Dragon Ball: After the End

[Andres]

To make it easier, just remember this: when in doubt, say nothing. It's not perfect, but unless something is about to happen, there's little that saying nothing can do to make a situation worse.

Click to shrink...

Something is about to happen so this doesn't apply, but there's still some wisdom to it. Making ourselves the centre of attention is risky and would damage our reputation badly unless we do everything right. A more low-key but still decisive effort would have similar odds of success and protect us from failure.

[] Go up to Celeran and inform him that he is to oppose this measure as strongly as possible.

 

[Aranfan]

Current Plan Aranfan:

[x] Go Super Saiyan
-[x] Tell them off for acting less mature than your schoolmates, decline to offer a position on the decision because you are not an ancestor cultist, inform them that all the facts should be known before they make a decision, and reveal House Peat's secret.
-[x] If they start acting unruly and disorderly again, flare power to reestablish dominance and insist the decision be made via proper procedure.


-

[X] Go up to Celeran and inform him that he is to oppose this measure as strongly as possible.

Click to shrink...

And why do we have the power to order the high priest around? My vote doesn't have us assume any sort of spiritual authority, it only exercises the temporal authority we already have as Scion. Yours is telling the High Priest what to do on a theological matter.

 

[Andres]

Further, there is a difference between yelling and the kind of chaotic eruption that is implicated by what Poptart wrote.

Click to shrink...

I saw a lot of exclamation points and even all-caps which implies that it was very much yelling.

-[x] Tell them off for acting less mature than your schoolmates, inform them that all the facts should be known before they make a decision, and reveal House Peat's secret.

Click to shrink...

This is a lot better, as it allows Poptart to interpret it in a non-yelling fashion. I still disagree on the point of legitimising the topic and making it seem like it's a viable option that they're allowed to take, however. The only way I can see this work is if this is a secret test to see if the Cult as a whole is loyal and should continue to be allowed to exist in its current form.

Yours is telling the High Priest what to do on a theological matter.

Click to shrink...

It's not just a theological matter, it's also a secular one. The proposal involves giving the High Priest authority closer to that of the Clan Lords - a dangerous idea. We want the Cult to adhere the Garenhuld model and keep it away from the Catholic Church model. We can and should tell the High Priest that he is not allowed to assume more power.

 

[Aranfan]

@anailater , @yert , @Nathaniel Wolff

As per the instructions of PoptartProgidy, I have modified my vote to be more in line with his desired vote structure. It is reproduced here if you want to switch to it.

Plan Aranfan:

[x] Go Super Saiyan
-[x] Tell them off for acting less mature than your schoolmates, decline to offer a position on the decision because you are not an ancestor cultist, inform them that all the facts should be known before they make a decision, and reveal House Peat's secret.
-[x] If they start acting unruly and disorderly again, flare power to reestablish dominance and insist the decision be made via proper procedure.

Click to shrink...

===

This is a lot better, as it allows Poptart to interpret it in a non-yelling fashion. I still disagree on the point of legitimising the topic and making it seem like it's a viable option that they're allowed to take, however. The only way I can see this work is if this is a secret test to see if the Cult as a whole is loyal and should continue to be allowed to exist in its current form.
...
It's not just a theological matter, it's also a secular one. The proposal involves giving the High Priest authority closer to that of the Clan Lords - a dangerous idea. We want the Cult to adhere the Garenhuld model and keep it away from the Catholic Church model. We can and should tell the High Priest that he is not allowed to assume more power.
...
...
If the constant, unignorable presence of a Super Saiyan isn't enough to keep them calm, there's a chance that flaring our power would do nothing either. What do we do if flaring our power fails?

Click to shrink...

I personally adhere to a social contract view, and feel that if they want to organize their faith a certain way that is their right. I do feel it is a legitimate topic, especially since Dandeer did eviscerate the Vegetan Judicial system. I think it is a bad idea, but I think it's the right of the cult collectively to make it's own decisions. Perhaps because I'm an american and believe in Separation of church and state? But I do feel that any organization has the right to make bylaws and internal regulations, and this is basically just an internal re-organization.

As to the Super Saiyan presence not keeping them calm? We can double our power level to reestablish dominance if we need to, even after going super saiyan. The oppressive weight of our sheer power can get even more oppressive if we need it to.

 

[Andres]

But I do feel that any organization has the right to make bylaws and internal regulations, and this is basically just an internal re-organization.

Click to shrink...

It isn't, though.

"If our Lords won't rule us right, we'll find somebody to do it for them!"

Click to shrink...

It's setting up someone who'll rule a fifth of all Saiyans apart from the Lords, or at the very least someone who many will see as an equivalent of a Lord.

"No better man that one who doesn't want the power! He's never reached for it!"

Click to shrink...

It's giving a man real power, not just internal power over a religion.

"I say we give the authority to the High Priest to rule on matters of the Faith!"

Click to shrink...

To rule on matters of the Faith is to decide what adheres to it and what goes against it. We don't want one man deciding what is and isn't going with the will of the gods, especially since the man takes orders from a rebellious House. This is everything we feared Celeran would try to push for.

"I am a simple guide. It is my place to organize large functions of the Faith, provide advice, and keep the scriptures, but I have no authority over any of you.
...
I understand your turmoil and desire to address this, but I -- but we -- cannot. Thus has it been, since the First Council. I am powerless here. We cannot address this. Thank you for your patience and for your understanding. But we must move on."

Click to shrink...

These words were practically - or more likely literally - designed to incite this discussion. "We're not allowed to address these serious problems of ours because I have no power." If that isn't an obvious veiled attempt to have people grant him power I don't know what is.

This needs to be stopped, not discussed.

 

[Aranfan]

This needs to be stopped, not discussed.

Click to shrink...

I am attempting to stop it, that's why I'm dropping the scandal. But this is something that involves a full fifth of the population, discussion is needed for something that will effect so many. To simply impose a solution from on high without discussion is tyranny.

 

[Andres]

I am attempting to stop it, that's why I'm dropping the scandal. But this is something that involves a full fifth of the population, discussion is needed for something that will effect so many.

Click to shrink...

Discussion means that giving the High Priest power is a legitimate option. Explaining why he can't be given power and answering questions as to why that is is a viable option, but discussion isn't.

 

[Aranfan]

Discussion means that giving the High Priest power is a legitimate option. Explaining why he can't be given power and answering questions as to why that is is a viable alternative, but discussion isn't.

Click to shrink...

Here is a vote for you that sums up your position the same way you summed up my position.

[] Go Super Saiyan
-[] Tell them that giving someone political power to rival the Lords is unacceptable and you will kill anyone who tries to push it.

Because make no mistake, by saying discussion is not acceptable you are imposing an outcome by force, that is by violence or the threat thereof.

 

[Andres]

Because make no mistake, by saying discussion is not acceptable you are imposing an outcome by force, that is by violence or the threat thereof.

Click to shrink...

It's imposing an outcome by law, no different than a law saying you can't make your own country within the borders of another. Laws are upheld by threat of violence and by threat of punishment, that's just something we'll have to accept.

As a side-note, killing isn't the only punishment available. (Heck, I remember Poptart complaining about us only thinking in those terms.) Knocking them out and sending them to jail to cool off or face prison (as to be decided by higher authorities) is totally something we can do.

 

[Lailoken]

It may be time to tell the truth about what happened before and during the sealing. It's just about the only credible bomb- certainly much more so than unsupported accusations against the high priest- we have that might blow apart everybody's plans.

The problem is that it sounds as if grandma has a plan, but that's a problem if we do anything.

 

[anailater]

[x] Go Super Saiyan
-[x] Tell them off for acting less mature than your schoolmates, decline to offer a position on the decision because you are not an ancestor cultist, inform them that all the facts should be known before they make a decision, and reveal House Peat's secret.
-[x] If they start acting unruly and disorderly again, flare power to reestablish dominance and insist the decision be made via proper procedure.​

 

[Lailoken]

Do we actually have anything, anything to support an accusation against the high priest? Anything at all? Have we even independently validated it? Have we even checked that the bit of information we got straight from the person he flat out told us to talk to isn't a poisoned trap he set up when he knew advance we were coming and arranged for followers to publicly question our position?

 

[Aranfan]

Do we actually have anything, anything to support an accusation against the high priest? Anything at all? Have we even independently validated it? Have we even checked that the bit of information we got straight from the person he flat out told us to talk to isn't a poisoned trap he set up when he knew advance we were coming and arranged for followers to publicly question our position?

Click to shrink...

OOC we know that Poptart said he hadn't counted on Fennella's inability to keep a secret.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

OOC we know that Poptart said he hadn't counted on Fennella's inability to keep a secret.

Click to shrink...

Don't rely on that. Quite apart from metagaming concerns, I am quite practiced at the Kyubey School of Lying.

 

[SMY]

[X] Watch and wait.

 

[Andres]

[] Go Super Saiyan
-[] Tell them off for acting less mature than your schoolmates. Calmly explain to them how giving the right to modify a religion and decide what adheres or fails to adhere to adhere to it to someone - or multiple someones - is a bad idea. It never ends well, even if it seems like a good idea.
-[] Also inform them that giving someone authority similar to that of a Lord, of making them in charge of ruling Saiyans in place of the Lords isn't allowed.
-[] Thank High Priest Celeran for refusing power and adhering to law.

This any good?

 

[Gore17]

Don't rely on that. Quite apart from metagaming concerns, I am quite practiced at the Kyubey School of Lying.

Click to shrink...

In which case, it would be best for us to not use it, and investigate it at a later date. If it's true, we have dirt. If it's not, or not as bad as it seems, we avoid a blunder.

[X] Impose order, so that things calm down, slow down, and give you time to think.
-[X] Use Instant Transmission to fetch a giant container of water of some kind, then dump the water over the crowd to cool them off. Scold them for their behaviour.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

In which case, it would be best for us to not use it, and investigate it at a later date. If it's true, we have dirt. If it's not, or not as bad as it seems, we avoid a blunder.

Click to shrink...

The Kyubey school of lying tells no falsehoods.

You simply fail to ask the right questions. :lol

More seriously, for those who aren't into PMMM -- I am capable of and willing to feed you all incomplete information or stuff that's true only from certain points of view. If I the QM say something outright, it's true, but only exactly as far as that particular statement applies.

 

[Lailoken]

OOC we know that Poptart said he hadn't counted on Fennella's inability to keep a secret.

Click to shrink...

That's fine OOC, but IC we need to look like more than just a nine-year-old shouting about hearing about two adults talking to each other without any substantiation or even specifics while the person we supposedly heard it from fervently denies it or the beloved high priest casually deflects it with the perfectly reasonable explanation he already gave us. That's assuming that he doesn't know his niece and favored successor well enough to deliberately lay a trap with her knowing or unknowing participation.

 

[Gore17]

The Kyubey school of lying tells no falsehoods.

You simply fail to ask the right questions. :lol

More seriously, for those who aren't into PMMM -- I am capable of and willing to feed you all incomplete information or stuff that's true only from certain points of view. If I the QM say something outright, it's true, but only exactly as far as that particular statement applies.

Click to shrink...

I did say "not as bad as it seems." I could have also put in "or they have an out" and stuff like that, but that would have made the sentence too unwieldy.

 

[Andres]

@PoptartProdigy

What roll bonuses do the skills provide? Is it just a +10 difference between levels?

If we used a cookie to increase Communication here, would it apply to all of Garenhuld II or just the next update?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy

What roll bonuses do the skills provide? Is it just a +10 difference between levels?

If we used a cookie to increase Communication here, would it apply to all of Garenhuld II or just the next update?

Click to shrink...

That's the case, where applicable. I'm considering a shift, but for now that's how it works. As usual, cookies apply only to a single roll.

 

[Bakkasama]

I think going super might be unwise. We don't want to give the impression we are forcing it because of our power, otherwise grandma would have done so.

Also, I apparently can't reason in small sentences.

Oppose the motion
- By IT to the stage and then raising your base to máximum. Use your standing next to Celeran to subtly imply he supports your position.
- Sincé apparently they can't be trusted to discuss things reasonably without a leader either, you felt the need to impose order. That said, you would like to say something.
- The sealing and Dandeer's actions and her punishment or lack of it are a secular matter. Giving the High priest theological authority would not help the issue since the faith does not have the authority to oppose or counteract the rulings of the Lords, and any action against the regent of Vegeta would do so. To say otherwise undermines the clan system and, as Priest Celeran said, those are not matters of the faith.
- Even if they were to choose to give the High Priest power to rule on matters of the faith, to do so before deciding the faith's oficial posture on things would be the same as giving the High Priest power to impose whatever opinión he would want. You agree with Celeran in that, what people believe, is something they decide. If they want to codify the faith, it should be into something they all can believe in rather than into what one of them thinks of them. Otherwise, you are putting an unjust burden on anyone they choose to make those rulings.
- Rulings which would be on disagreements regarding the scriptures, not, as some are proposing, to rule over the members of the faith. To do so would mean putting the one in charge at the same level as the Lords which, as far as you understand, goes against their tenets. Does Celeran feel he is at the same height as the lords? No? Then there is that.
-(Optional) Finally, someone who would have to speak for the faith would have to speak only for it. As such, it is only logical he would be reluctant since apparently he still has secret meetings to discuss matters with his brother.
-IT back to grandma so he doesn't borrow your authority.

So, Basically:
[] Oppose the motion.
-[] By IT to next to Celeran and raising your power level.
-[] If grandma asks telepatically, explain the whole thing with Peat to her. Be brief.
-[] The sealing and Dandeer and what to do with them are purview of the Lords. Being able to rule on matters of the faith implies settling disagreements regarding it, not ruling its members or setting legal policy.
-[] To say otherwise is to say the High Priest is on the same levels as the lords.
-[] The High Priest would be unable to settle disagreements regarding dogma because the purpose of this council was to decide on dogma. Choosing this now is to make the religión about the opinions of one instead of the many.
-[] (Optional) That someone being the head of Peat.
-[] Once that is done, go back to grandma

 

[Aranfan]

@PoptartProdigy

So I just read up on the front page. What are some of the techniques we don't even know are lost? Gotenk's donuts and kamikaze ghosts I assume are among them, since there is no gotenks style to utilize them, but what else?

 

[Andres]

As usual, cookies apply only to a single roll.

Click to shrink...

You can boost it, at most, for the length of an action -- specifically an event-chain action. This would be something like sneaking to eavesdrop on Dad and Lady Vegeta, which at the time was the beneficiary of two cookies. A single combat, at its best.

Click to shrink...

Eavesdropping on Dad and Dandeer required multiple rolls. Did the cookies only apply to one of them?