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i knew it! it was obvious it was her, but i didn't consider Berra being already under her spell.
Stupid mistake, really (i was also not playing at that point, but i thought it was obvious when i read it)
I mean, it's not really a mistake when there was no way for us to know about it. I mean, we could have investigated Dandeer closer and peeled back her layers of deception and mind control. But Poptart was incredibly successful in making us all want nothing to do with her, to say nothing of the fact that Kakara seemingly had to take a Willpower check to just get close to her without snapping.
 
That's definitely wrong. At minimum, we could have won today by going spirit saiyan.
After all we've learned now about Dandeer's capabilities, I don't think we should just assume Spirit Saiyan would be an auto-win. She knows about it and knows how powerful it is, but she didn't seem super-concerned that we might use it. That might just be because she's stupid, but she could have easily had a counter somewhere in her sleeves. I mean, we assumed she didn't have a counter for "5 super saiyans" and look how that turned out.
 
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I say that when we go Shade, we practice the shit out of TK until we find Buu/the Androids/Hit/Namek, because a) I want to be able to pull a Dazarel and screw over my enemies Speed regardless of PL-difference, and b) as a Shade, which is basically a ghost from what I can tell, telepathy and TK are likely the powers that are going to take the least of a hit from our status, since they're as much mental as anything else, and I find it highly doubtful that our KI Control is going to nosedive from Shade status, as opposed to simply being a hell of a lot weaker.

Before anybody goes 'Ah Hah! I bet we could have done that!' consider the following. On one hand, we almost certainly have better KI Control than Dazarel, and we're only dealing with one target. However, Yammar has the same PL as us, our TK is almost certainly at least two grades lower than Dazarel's, TK takes a lot of concentration and, and this is arguably the most important thing, Yammar's seen this trick before. With all those disadvantages, I'm inclined to think Poptart tried it, and it failed miserably because it was simply too little bang for the amount of mental effort and QI expended.

It's basically the same problem as with Multiform. If we'd perfected it? A trump card that could have trivialized this fight (speaking of which, Perfected Multiform, plus Perfected TK, plus Perfected Combat Precog, plus a decently advanced Time Stop would make us nigh-unbeatable without some truly ludicrous bullshit, and since Multiform is nearly Perfected, we should go for that first) but we didn't, so it didn't.
 
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I say that when we go Shade, we practice the shit out of TK until we find Buu/the Androids/Hit/Namek, because a) I want to be able to pull a Dazarel and screw over my enemies Speed regardless of PL-difference, and b) as a Shade, which is basically a ghost from what I can tell, telepathy and TK are likely the powers that are going to take the least of a hit from our status, since they're as much mental as anything else, and I find it highly doubtful that our KI Control is going to nosedive from Shade status, as opposed to simply being a hell of a lot weaker.

Before anybody goes 'Ah Hah! I bet we could have done that!' consider the following. On one hand, we almost certainly have better KI Control than Dazarel, and we're only dealing with one target. However, Yammar has the same PL as us, our TK is almost certainly at least two grades lower than Dazarel's, TK takes a lot of concentration and , and this is arguably the most important thing, Yammar's seen this trick before. Without all those disadvantages, I'm inclined to think Poptart tried it, and it failed miserably because it was simply too little bang for the amount of mental effort and QI expended.

It's basically the same problem as with Multiform. If we'd perfected it? A trump card that could have trivialized this fight (speaking of which, Perfected Multiform, plus Perfected TK, plus Perfected Combat Precog, plus a decently advanced Time Stop would make us nigh-unbeatable without some truly ludicrous bullshit, and since Multiform is nearly Perfected, we should go for that first) but we didn't, so it didn't.
Dazarel bypasses power level by using his psychic powers for it. He's not relying on Ki like we do.
 
Well, being able to safely force Senzu Beans down people's throats (or powdering them mid-air and forcing people to swallow that, which would likely have been easier to be honest) would also have trivialized this fight, and I would not be surprised if advanced TK could at least partially bypass PL.
 
After all we've learned now about Dandeer's capabilities, I don't think we should just assume Spirit Saiyan would be an auto-win. She knows about it and knows how powerful it is, but she didn't seem super-concerned that we might use it. That might just be because she's stupid, but she could have easily had a counter somewhere in her sleeves. I mean, we assumed she didn't have a counter for "5 super saiyans" and look how that turned out.
I would be vastly surprised if she had more than a "I dont autolose" counter. 5 super saiyans was too much for her, and she only *barely* won that one after reducing our force to three super saiyans and taking the strongest three (aside from possibly jaffur) onside. Spirit Saiyan casually stomps the entire exile force, even if mobilized against us with nigh perfect coordination; the closest they get is stopping us from charging it.

Also, kinda surprised Yammar doesn't have IT, considering how many other skills he has. Is it that difficult to pick up relative to combat styles?
 
Also, kinda surprised Yammar doesn't have IT, considering how many other skills he has. Is it that difficult to pick up relative to combat styles?

I mean...I assume the fact that he has so many other skills is precisely because he allocated training time to them, rather than (for example) to Instant Transmission. As long as it takes a comparable amount of time to other skills, the fact that he doesn't have literally all skills mastered is sufficient explanation for how he could fail to know IT.
 
Also, kinda surprised Yammar doesn't have IT, considering how many other skills he has. Is it that difficult to pick up relative to combat styles?
It apparently requires advanced math that even clan heads like Raditz struggle with. I'd be entirely unsurprised if he simply isn't especially talented at mathematics.

Also, bear in mind that we know that the Royals as a whole fill certain roles- Given that a Full Power Super Saiyan all but teleports from an ordinary Saiyan's perspective and his fondness for wide area blasts, I suspect Yammar was specced to deal with large scale rebellions (like, say, House Talt) where Instant Transmission, while not valueless, isn't a must have.
 
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I hate how things turned out. I don't blame Poptart for how things went, but I still really very much dislike how things went. Perhaps the one thing that I'm not upset about that other people are is the insinuation that Kakara is an idiot because of who she lost to. To me, that's fine. It's fitting. She thought 3:2 odds were just as good as 2:1 odds and anyone with a decent grounding in mathematics knows that's incorrect. She was also wrong to trust in anyone but herself despite being shown time and time again how bad of an idea that is. She's young and lacks anything like the Genius trait. Her acts of stupidity make sense. It's in-character.

I don't like that dialogue with future Kakara. It read like the GM was saying "I'm bored of this this is what you should do or I'll punish you". I know that's not what PoptartProdigy meant. They're not an ass like that. They've made it clear they don't railroad. That's still how it reads and it annoys me.

There are three ways to get out of this. First, we bust off Super Saiyan 2. Second, we fuck off into space like future Kakara said. Third, we talk our way out of it, which has an extant but very low chance of success.

I don't give a shit about any of the options except the third. Super Saiyan 2 changes the game, and I don't want to change the game. I like the game as it's been, so I don't care for that option. My opinion on option 2 is like my opinion of option 1 except it's even lower. Not only does it change the game, it has us losing and leaving the world to be fucked for who knows how many years. More than that, it's a bad idea. Kakara has had years of prep time and she obviously doesn't know how to handle it well. There's no reason for us to trust that it'll work out better this time when she has way fewer resources to work with. Furthermore, it gives Dandeer a lot of time to do magic shit, and you never give sorcerers time to do anything.

Talking Dandeer down is the only resolution to this arc that I'm willing to go with. It doesn't change the game, it gives us a victory, and it is by far the best kind of victory Kakara can go for. After the End is about Kakara, a pacifist Saiyan. I like that concept. It's what hooked me in. This arc should end thematically on point, with Kakara winning as Kakara should win - through communication. It should not end with her pulling a power up out of her ass and beating in everyone's face. Nor should it end with her fucking off, training and adventuring for several years, then returning and beating in everyone's face. That's other people's paths to power. This should end with Kakara deciding to resolve this the best way she can and talking this bitch out. That's what her character concept is about. If we win, then I will stop hating the last update and instead like it, because it will have set up the best, most appropriate kind of victory possible. This has a very low chance of success, but that's always the case when it comes to final bosses, and low chance of success or not, a communication victory is the only path forward that I care for. Anything else, successful or not, I just have no interest in seeing.


@PoptartProdigy, I have two things to ask.

1. I'd like for you to refund me one of the cookies you used in the last update. One of them was from the Sophie omake and I accept that it's gone forever, but the other was a normal cookie. The outcome wouldn't have changed if it wasn't used, so it shouldn't have been spent.
2. Please don't spend any more of my cookies unless it's to talk Dandeer down.


EDIT: I'm also pretty annoyed at how a vote opened and closed while I was asleep but given how the votes went it wouldn't have mattered. Just to get it out there, my proposed solution would've been to throw Dandeer into space. Yammar would've had to grab her because the only other option was to let her die. While he did that, we could've revived Jaffur.

EDIT2: A diplomatic conclusion would also retroactively make Another's Eyes better, as it would be foreshadowing how Kakara would end up winning.
 
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Just to get it out there, my proposed solution would've been to throw Dandeer into space. Yammar would've had to grab her because the only other option was to let her die. While he did that, we could've revived Jaffur.
Not sure she could/would survive given the speeds needed to get a significant amount of time taken by Yammar, or that he'd have prioritized it over beating Kakara, but that's definitely an interesting idea.
 
Even now, I don't understand what saved us from a catastrophic pyrrhic victory if we teleported to the other side of the sun, then came back to find all our allies dead because Yammar expected a short-range tactical teleport and sensibly nuked the Hall. The voters didn't anticipate that, and if Kakara did, it's not in the text. Glad to have dodged that bullet, though. A 100% recoverable loss is better.

Not that I accept that we've lost yet, after Dandeer was dumb enough to let us wake up.
 
Even now, I don't understand what saved us from a catastrophic pyrrhic victory if we teleported to the other side of the sun, then came back to find all our allies dead because Yammar expected a short-range tactical teleport and sensibly nuked the Hall. The voters didn't anticipate that, and if Kakara did, it's not in the text. Glad to have dodged that bullet, though. A 100% recoverable loss is better.

Not that I accept that we've lost yet, after Dandeer was dumb enough to let us wake up.
The fact we were buried and he couldn't see us doing the IT gesture so he couldn't know we would jump until after we left the hall, by which point he would know it wasn't a tactical jump.
EDIT: I'm also pretty annoyed at how a vote opened and closed while I was asleep but given how the votes went it wouldn't have mattered. Just to get it out there, my proposed solution would've been to throw Dandeer into space. Yammar would've had to grab her because the only other option was to let her die. While he did that, we could've revived Jaffur.
Back around the time they told us they rolled for every plan they could think of, one of the plans Poptart mentioned was throwing Dandeer away to force Yammar to catch her so that Kakara could do something else. Yammar passed the check to catch her with telekinesis without slowing down.
 
I say that when we go Shade, we practice the shit out of TK until we find Buu/the Androids/Hit/Namek, because a) I want to be able to pull a Dazarel and screw over my enemies Speed regardless of PL-difference, and b) as a Shade, which is basically a ghost from what I can tell, telepathy and TK are likely the powers that are going to take the least of a hit from our status, since they're as much mental as anything else, and I find it highly doubtful that our KI Control is going to nosedive from Shade status, as opposed to simply being a hell of a lot weaker.

Before anybody goes 'Ah Hah! I bet we could have done that!' consider the following. On one hand, we almost certainly have better KI Control than Dazarel, and we're only dealing with one target. However, Yammar has the same PL as us, our TK is almost certainly at least two grades lower than Dazarel's, TK takes a lot of concentration and, and this is arguably the most important thing, Yammar's seen this trick before. With all those disadvantages, I'm inclined to think Poptart tried it, and it failed miserably because it was simply too little bang for the amount of mental effort and QI expended.

It's basically the same problem as with Multiform. If we'd perfected it? A trump card that could have trivialized this fight (speaking of which, Perfected Multiform, plus Perfected TK, plus Perfected Combat Precog, plus a decently advanced Time Stop would make us nigh-unbeatable without some truly ludicrous bullshit, and since Multiform is nearly Perfected, we should go for that first) but we didn't, so it didn't.
Multiform is impossible as a shade.
 
@PoptartProdigy, I have two things to ask.

1. I'd like for you to refund me one of the cookies you used in the last update. One of them was from the Sophie omake and I accept that it's gone forever, but the other was a normal cookie. The outcome wouldn't have changed if it wasn't used, so it shouldn't have been spent.
2. Please don't spend any more of my cookies unless it's to talk Dandeer down.
While I am of course willing to spend cookies according to your discretion, and will bank the last for talking down Dandeer, I did spend the prior cookies according to your instructions -- on critical rolls that needed them. One, as I stated previously, went to unlocking Novice Combat Precognition. The other went to giving Kakara the 10% power boost in the fight with Yammar. Both went to critical rolls that needed them, and one actually went on to impact and swing several. They both were part of my good-faith efforts at giving Kakara the best possible chance at a win. While that didn't pan out, I applied them as agreed, with the best of intentions, and in the most effective manner possible.

Unfortunately, while I understand what drives you to ask, and I sincerely sympathize, I will not be refunding them.
 
If we do end up taking a third option I hope we take our ques from DBZA 60. Inform Dandeer that everything she says brings us one step closer to the edge and we're about to break, and to shut up when we're talking to you. I glossed over it on first read because of salt but unhappy future us mentions that Dandeers world domination ritual is brittle and that even a single free super saiyan would ruin it. Dunno how you'd manage to play possum without getting mind whamied, or how shade and PL work or anything, but it's something to consider.
 
i knew it! it was obvious it was her, but i didn't consider Berra being already under her spell.
Stupid mistake, really (i was also not playing at that point, but i thought it was obvious when i read it)


...i didn't even consider to connect this one to her! Of the four cases it was probably the harder to connect.

Damn, we did miss a lot of things.

she's also pretty arrogant. If she thinks the method is perfect as it is, she might choose to research something else.
Same, I hadn't caught up yet either.
 
The second idea I currently have is to switch to an advantage-based system. The way this would work is that instead of offering a +10 per level, as they presently do, skills would offer one advantage per level. Traits would go from offering small (+10), medium (+20), large (+30), or other bonuses, and instead switch to providing certain amounts of advantage (1, 2, or 3 advantages, respectively). The way checks would resolve, in the new system, is that instead of setting DCs or opposed rolls, I would say that checks require a certain number of advantages to pass, or that the winner of an opposed check is the one who can bring more advantages to bear. This makes things easier to predict and track at the cost of the randomness of dice rolls. The goal of this system would be to privilege the players' attempts at leveraging their character's traits and skills by making such efforts reliable to a very measurable degree.
If randomness is important, than have a random advantage that for every challenge is a coin flip to see what side it lands on. If you have two advantages and they have three, the random one might give you three to hold your own, or give them four for a decisive victory. In the former case, to make the random advantage matter, it should break ties in its favor.
 
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