Dragon Ball: After the End

[Simon_Jester]

The more I think about this, the more I'm starting to feel like trying to compose a talking vote is pointless.

1) To effectively persuade someone, you have to understand them. We don't know enough about what's going on inside Dandeer's head, because most of what we thought we'd learned about the character over the years is either definitely wrong, or potentially wrong. This is just as true for Kakara IC as it is for us OOC.

2) We have no realistic leverage over her, we have no idea just how high or even insurmountable the DCs on convincing her to do anything are, and as far as I can determine, stopping to try to convince her of anything MIGHT jeopardize our ability to even escape in any form. I don't know if it will or not, and I'm very afraid of it doing so, because...

3) Frankly, I'm tired of this shit. I'm tired of running around in circles trying to over-analyze things. I'm tired of trying to deduce what is and is not possible in an environment where there is little potential for exploration (because everything important is a secret we can't access) and where we can't realistically predict which actions will and will not pay off. I want OUT. And so...

It's like, you know what? If Dandeer destroys everything we've ever loved by being a horrible idiot who can't even keep a planet in mind-controlled stasis without everyone killing themselves, she just... does. Fuck it. We had our chance to actually save it all, and it's blown away by now.

I don't know if we can even hope to persuade her of even the most minimal things now. Maybe we can, maybe we can't, but I frankly expect the attempt to backfire at this point. I can see the vote dynamics shaping up, and I'm increasingly worried that we're just inherently screwed and doomed in anything we try on this front. Not because of QM fiat, but because any vote we pass is going to contain some kind of thing the QM will look at, then honestly parse as some kind of fatal time bomb. Or because it'll just be so hard that not even Kakara can convince her of anything.

If I turn out to be wrong about this I'm going to be very relieved, I just... don't have that confidence right now. I don't feel like we can make things better on this front, I feel like trying to salvage a less-bad defeat is impossible. We're screwed, she's gonna do what she's gonna do based on her own perverse and inscrutable notions of how the world should be. The effects will be what they be, and there's no point in trying to game it. At least until and unless we find some power or secret capable of just trivializing Dandeer's own power.

I don't want to angst about how to convince the mad sorceress with screwball motives of anything. I'm tired of thinking about her at all. I just want to get to a part of the game that isn't, on a fundamental level, about Dandeer. She's got this horrible reverse Midas touch whereby everything she interacts with turns to miserable shit. I don't want any of that anymore.

 

[SAGrognard]

Simon Jester said <snip>

Agreed. Dragon Balls is shonen. Hell, most mankaka cite DB as the founder shonen.
The plot is a morality play for young men and goes Fight Lose Train Win.
We are at the Lose go Train bit. Time to get on with it.
I never really believed the comments about SV expectation of autowin, I am not happy to see it.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

So, has anyone else come up with a Clever Plan? Right now we have talking to try and convince Dandeer to... be slightly less awful when she wins? We have the attempt to Sense the invasion fleet and then IT there with Yammar - the setup can be done while we're restrained, so it can really just be added onto any other plan at no real cost. We have possibly somehow telling Jaffur how he can try and break free himself, given his apparent conscious understanding that he's being controlled. Other than that, do we have anything else besides the default plan?

I disagree.

...Seriously, what is with people being so opposed to it?

Click to shrink...

I think being reduced to a 20th of our PL will have a big impact on what we can achieve, and threaten our safety. I also think that the additional restrictions placed upon Shades (Multiform, transformations, likely more we don't know about) are pretty crappy and should be avoided if at all possible. Especially since it will make Research in general more difficult - if we fail to achieve something, is it because it won't work? Or because it won't work as a Shade?

I'm also horrified by the possibility that this will lead to Karen becoming her own separate personality, like Jaron did. I seriously sympathise with those two, but I absolutely do not want us going through it too.

 

[Bommelom]

If we want to try to somehow convince her to act differently, I think we should try to focus on Jaffur and Jaron, and not mention the dead sorcerers (and probably not the attack on the imprisoned scouts either unless we're trying to convince her not to kill the aliens).

She's at the very least partially motivated by a desire to "fix" her family, and sealing Jaffur was probably her solution to the years of abuse he had suffered at the hands of Vegeta (because to Dandeer, mind control seems to be the solution). Therefore, any arguments for her to end the Sealing should be based around what's best for Jaffur. Since we just lost a fight, acting like we're offering her a second chance is really going to sound hollow, so our only bet of convincing her to do anything is that it'll be more likely to get her what she wants (a stable Jaffur with a good relationship with Dandeer).

So, if we're trying to convince her this is a bad idea, here's some possible arguments we could use:

-Everything about Jaffur being trapped in his own mind and Jaron being a separate person who hates Dandeer for reasons he cannot understand when he's awake, including the suicide attempt. We definitely should tell her about Jaron's suicide attempt either way, at least.

-The fact that there was no reason to seal Jaffur in the first place (here we can reveal we know she hurt herself), and that Jaffur's hate of Dandeer is a problem of her own making. If he wants to kill her now, that's the result of being imprisoned for five years, and even now he still hesitated before killing her.

-Inform her that Ancestor Gohan originally thought Jaffur could have become dangerous and needed to be dealt with, but that Gohan changed his mind, and so can she.

-Make sure she understands that no one here disagrees with the decision to seal away Vegeta, and that we're doing this for Jaffur's sake.

-While Jaffur might never stop hating her even if she unseals him, he's definitely not going to forgive her if she doesn't. The only way she can even try to genuinely repair their relationship is to let him go free of her own free will. It might never happen, but either way, it's better than having a puppet-son that only tolerates her because he cannot remember why he hates her and would kill her if he got the chance.

-If she tries to ask us why we're only trying to talk with her now that we've lost, explain that this isn't about you or her, but about Jaffur. We weren't sure how she'd react if we told her the truth about Jaffur's situation, and we weren't going to risk her inflicting further suffering on Jaffur and Jaron by trying to "fix" the situation by sealing something else.

Trying to go for the Jaffur angle is really the only way I see of convincing her to do anything.

Also convincing her that sealing Yammar is better than killing him.

Click to shrink...

I'm not quite sure how we can convince her of this. Only way I can think of is convincing them all that we've just Seen some sort of vague threat that's coming at some point, but while the puppets have crap Deceit I have no idea how good Dandeer is at seeing through lies.

I'm not sure if we can convince her to spare the scouts either.

In both cases, we'd probably have to convince her that killing Yammar/the scouts are going to have negative effects on her "perfect world", and I'm not sure if that's possible.

Of course, I don't think talking to her is the best option, and either just following Future Kakara's or possibly Gore's plan would probably be better. We really should just eat this loss.

@PoptartProdigy, would trying to give suble hints about how to break Dandeer's spell while arguing with her (Gore's plan) be Deceit, Communications or both?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Dandeer has been lying to everyone on a massive level. Not just about the mass murder she committed, but about her son, her actions, and her basic personality. Granted she has a Win Button she can use to crudely paper over the cracks with magic if she gets it wrong, but she's been tricking, fooling, and lying to people too consistently for that to be ALL she has.

If Dandeer has Elite talents they are probably either in Sorcery (giving her special abilities no other sorcerer has), or in, you guessed it, Deceit.

Aside from begging her to be a humane Queen Bitch of Garenhuld for the sake of her son and people who never opposed her, I don't think we're going to be able to accomplish much here. I don't even know if we can accomplish that.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy, this makes me upset. I'm investing a cookie into talking Dandeer down because you said it was possible to do so, just that it was unlikely. Now you're saying that it's outright impossible. Explain fully ALL that you can about how an attempt at diplomacy may go. Do not leave things out just because the right questions weren't asked or because they weren't asked in the exact right way. This is incredibly annoying.

Click to shrink...

And you are becoming rude.

It's possible to talk her into things, but I don't feel like it's a huge revelation that she won't want to surrender to your judgement. Furthermore, I don't actually recall telling you that it was possible at any point. As best as I can tell, I didn't answer you when you asked, because I was preoccupied with other things.

If you want to talk to Dandeer, you can accomplish things, but she's hardly going to surrender, now, to you.

What kind of diplo victories are possible here exactly? Can we 'break' her?

Click to shrink...

That is certainly a target.

If we want to try to somehow convince her to act differently, I think we should try to focus on Jaffur and Jaron, and not mention the dead sorcerers (and probably not the attack on the imprisoned scouts either unless we're trying to convince her not to kill the aliens).

She's at the very least partially motivated by a desire to "fix" her family, and sealing Jaffur was probably her solution to the years of abuse he had suffered at the hands of Vegeta (because to Dandeer, mind control seems to be the solution). Therefore, any arguments for her to end the Sealing should be based around what's best for Jaffur. Since we just lost a fight, acting like we're offering her a second chance is really going to sound hollow, so our only bet of convincing her to do anything is that it'll be more likely to get her what she wants (a stable Jaffur with a good relationship with Dandeer).

So, if we're trying to convince her this is a bad idea, here's some possible arguments we could use:

-Everything about Jaffur being trapped in his own mind and Jaron being a separate person who hates Dandeer for reasons he cannot understand when he's awake, including the suicide attempt. We definitely should tell her about Jaron's suicide attempt either way, at least.

-The fact that there was no reason to seal Jaffur in the first place (here we can reveal we know she hurt herself), and that Jaffur's hate of Dandeer is a problem of her own making. If he wants to kill her now, that's the result of being imprisoned for five years, and even now he still hesitated before killing her.

-Inform her that Ancestor Gohan originally thought Jaffur could have become dangerous and needed to be dealt with, but that Gohan changed his mind, and so can she.

-Make sure she understands that no one here disagrees with the decision to seal away Vegeta, and that we're doing this for Jaffur's sake.

-While Jaffur might never stop hating her even if she unseals him, he's definitely not going to forgive her if she doesn't. The only way she can even try to genuinely repair their relationship is to let him go free of her own free will. It might never happen, but either way, it's better than having a puppet-son that only tolerates her because he cannot remember why he hates her and would kill her if he got the chance.

-If she tries to ask us why we're only trying to talk with her now that we've lost, explain that this isn't about you or her, but about Jaffur. We weren't sure how she'd react if we told her the truth about Jaffur's situation, and we weren't going to risk her inflicting further suffering on Jaffur and Jaron by trying to "fix" the situation by sealing something else.

Trying to go for the Jaffur angle is really the only way I see of convincing her to do anything.


I'm not quite sure how we can convince her of this. Only way I can think of is convincing them all that we've just Seen some sort of vague threat that's coming at some point, but while the puppets have crap Deceit I have no idea how good Dandeer is at seeing through lies.

I'm not sure if we can convince her to spare the scouts either.

In both cases, we'd probably have to convince her that killing Yammar/the scouts are going to have negative effects on her "perfect world", and I'm not sure if that's possible.

Of course, I don't think talking to her is the best option, and either just following Future Kakara's or possibly Gore's plan would probably be better. We really should just eat this loss.

@PoptartProdigy, would trying to give suble hints about how to break Dandeer's spell while arguing with her (Gore's plan) be Deceit, Communications or both?

Click to shrink...

That specific part of it would be Deceit.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Simon Jester said <snip>

Agreed. Dragon Balls is shonen. Hell, most mankaka cite DB as the founder shonen.
The plot is a morality play for young men and goes Fight Lose Train Win.
We are at the Lose go Train bit. Time to get on with it.
I never really believed the comments about SV expectation of autowin, I am not happy to see it.

Click to shrink...

The fundamental problem here is that we appear to be Losing in a way that materially impedes our ability to Train.

If we end up trapped as a shade, we can't readily recruit allies because we can't interact with them in the physical world, and we can't train some of our most important skills (e.g. Perfect Multiform). We don't know enough about operating or functioning as a shade to be very confident about this. Indeed, the only reason I even HOPE it'll work out for us is Future!Kakara explicitly telling us that we can get away with it. Presumably she knows something we don't about:

1) Bypassing power restrictions on a shade
2) Obtaining a physical body of some kind
3) Otherwise getting "if you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" benefits from being a shade.

I mean, without that assurance, I'd honestly say that being Sealed inside Karen's head as Kakara would be the better answer here, in hopes of lockpicking whatever magic limits us through use of the Sight... Iiiif it weren't for the fact that Dandeer almost certainly knows we have the Sight and will be explicitly planning to seal that off, and given her POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT-tier ability to do things, would likely succeed in doing so.

 

[Bommelom]

I think being reduced to a 20th of our PL will have a big impact on what we can achieve, and threaten our safety. I also think that the additional restrictions placed upon Shades (Multiform, transformations, likely more we don't know about) are pretty crappy and should be avoided if at all possible. Especially since it will make Research in general more difficult - if we fail to achieve something, is it because it won't work? Or because it won't work as a Shade?

Click to shrink...

I'd argue that being a Shade is actually safer than being at full power.

Firstly, we're not detectable to anyone save Seers (who are likely very uncommon outside Garenhuld) and some Sorcerers. Yeah, we're only at a 20th of our power level, but that won't matter if nobody can threaten us because they don't know we're there.

Secondly, I wouldn't want to use our full power level in the wider galaxy anyways. If we look at Tamar, 300 million (full power Masque)should be enough power that the whole galaxy will take notice of us suddenly appearing out of nowhere. In order not to arouse suspicion, we'd have to

I agree that it possibly limits certain research, but really, I don't think we need to research a lot of Ki Techniques out there.

What we need to do right now is to master Jaffur's ki trick and Tabe's ki trick, and then get an at least passable level in a combat style + all involved techniques (probably still Tenshinhan style if we can learn to grow four arms as a Shade). Only other Ki-involved research I'd even try going for would be endurance training with Golden Oozaru, and that's the only thing that being a Shade might affect.

Other than that, we wouldn't really need any Ki Research that being a shade could interfere with. We'd probably just need to learn a method to break the Seal on our own body, as well as potentially training our Seer abilities.

In fact, I think being a Shade offers massive potential in regards to potentially surprise-attacking Dandeer when we return, especially since she'll have no idea it's even a thing that can happen.

Firstly, if we find a way to quickly get into our body and break the seal, go Super Saiyan and then use Instant Transmission to knock out Dandeer + all the Super Saiyans before they even know we're there (even better if we go back to our body when it's near Berra so we can take him out immediately).

Secondly, we can knock out Dandeer as a Shade immediately after IT-ing to her, and then leisurely taking out time knocking out all the sealed Super Saiyan without them even knowing we're here.

Taking out everyone quickly, however, would rely on Dandeer not realizing that Kakara is still a threat that can come back to defeat her. A Kakara that physically escapes would mean that Dandeer actually sets up precautions, possibly including having the Seers figure out when we're going to attack.

 

[Bommelom]

The fundamental problem here is that we appear to be Losing in a way that materially impedes our ability to Train.

If we end up trapped as a shade, we can't readily recruit allies because we can't interact with them in the physical world, and we can't train some of our most important skills (e.g. Perfect Multiform). We don't know enough about operating or functioning as a shade to be very confident about this. Indeed, the only reason I even HOPE it'll work out for us is Future!Kakara explicitly telling us that we can get away with it. Presumably she knows something we don't about:

1) Bypassing power restrictions on a shade
2) Obtaining a physical body of some kind
3) Otherwise getting "if you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" benefits from being a shade.

I mean, without that assurance, I'd honestly say that being Sealed inside Karen's head as Kakara would be the better answer here, in hopes of lockpicking whatever magic limits us through use of the Sight... Iiiif it weren't for the fact that Dandeer almost certainly knows we have the Sight and will be explicitly planning to seal that off, and given her POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT-tier ability to do things, would likely succeed in doing so.

Click to shrink...

We can't get allies by physically interacting with them, but we can talk to people by going inside their heads. In addition, what we really want is a friendly Sorcerer who can tell us how to break the seal and regain our body, and such a person would likely be able to see us as a Shade.

Secondly, damn hell we can train. Sure, we can't improve our power level, but our enemies can't do that either.

What we can do is training Jaffur's and Tabe's ki tricks to Exceptional, which should be quite easy due to the fact that we're a ki prodigy, and which would allow us to hit massively above our power level even if our combat skills are kinda meh (compared to Garenhuld standards, of course).

Additionally, we can start learning the Four-Witches technique and get our Tenshinhan style up to a decent levels, which would further improve our combat ability.

Lastly, we can improve our Seer ability, which would both be useful in combat due to combat precognition, as well as allow us to use Future Sight to check if going back to Garenhuld and beating Dandeer is a thing we can do yet. Additionally, our Mind Projection will likely get to astronomical levels.

So in short, we have plenty of ways to train and get stronger.

 

[Bakkasama]

Also, if we want to defeat people by fighting them (why else the focus on perfect multiform?) then we know we can train genki dama and jaffur's trick as a shade since we did before. Even without asking people to lend us their energy the genki dama should give us enough power to fight back more effectively than perfect multiform.

And if we want a partner to train in styles with... we could always go to the afterlife and train with Endivan.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Also, if we want to defeat people by fighting them (why else the focus on perfect multiform?) then we know we can train genki dama and jaffur's trick as a shade since we did before. Even without asking people to lend us their energy the genki dama should give us enough power to fight back more effectively than perfect multiform.

Click to shrink...

Aside from the fact it would literally quadruple our combat effectiveness, we've literally spent this entire fight wishing we could be doing 2 things at once.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Note @Bakkasama 's exact wording. Not "why the focus on Perfect Multiform," but "why ELSE the focus on Perfect Multiform?"

Bakkasama is arguing that we want Perfect Multiform in order to defeat people by fighting them.

So, violent agreement I guess?

 

[chryssalideater]

Also worth saying; you know what we can find in space?

Dragonballs.

 

[Bommelom]

Also worth saying; you know what we can find in space?

Dragonballs.

Click to shrink...

Assuming the Enemy didn't blow up Namek, that is.

If Namek isn't blown up, though, it might also be a good place to find a friendly Sorcerer.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Alright, this is taking a lot of time. I will open the vote at 9:00 p.m., GMT. Have a final speech vote for me to feature in the unlock by then, please.

 

[Gore17]

The fundamental problem here is that we appear to be Losing in a way that materially impedes our ability to Train.

If we end up trapped as a shade, we can't readily recruit allies because we can't interact with them in the physical world, and we can't train some of our most important skills (e.g. Perfect Multiform). We don't know enough about operating or functioning as a shade to be very confident about this. Indeed, the only reason I even HOPE it'll work out for us is Future!Kakara explicitly telling us that we can get away with it. Presumably she knows something we don't about:

1) Bypassing power restrictions on a shade
2) Obtaining a physical body of some kind
3) Otherwise getting "if you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" benefits from being a shade.

I mean, without that assurance, I'd honestly say that being Sealed inside Karen's head as Kakara would be the better answer here, in hopes of lockpicking whatever magic limits us through use of the Sight... Iiiif it weren't for the fact that Dandeer almost certainly knows we have the Sight and will be explicitly planning to seal that off, and given her POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT-tier ability to do things, would likely succeed in doing so.

Click to shrink...

You forget that one of the abilities of the Sight, when Astral Projected, is the ability to instantly transport to a relevant/desired/needed location.

 

[thamuzz]

[] Write In: Bully the monstrous victim
- Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-- Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can
ex: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-- [] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

Essentially its just the altered plan with a psychological attack thrown in for good measure.
@PoptartProdigy would that attack be Communication of Deceit?

 

[chryssalideater]

Way I currently see it, only thing really worth mentioning is the Jaron suicide incident, and possibly asking for her to try to make sure Dad hasn't lost his mind. Other than that, unless anyone can think of a way to a) get Dandeer to spare Yammar, or b) get Yammar out of here, I think we're about done here.

EDIT: Yeah revealing the suicide thing while secretly getting ready to free Yammar as well seems like the safest bet here.

 

[chryssalideater]

@PoptartProdigy speech write in:

Anyway, in that case:

[]Damage mitigation speech.
-[]"Well, looks like we've lost this battle."
-[]"For the record, if you're going to put yourself in this hole again, there's something you should know."
--[]Mention that Jaron was going to commit suicide while TP'ing Yammar to let him in on the plan.
---[]"Anyway, bye"
----[]Initiate future plan.

Click to shrink...

 

[PoptartProdigy]

[] Write In: Bully the monstrous victim
- Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-- Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can
ex: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-- [] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

Essentially its just the altered plan with a psychological attack thrown in for good measure.
@PoptartProdigy would that attack be Communication of Deceit?

Click to shrink...

Communication.

 

[Simon_Jester]

You forget that one of the abilities of the Sight, when Astral Projected, is the ability to instantly transport to a relevant/desired/needed location.

Click to shrink...

Yes, and one of the abilities of the Dandeer, when in Evil Witch Mode, is the ability to utterly block off and subtract features, abilities, or traits from things.

It's our irresistible mobility against her immovable Seal, and I'm not sure I'd want to stake everything on us winning that contest.

 

[KaintukeeBob]

Yes, and one of the abilities of the Dandeer, when in Evil Witch Mode, is the ability to utterly block off and subtract features, abilities, or traits from things.

It's our irresistible mobility against her immovable Seal, and I'm not sure I'd want to stake everything on us winning that contest.

Click to shrink...

Ah, but when the irresistible meets the immovable, the irresistible is simply redirected.

In other words, sometimes the only winning move is to spring the trap and make them suffer for it. Because there's one thing you never put into a trap, not if you want to continue to live your life as you have. Kakara.

Y'know, or the Doctor.

. . . When we become a shade, we should seek out the blue phone box. It can only end well (or with screaming and fire, which is just a different version of 'well' for DBZ).

 

[Simon_Jester]

To be fair, Kakara meeting the Doctor would make a great crossover.

That said, we probably should try to avoid Dandeer's traps (seals) as long and as extensively as we can. Since getting unbreakably sealed in a metaphysical bottle by her until Karen dies of old age is a conceivable outcome here.

It's like, when roleplaying King Piccolo, watch out for rice cookers. Same logic.

 

[Bommelom]

Alright, this is taking a lot of time. I will open the vote at 9:00 p.m., GMT. Have a final speech vote for me to feature in the unlock by then, please.

Click to shrink...

[ ] Rebuttal Monologue
-[ ] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[ ] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[ ] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[ ] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[ ] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
-[ ] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[ ] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[ ] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[ ] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[ ] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.

Click to shrink...

Well, here's Gore's current plan, since I don't think he tagged you when posting it (not sure whether you get notified of quoted tags).

..And while I don't think speaking to her is going to accomplish much, here's a potential speech focusing on Jaffur, with Kakara trying to escape after she's done talking and telling Yammar how to do so while doing it (I think trying to subtly inform him is too risky). Might as well try to telepathy Yammar about how to break the chains as well, if Dandeer hasn't prevented us from doing that, which she might have.

..Aaand I just realized it probably got a bit too long. Gah.

[] Make it about Jaffur
-[] Explain to Dandeer that she's making a mistake, and that she has no idea how the Sealing has been influencing Jaffur and Jaron. Jaffur has been trapped in his own mind for five years, while Jaron hates her for reasons he cannot understand, is suicidal and spends every night screaming.
-[] Explain that while sealing Vegeta was necessary, you know that sealing Jaron wasn't. You know who inflicted those wounds on Dandeer. If she had chosen to just seal away Vegeta, everyone here, save possibly Yammar, would have been on her side, and that it was her actions that alienated Jaffur.
-[] If she doesn't believe any of this, she can ask Jaffur.
-[] Reveal that you've been talking to Ancestor Gohan, and that while he originally thought that Jaffur was dangerous and had to be dealt with, Gohan changed his mind, and so can Dandeer. If she doesn't believe you, you can show her the memories.
-[] Sealing Jaffur or anyone else will not change any of this, and will not give her what she wants. While you don't know if Jaffur would ever forgive her if she voluntarily unseals him, you know what it will never happens if she doesn't. Her magic can't add forgiveness, it can merely substract knowledge of why he hates her.
-[] If Dandeer interrupts, make sure to counter her arguments, and use the points in whatever way makes most sense and not necessarily in order.
-[] Additionally while Dandeer is talking, attempt to establish telepathic communitions with Yammar and tell him how to break the shackles.
--[] If your ability to use telepathy is Sealed, but you somehow convince Dandeer to let you show her the memory of Gohan, try to inform Yammar about how to break the shackles immediately after you give her the memory.
-[] If she asks why we're only talking to her now that we've lost, explain that this isn't about you or her but about Jaffur, and that you'll help him whether that means overthrowing Dandeer by force or trying to convince her to do the right thing and not try to "fix" it with magic.
-[] If/when Dandeer tries to shut us up (in a way that can actually hinder us, such as magic, not weak punches), implement Future Kakara's plan.
--[] If we're almost done talking and it doesn't seem to have an effect, do the same.
--[] If you haven't been able to establish telepathy with Yammar, concisely explain how to break the chains the moment you choose to do so (I think Kakara with exceptional communications can do this better than I can).
--[] If you have been able to establish telepathy, coordinate the escape with Yammar.

Still think just going for Future Kakara's plan is safer, though, especially since my speech vote seems to be far too long. Really, now that I see it complete I kinda regret making it.

Probably we should just try to telepathy Yammar, and if we can't do that, just try to explain how to escape the shackles as we do so?

 

[Simon_Jester]

@Bommelom, I like it, let's try to trim it down a bit?

If Poptart actually acts on all those points it'd be likely to turn into a nine thousand word update.