Went further into it. One of the objectives, arguably the main objective, is giving Yammar the info he needs to help us.
Dragon Ball: After the End
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Worth noting: Kakara has something like a +100 to communication checks here:
It's possible, that with a good plan, we could convince her of something. But it'll have to be a good plan, or we won't even get to the rolls before Kakara's shut down.
Numbers in brackets are what I've added, these are all the traits that seem relevant to the situation.
It's possible, that with a good plan, we could convince her of something. But it'll have to be a good plan, or we won't even get to the rolls before Kakara's shut down.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, right. No, that's still non-canon because Jaffur doesn't know IT, among other things. Still quite good! This one's bonus will go to breakouts.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Okay. Do they get to be major bonuses because, while Jossed, they weren't actively contradicted by the text before now?
- Location
- Italy
i think it's too risky, and it would be better to discuss it (and the possible seal to her own memories) only if she surrenders.
i agree with chryssalideater here. If you don't think it would work anyway, it would probably be better for you to go with the standard plan instead, or a variation of it.
That speech plan seems to me like it combines the worst of both plans, unlikely to convince her and likely to tip her off to our plans.
i mostly agree with the likely bonuses, but you probably have to add a -50 or so from "hated enemy". it's five ranks lower than neutral after all. So in the end it will be something like +40 + 30 (from communication)= +70 or so. plus cookie bonuses.
Still we have really high bonuses, so i think there is still a chance for it to work.
As i said before, it's not really more unlikely than the Genkidama+Spirit Saiyan that happened against Dazarel, and it would FIT with the theme of the quest, of violence not being the only possible solution.
And really, even if it fails I think Kakara should still try. It's good for her character development in my opinion, and it's something that she should try if she wants to be true to her ideals.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I agree on that. It thematically makes sense, and if it ends up screwing us over worse than future Kakara's advice? Well, that's good character development too.
EDIT: Also added in your suggestion about sealing away our ability to lie. That being said, I'm worried Dandeer will ask if we have any plans to escape.
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I'm not sure *how* it'd tip her off?
And the big point is to ensure Yammar can break out as well.
No, it's not good if it screws us over!
And the whole "sealing away our ability to lie" is moronic.
Anyway, as for why I don't think we're going to convince Dandeer to give up/redeem her:
Straight from Discord.
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- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah on second thought you're right on that one.
EDIT: I'm really starting to hate our inability to get Kakara's opinion on plans and how likely they are to succeed or fail. Or get basic information she should have access to. Pretty sure that's what screwed us with the security stuff.
EDIT2:
My apologies, I misread part of your plan. Still, it does little other than antagonize Dandeer and make her less likely to waste time gloating.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
God fucking dammit.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Perhaps it should have gone into an update, but I have said before that Jaffur does not know IT. Even in text, it's clear enough; he wouldn't have dived for Kakara to get away from Berra in, "Prelude," if he could IT on his own.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
At this point, if the speech option hinders the main plan in any way, I'm removing my write in. I figured the odds were low, but if we're actually locked out now then there is really no point to any of this.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I didn't suggest that in any expectation of redeeming her. Just in working with her in some regard. She's now aware of the limits of her spell. It's better that she not have to use that one.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
To be clear, folks: at this point, with how your relationship with Dandeer has developed, you're not winning an outright diplomatic victory, as in, "Dandeer voluntarily stands down and submits to judgment through sufficiently persuasive speech on your part." She hates you too much. I'm seeing what looks like surprise on this point. Did I misrepresent the level of hatred at play?
Regardless, that is a very specific kind of diplo victory which I am restricting. She's not immune to talking. She's just not going to be willing to surrender to you, any more than you would be willing to surrender to her.
Regardless, that is a very specific kind of diplo victory which I am restricting. She's not immune to talking. She's just not going to be willing to surrender to you, any more than you would be willing to surrender to her.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Right, that's what I was thinking was the case. I don't expect any kind of victory, but maybe... a reset. Would it possible, given time (and such a "reset" of conditions) for Kakara and Dandeer to repair relations with each other?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Lots of time, yes. At this point, in this moment...no. But eventually, given time and the opportunity to substitute more positive feelings for the current, seething, loathing, yes.
- Location
- Italy
i think it's a bit risky to show that we know how the chains work, though i probably overstated the risk. I do still believe that this specific plan has really no chance on working on the communication angle, and those who can react fast enough to our getting free are the super saiyans, not her, so it's not worth it in my opinion to try to unbalance her like this.
i remember that discussion. I think that the revelation that Jaron tried to suicide + we are in contact with her gods + pushing on the "nobody really loves her right now" give it a chance though. Things have changed since then.
Just to be clear, i give it 10 to 20% chance of success at most. Maybe even as low as 5%. Which was probably more or less the chance we had to control spirit saiyan, of which i don't actually recall the DC (i think it was 130?) but remember we were lucky enough to nat crit.
And even if we fail, i'd be fine with planting a tiny seed of doubt, so that redeeming her in the future (if we fail and come back later) has a higher chance of working. I'd be fine with killing her, but she can be usefull, and i still want to understand why she did the genocide thing at least, and if there is anything more (like a secret boss pulling her strings) behind her and it.
I think i would consider bringing our relationship from enemy "hated" to "avowed" or even "serious" a decent pay-off.
...Ok, i admit i underestimated how much hate there is between us.
fair enough. We can still plant that seed of doubt and maybe reduce the hate she has for us. Try to convince her to be less...evil to Jaffur at least. Or to treat Jaron well.
Kakara's multiform is still a secret. What happens if Dandeer catches one clone, seals it, assumes the job is done, and later the others come back to recombine with all their memories?
Also, I'm loving that people suddenly want to try reasoning with her when way back when it would have mattered nobody was interested in the sociopath's idea.
Also, I'm loving that people suddenly want to try reasoning with her when way back when it would have mattered nobody was interested in the sociopath's idea.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
I wonder if getting her to remove all her magic from our dad and have him decide what happens next would work? Too bad none of the other seers can communicate with one of the ancestors, that'd be a pretty good way to convince her.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Did...Did you just hold that grudge...for 2 years?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I was always interested in reasoning with her and still am.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Anyway, in that case:
[]Damage mitigation speech.
-[]"Well, looks like we've lost this battle."
-[]"For the record, if you're going to put yourself in this hole again, there's something you should know."
--[]Mention that Jaron was going to commit suicide while TP'ing Yammar to let him in on the plan.
---[]"Anyway, bye"
----[]Initiate future plan.
Short, succinct, reduces the risk of people we care about commiting suicide, gives us the chance to get Yammar in on the plan without attracting Dandeer's attention.
[]Damage mitigation speech.
-[]"Well, looks like we've lost this battle."
-[]"For the record, if you're going to put yourself in this hole again, there's something you should know."
--[]Mention that Jaron was going to commit suicide while TP'ing Yammar to let him in on the plan.
---[]"Anyway, bye"
----[]Initiate future plan.
Short, succinct, reduces the risk of people we care about commiting suicide, gives us the chance to get Yammar in on the plan without attracting Dandeer's attention.
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- Location
- Italy
i joined too late to push for that, really. My first post was during the genocide reveal.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
To be completely blunt, this is one of the sorest topics in the quest. I know people to have quit specifically because of the outcome of the, "how to train Jaron," vote. Treat the subject carefully, folks.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Duly noted. Also, could you add the above plan to the speech write in when the time comes?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Yeah, uh... sorry for spewing my salt everywhere just then. Deleting the post now.