Canon Omake: Remember the Power
- Location
- Australia
The placebo effect: If you give someone a pill that does nothing and tell them it makes their skin itch, their skin might start itching after taking the pill. The cause is incorrect, but their symptoms are real - they really do have itchy skin afterwards. In Dragon Ball, Man-Wolf was turned back into a human by hypnotising him into thinking Krillin's bald head was a full moon.
This is basically an idea/suggestion in the form of an omake. Took me a week on-and-off to get it done but here it is at last.
This is basically an idea/suggestion in the form of an omake. Took me a week on-and-off to get it done but here it is at last.
Remember the Power
Kakara stepped back and forth, rubbing her hands, anxious at what she was about to do. That first vision of hers when she consciously looked for one, the horrible one that Sensei said was a false vision, it was one that she didn't want to remember. The way she was, the things that were happening, it was worse than a nightmare. It would be a blessing to forget, but she can't. Or rather, she won't.
As much as it would be easier to try not to think about it, Kakara has to remember it. Sensei said it was a false vision, something that won't come true, and it's not something Kakara would let come true, but it doesn't change that it was a vision. It's not something she imagined, it's something her power showed her. The sound, the feelings, the smells...they were all what she would feel if that actually happened, she knew this.
And in that vision she experienced the second level - Super Saiyan 2. It was only for a moment but she felt its power running through her body and she remembered it. They say that Goku became more powerful after the God transformation ran out because his body remembered his power, and while Kakara never actually reached the second level, her mind did. She probably can't reach the Super Saiyan 2 just because of it, nor should she if she could, but if she ever needs to transform, remembering the feeling may help her do so.
So now, Kakara is going to sit down in this private, warded corner of hers away from everyone else and meditate. She's going to run the memory of the vision through her mind and she's going to do so every once in a while from now on so she can't forget. She tortured herself for a year just so she wouldn't lose a fight if someone grabbed her tail, she can do this...
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