Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That doesn't allow for any flexibility in the probabilities, though. So it doesn't enable really low-odds stuff like our Spirit Saiyan shenanigans.
Dragon Ball: After the End
That doesn't allow for any flexibility in the probabilities, though. So it doesn't enable really low-odds stuff like our Spirit Saiyan shenanigans.
Non-Canon Omake: A Thousand Thousand Mirrors
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Omake: A Thousand Thousand Mirrors
The dice did not look favorably on you, this time. You are heavily injured, but have three beans left. Your brief fight with Yanmar has made it abundantly clear how outclassed you are.
But the multiverse is vast beyond all telling, an infinite kaleidoscope of worlds, that extends even beyond even the prodigious knowledge of the Kaioshin of Time. Somewhere, at the tail end of a far drawn out bell curve, there exists another world much like this one…
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
{X} Lie
-{X} IT next to dandeer to force him to talk, then lie and don't let up
--{X} This wasn't a fight
--{X} You are on Dandeers side
--{X} Blame, Blame, blame
-{X} Whatever you do, do not engage Yammar in a fight.
-{X} Keep a straight face, keep up the act
-{X} IT next to dandeer to force him to talk, then lie and don't let up
--{X} This wasn't a fight
--{X} You are on Dandeers side
--{X} Blame, Blame, blame
-{X} Whatever you do, do not engage Yammar in a fight.
-{X} Keep a straight face, keep up the act
You take a deep, labored breath, and slowly extract a Senzu from your pouch. Okay, two left. You crunch down on it and feel it healing you. You can't go another round like that. You can't convince him to stand down, and who knows what he;ll do to your allies if you leave to go charge spirit bomb. That leaves only one option, even if it's completely insane.
Then you raise your fingers to your forehead, and IT to Dandeer, reaching out to-
incoming
It's not even ki sense that prompts you to duck; it's a flash of bone-deep awareness of peril that reminds you of your premonition and sends you diving for the ground. Then your ki senses warn you of Yammar's ki pulsing and flaring in a fired blast in a single instant, and a thin beam tears through the space overhead.
"Good reflexes," he remarks, completely untroubled. "Let's put them to the test." He fires again.
You hurl yourself to the side, wide-eyed. That almost hit me, that was way too close. I knew he was too strong, but!
Yammar darts forward towards you, trying to close, and you leap back, wide-eyed. "What are you doing?"
He gives you a confused look. "What are you talking about?"
tsew
You hurriedly block his strike and kick out to force him back, drifting up into the air and drawing back your hands. "Why did you attack me like that? That could have seriously hurt me!"
"This is a fight, Kakara," Yammar replies, sounding mildly puzzled. "If you weren't prepared to fight, you should never have engaged in the first place."
Well, here goes nothing. "This wasn't supposed to be a fight! Who would we have been fighting? You just went crazy out of the blue and attacked grandma!"
Deception, Kakara vs Yammar
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) +10 (Technical truth) = 91+55=146
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 130 (Very Heavy Evidence) =3+140 = 143
146 vs. 143, bare pass
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) +10 (Technical truth) = 91+55=146
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 130 (Very Heavy Evidence) =3+140 = 143
146 vs. 143, bare pass
Yammar stops, startled, and stares at you. Please buy it, please buy it… "But," he starts, then stops. He composes himself, then asks, "If that's the case, then what are Berra and my son doing here, unconscious? Why is Jaffur here? What was Dandeer doing in a fight between royals?"
You almost give up then, but then it hits you. He's asking, not dismissing your obvious falsehood. Did he…. actually buy it?
"Someone let Vegeta out of his seal, and he went after Jaron. I was training with him earlier this morning, but I don't have the experience to take him on, not and defend someone else. We came here to get help from dad."
Yammar stares at you, and you look back at him as guilelessly as you can before continuing.
"It went bad, quickly. Dad fight well, but he isn't equipped to fight against a hostage. He had to hold back for fear of hitting Dandeer. He tried to throw a powerball, but Dad knew the golden great ape form and easily cut off his tail, so he faked going down, blasted him in the chest, and then knocked out Dad while he was distracted."
Deception, Kakara vs Yammar
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) +30 (Cookie) = 98+65=163
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 130 (Very Heavy Evidence) =7+140 = 147
163 vs 147, pass
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) +30 (Cookie) = 98+65=163
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 130 (Very Heavy Evidence) =7+140 = 147
163 vs 147, pass
"That still doesn't explain Dandeer," the butcher says, gesturing to her position at your feet. "If Vegeta had her as a hostage, why were you the one standing by her body? You're her worst enemy!"
"The attack that knocked her out was the one that hit my; a blast that strong was enough to knock Dandeer out without ever hitting her." Taking a gamble, you push a bit further. "Besides, I'm not her enemy, Yammar. What possible reason would I have to dislike Dandeer?"
Deception, Kakara vs Yammar
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) = 35 + 45=80
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) - 30 (Can't imagine hating Dandeer) =75-20=55
80 vs 55, major success
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) = 35 + 45=80
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) - 30 (Can't imagine hating Dandeer) =75-20=55
80 vs 55, major success
Yammar almost looks lost now, like his very understanding of reality was suddenly and fundamentally confused. He looks at you almost pleadingly, and quite frankly it unnerves you. You'd never even imagined seeing Yammar like this before, and it makes you uncomfortable.
"What… What is going on? I was fighting Jaffur, with my son…"
"That wasn't Jaffur," you reply, a little more confident now. "That was Vegeta. After you beat down grandma, you turned on the next closest fighter and fought against Vegeta. You beat him, and then hit Jaron." You emphasize the last word, trying to bring attention away from the fact that Jaffur should have been sealed, directing his focus away from the threads that would unrival your web of lies.
Deception, Kakara vs Yammar
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) +30 (Cookie) = 81 + 65=146
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 130 (Very Heavy Evidence) =11+140 = 151
146 vs 151, bare failure
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you) +30 (Cookie) = 81 + 65=146
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 130 (Very Heavy Evidence) =11+140 = 151
146 vs 151, bare failure
"Don't try to lie to me, Kakara," He shouts, suddenly seeming a bit more sure of himself. "I know my own grandson, and it was definitely Jaffur that I felt - and fought. You're good, scion, but not good enough."
Panic grips you, as he brushes aside your protest and settles into a combat stance. You pushed to far, too fast-
"Better… than you."
Your and Yammar's head snap over, to see Jaron pulling himself to his feet.
He looks exhausted. Whatever injuries Jaffur has suffered, it looks like they had at least some effect on Jaron. He weaves on his feet, and his breath comes harshly. He barely seems capable of talking, but he stands nonetheless.
[Failure bypassed]
The patriarch, no, Yammar, turns once more, bewildered. "I… but… the traitors..."
"I don't know what happened to you, Yammar, but you need to calm down. You attacked grandma, attacked Jaron, attacked the saiyans in the hall, and almost got me as well!" You punctuate each statement with a gesture - to Apra, to his grandson, to the Senzus lying on the ground where he left them defeated.
Deception, Kakara vs Yammar
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you)= 76 + 45=121
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 90 (Recognizes Senzus) -30 (Doubting his perceptions) =41+70= 111
121 vs 111, pass
K: 1d100 + 30 (Competent Deceit) + 15 (Yammar trusts you)= 76 + 45=121
Y: 1d100 + 40 (Talented Deceit) - 30 (Enthralled) + 90 (Recognizes Senzus) -30 (Doubting his perceptions) =41+70= 111
121 vs 111, pass
Yammar, miraculously, listens to your advice, and detransformes, although his power level remains high. "Ancestors, what have I done?"
You're glad he's facing towards you, since it means he can't see Jaron's absolutely baffled expression. Still, you keep control of your expression; there's no need to tempt fate. "It's not too late, Yammar. You didn't kill anyone, and things can be fixed. Let's get some senzu beans, and go get the others fixed up. He nods, turning to face them, and then you phase in behind him and knock him unconscious.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You have won. The plan was incredibly risky, but with some help of some of the most insane die rolls in the history of the quest you managed to pull it off. As The Gold and The Spirit Saiyan, you have an unquestionable combat reputation, but if exile society learns of it this victory would still remain at the same incredible pinnacle achieved by Endivan. You have gained Elite Deception. What do you do now?
{} Senzu Bean
-{}Apra
-{}Berra
-{}Dandelor
-{}Jaron
-{}Yammar
-{}Senzu clan members
--{}How many
{}Wrap Up. Dandeer still has some people compromised, and you should get them out of the way before they can do any damage
-{}Sensei
-{}Guards
{}Write in
MANUAL MORATORIUM; ANYBODY WHO TAGS ME WITH WRITE-IN IDEAS WHEN I CALL FOR THEM GETS THEM FEATURED IN THE UNLOCK POST. APPROVAL VOTING, AS EVER.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Obviously, this would be hilariously unlikely; I suspect the rolls would be even harder than here, for something this blatant, and even this was some pretty wild "luck."
- Location
- Italy
this is amazing! 
i nearly feel bad for this Yammar!
something like this might actually have somewhat worked. Of course we didn't know the details of how the mind control worked before, so we would have never though to try it.
i nearly feel bad for this Yammar!something like this might actually have somewhat worked. Of course we didn't know the details of how the mind control worked before, so we would have never though to try it.
VicSage
Not Crazy
- Location
- Czechoslovakia
It would at the very least have been an interesting outcome.
VicSage
Not Crazy
- Location
- Czechoslovakia
Technically yes, but it's also significantly easier to raise a child if you have another parent. Even moreso considering that she'd be acting as head of state, and not even perfect multiform would give us the ability to do all our duties and raise a child solo.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Well, if the Scion is married to the parent of the child, it erases any risks of a counter-claim on which House they belong to. I mean, there are clearly provisions for Scions for whom opposite-sex relationships are not preferred one way or another, but by default it makes sense as if nothing else a legal means to ensure security of the legal claim.
- Location
- canada
hey I just got caught up to everything in story (didn't do omakes or the current thread though.) and I gotta say I REALLY don't want to read a quest where we are separated from the physical world.... But its not the end all be all. Also ya sometimes the dice fk up.
In any case @PoptartProdigy for the coming system why not take a third path forward? instead of the sheer level of random and number of things we have atm or a purely static system like the advantages alone why not make everything worth a certain number of advantages and only roll a MUCH smaller die or dice, Like atm you are rolling D100's right? well there is a reason why D20's are a gold standard for single player RP games for randomness. So maybe treat the advantages as a +1 per advantage and use them as buffs on 1d20 rolls or 3d6 rolls? Or heck even 1d6 rolls!
That way there will be a LOT less randomness involved in everything while still offering enough for luck, and other such things to play a factor. I personally favor that kind of system for when fights or events are most often for a small number of very powerful individuals rather than large armies. Maybe change the vote so that is offered as a third option?
EDIT: Also that aside, what are our chances of going super saiyan 2 if we go hail mary in the coming fight? Like if we actually choose to embrace the need to power up and ignore the consequences of breaking the masquerade?
In any case @PoptartProdigy for the coming system why not take a third path forward? instead of the sheer level of random and number of things we have atm or a purely static system like the advantages alone why not make everything worth a certain number of advantages and only roll a MUCH smaller die or dice, Like atm you are rolling D100's right? well there is a reason why D20's are a gold standard for single player RP games for randomness. So maybe treat the advantages as a +1 per advantage and use them as buffs on 1d20 rolls or 3d6 rolls? Or heck even 1d6 rolls!
That way there will be a LOT less randomness involved in everything while still offering enough for luck, and other such things to play a factor. I personally favor that kind of system for when fights or events are most often for a small number of very powerful individuals rather than large armies. Maybe change the vote so that is offered as a third option?
EDIT: Also that aside, what are our chances of going super saiyan 2 if we go hail mary in the coming fight? Like if we actually choose to embrace the need to power up and ignore the consequences of breaking the masquerade?
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So, what you're saying is, we can't surrender at the turning point of destiny, it's do or die and we must not fall here?
should Dandere prepare to hit the ground, as we turn her laughter into fear?
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Well, super saiyan 2 needs epiphany, not need to be triggered so it would be harder. That said, it would break the wards, make the Enemy notice us and get everyone against us. As in, SS2 is such a big taboo that it would make us a bigger villain than Dandeer in the eyes of the exiles so I recomend we don't do that.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
OOC, we know that it requires an epiphany, a dramatic sudden shift in your worldview. Kakara's character will be significantly affected by this - she'd likely come away with the lesson that she can't rely on anyone else because they'll let her down when it's most needed (honestly not a bad lesson to learn, here) or possibly (but not probably) that she's going to have to sometimes kill people.
In terms of pure numbers, IC we know nothing about the requirements and have never made any attempt to learn more - it's probably a very steep Willpower check.
I'm not really in favour of it though. We're surrounded by 5 SSJs, who we'd immediately be fighting - probably killing, unless we manage to control the transformation. It's clear that going SSJ2 brought Future Vision Queen Kakara a great deal of regret, given how it's implied that she went SSJ2 at some point and killed at least Jaffur. I actually thought that she was a Kakara who chose to go SSJ2 here on my first read, and was sending the vision to try and change her fate, wiping her timeline from existence, though on further reading it doesn't quite line up with her claims.
Actually, whilst I'm still against it, going SSJ2 to prevent an evil mind mage from controlling every SSJ they have and subverting the entire ruling caste of the exiles is probably enough to have people wondering if it was the best move in a shitty situation.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, no, that's not actually how randomness works. A d20 with bonuses 1/5th the size of those on a d100 would be equally random and just less granular; however, since each advantage is (IIUC) equivalent to a +10 on the d100, a d20 with bonuses 1/10th the size of those on the d100 (1 instead of 10) would make random chance more of an issue. d20s are only a "gold standard" because of the massive popularity of D&D, which I would argue arises from many factors but not especially its die size selection.
3d6, on the other hand, is a suggestion with some merit - rolling multiple dice creates a more centralized distribution, where moderate results are disproportionately likely to arise. This does not meaningfully change how fixed-DC tests would behave, as there would still be specific percentage chances of success & failure which would be determined entirely by where the QM set the DC, but opposed rolls would become more likely to fall in favor of the more skilled party. Whether this is a desirable result or not is a personal judgment call - in my opinion, the current system is not excessively subject to randomness in opposed tests - but at least it would work toward your stated goal of reducing the effects of chance on results.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Just roll 2d50+1d2-2 for a better distribution over one hundred.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, a more centralized distribution - again, whether that's "better" is a matter of personal preference. But yes, that's a way to take the multiple-dice idea from 3d6 and apply it to the current scope/granularity of dice results. Does have the negative effect of more severely obfuscating actual success chances, though - if you need 71+ on a d100 you know you have a 30% chance, whereas if you need a 71+ on your proposed die combination it's far from clear that you have (thanks AnyDice!) an 18% chance. This is more of an issue than it would be for 3d6 in that people tend to have a better intuition for percentages than for probabilities out of 18, so directly contravening that intuition is likely to at least initially cause some stumbles.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Considering that we previously did very little reasoning on probabilities, I don't expect it would cause too much issue.
unObservant
Just drifting along, really
- Location
- USA
You know, leaving aside the consequences of doing so, is Kakara even capable of ascending to SS2 right now? We know that doing so requires both the epiphany and a moment of extreme emotion. From how I read the update, she might have had a chance at meeting the conditions before the vision, but once she was talking with future Kakara she started calming down, if only a little. And maybe it's just me reading too far into it, but by the end of the talk Kakara seemed nearly resigned.
Sure, it's possible that passing some kind of willpower check would let her rally, but that's really not a mindset conductive to stumbling across a life-changing revelation, let alone ramping up her emotional state fast enough that none of the mind controlled Super Saiyans react in time.
Sure, it's possible that passing some kind of willpower check would let her rally, but that's really not a mindset conductive to stumbling across a life-changing revelation, let alone ramping up her emotional state fast enough that none of the mind controlled Super Saiyans react in time.
- Location
- Italy
I'm not sure about the "bigger villain than Dandeer".
It would be very bad though.
I don't think they would kill us for it, but it would throw exile society into chaos. We might need to build spaceships to escape the planet, and/or go all in in having our whole population train for ssj and above if we want to stand a chance against the Enemy.
Really, if the enemy doesn't kill us some kind of civil war probably will.
She probably could. There are a lot of lessons and epiphanies she could go for, from "killing is sometime necessary" to "allies and tricks are not enough, i need to deal with it with my own strenght" to "I can't trust anyone completely".
We also have a few bonuses to reaching and controlling the ssj2 forms from past omakes i think.
It's just that the fallout would be hard to predict. We'd need to prepare for the Enemy, which means completely removing the ssj laws, or leaving the planet.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I'd remind people that basically the entirety of Exile society, top to bottom, considers someone going SSJ2 an offense worthy of essentially instant death. There's a reward system to elevate people to noble house status if they land the killing blow. It's one of the most unifying causes there is for our people.
And I'm not sure it would be a wise choice to put Kakara, who is very much against killing, in a situation where potentially-lowered inhibitions might lead to her, say, killing her father or grandmother or whatnot, potentially in a callous or cruel way, if pushed "sufficiently".
And I'm not sure it would be a wise choice to put Kakara, who is very much against killing, in a situation where potentially-lowered inhibitions might lead to her, say, killing her father or grandmother or whatnot, potentially in a callous or cruel way, if pushed "sufficiently".
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Part 2 is out!
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I feel like this is all the argument I could really conjure about "why maybe SSJ2 isn't our best choice right now". Because holy shit.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
For exiles, us going SS 2 would be worse than Dandeer from their perspective. Dandeer's mind control spell is like a mixture of her being slaver/rapist/traitor/tyrant/genocide. Someone going SS2 is causing an extinction event.
- Location
- Australia
This will be the case regardless of whether Kakara goes SS2 or not. Seriously, look at all the shit that happened in the Exiles' history. You've got Oni and those religious traitors, you have Yammar and everything with that, you've got the Sundering, and now we have this. Exile society spawns an absurdly high number of ludicrously evil people. It's only a matter of time before the Exiles destroy themselves, Super Saiyan 2 or no.
No. Super Saiyan 2 is in no way omnicidal, as shown by Gohan. It's also something that can be controlled, not unlike how Kakara controlled the berserk state of Spirit Saiyan. Ultimately, what Super Saiyan 2 would be is, at worst, a postponement of the end of their society. It's a way to ensure that instead of being ended now by Dandeer, it's ended later by the Enemy unless they go on the run again. Having to run away would to them be better than Dandeer taking over.
- Location
- Italy
problem is, we don't have enough spaceships for everyone. We have one or two Senzu ships, and the scout one.
And we don't know if we'd have enough time to learn how to build more of them.
It would probably be easier to try going for maximum strenght, including ssj gods ritual spam (if the gods will allow it) and no more ssj ban.
It will still probably bring the end of exile society, in one way or the other. And would probably bring the enemy to us even faster than just going ssj2.
On the other end, Spirit Saiyan with the ki of a few thousands ssj, ssj2, ssj3 and a few ssj gods and blue would be so beautifull *_*
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I would not count Yammar as "ludicrously evil". Dandeer is a contender (assuming she's not a meat-puppet for a Thing Beyond Space or whatnot). Oni, yes. But...honestly, the percentage of truly evil Exiles is really, really low. There'have been, what, maybe double digit folks like that? Out of many thousands over many generations. I don't think their destruction is as assured as you claim.
Also, my concern isn't that Kakara will be "omnicidal", it's that she will be way, way, way, way more ruthless, cruel, and even amoral than she normally is, and the psychological impact once she comes down from the high (which is not going to be the same as Spirit Saiyan) if she kills her family or friends while in that state, or does something that makes the death of House Talt look tame to Dandeer (or worse, someone who most of this thread doesn't have an irrational desire to commit atrocities toward).
And regarding "it'd be better to run", do we have assurances we'd be able to save most of our population? Or believe we would have one or more of the Royals (aka the people who are already trained Super Saiyans) who would be willing to a.) devote what would literally be the rest of their lives to training to achieve the highest power possible and b.) that they could achieve a sufficient level of power to hold the Enemy back for a non-zero amount of time?
- Location
- Australia
What makes you think she'd do any of that? Gohan only ever had strongly negative emotions in SS2 against Cell, who was Cell. He never came close to hurting anyone else, whether it was the human spectators or his allies among the Z Fighters when he was killing the Cell Jrs. Sure, Kakara may end up killing Dandeer, but not anyone else. OHKO them, sure, but not kill or maim. There is no part of Kakara that wants to hurt Jaffur, or Jaron, or her father, or any of the others. Expecting her to potentially kill them is only possible if you grossly misrepresent what the Super Saiyan 2 transformation has been shown to do.