HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Deal. Do you want to see the Omake I wrote, or should I write something outside that fight first?
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Write what you like; I'm not judging omakes for the next while in any event. People can tag me with them once we've resumed normal operations.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
On the bright side this is almost the perfect place in the narrative for a mechanics shift. We've lost the fight which incited the whole quest and now we have to play damage control. Would have been perfect if the shift came with us actually leaving Garenhuld but the response to the last update has pretty much necessitated it happen now.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
I think I'm going to echo Modus here. I don't like retcons. There are circumstances that can justify them, absolutely, and I completely understand why some people do want that here. To me, though, the bad taste it would leave in my mouth isn't worth it for this, so I would vote to go forward from here.
Oddly, I don't really mind leaving garenhuld. I think I'll miss Maya and Jaffur/Jaron, and maybe some of the other misfits, and I'll miss having Dandelor as a reliable ally, but I am completely willing to shift over to a different setting; my initial thought had been afterlife adventures, but thinking on it I'm completely willing to hang out with 17 and 18 and whatever members of the ensemble cast seem interesting a go. If we can come up with a plan from here that has a solid shot at working, I'll go for it, but I no longer hold my objections to leaving very vehemently.
Oddly, I don't really mind leaving garenhuld. I think I'll miss Maya and Jaffur/Jaron, and maybe some of the other misfits, and I'll miss having Dandelor as a reliable ally, but I am completely willing to shift over to a different setting; my initial thought had been afterlife adventures, but thinking on it I'm completely willing to hang out with 17 and 18 and whatever members of the ensemble cast seem interesting a go. If we can come up with a plan from here that has a solid shot at working, I'll go for it, but I no longer hold my objections to leaving very vehemently.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Alright, so I have two initial ideas for the mechanics rework, on a broad level. The first is just to stick with what I already have, but scale it back. As I said in the hiatus post, where I currently roll five times for five actions, I instead would roll one time for five by abstracting several different things into one. This would make the mechanical operation of the system easier, but it wouldn't aid in people understanding what the system fundamentally is, given that it has several moving parts which can be very difficult to track.
The second idea I currently have is to switch to an advantage-based system. The way this would work is that instead of offering a +10 per level, as they presently do, skills would offer one advantage per level. Traits would go from offering small (+10), medium (+20), large (+30), or other bonuses, and instead switch to providing certain amounts of advantage (1, 2, or 3 advantages, respectively). The way checks would resolve, in the new system, is that instead of setting DCs or opposed rolls, I would say that checks require a certain number of advantages to pass, or that the winner of an opposed check is the one who can bring more advantages to bear. This makes things easier to predict and track at the cost of the randomness of dice rolls. The goal of this system would be to privilege the players' attempts at leveraging their character's traits and skills by making such efforts reliable to a very measurable degree.
These are merely my first thoughts, and these ideas are not yet fully formed, but if you have any thoughts on them at present, please do feel free to chime in. I am, after all, doing this on your account. I'm eager to hear your opinions.
Okay, so essentially the way the system works is that when I encounter the need for a roll (which is something I define arbitrarily), I apply first relevant skills, then relevant traits, then relevant abilities, and finally any circumstantial modifiers that may apply. In principle, this is simple, but it means that any single roll has several, even up to dozens of factors going into it, on each side. For instance, each level of skill increases the result of rolls related to that skill by ten, or reduces it by ten in case of negative levels. This can be very difficult to track, and I'm wary of alienating people by too dense a system.
The second idea I currently have is to switch to an advantage-based system. The way this would work is that instead of offering a +10 per level, as they presently do, skills would offer one advantage per level. Traits would go from offering small (+10), medium (+20), large (+30), or other bonuses, and instead switch to providing certain amounts of advantage (1, 2, or 3 advantages, respectively). The way checks would resolve, in the new system, is that instead of setting DCs or opposed rolls, I would say that checks require a certain number of advantages to pass, or that the winner of an opposed check is the one who can bring more advantages to bear. This makes things easier to predict and track at the cost of the randomness of dice rolls. The goal of this system would be to privilege the players' attempts at leveraging their character's traits and skills by making such efforts reliable to a very measurable degree.
These are merely my first thoughts, and these ideas are not yet fully formed, but if you have any thoughts on them at present, please do feel free to chime in. I am, after all, doing this on your account. I'm eager to hear your opinions.
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I'd personally prefer sticking with a version of the current system, mostly because I do like a certain degree of randomness even if it means we're sometimes more likely to lose.
I'm also afraid an advantage system would lead us to constantly try to levy only our largest bonuses and thus take the same actions over and over (though that could of course be negated with circumstantial advantages and disadvantages).
I'm also afraid an advantage system would lead us to constantly try to levy only our largest bonuses and thus take the same actions over and over (though that could of course be negated with circumstantial advantages and disadvantages).
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, there absolutely would be circumstantial bonuses and such, yes. That said, you do make an insightful point: an advantages system, while it would make planning easier, would also mean that Hail Maries like the Genki Dama simply would not happen. Stuff like that is solely a function of the current system.
Okay, now I'm getting salty. Now we all have to wait through weeks of cooldown and pointless mechanical redesign because the noisy bad apples just can't accept that the players screwed up. Not the GM, not the story, not the mechanics, the players. This was a difficult unforeseen, though not entirely unforeseeable with different preparatory decisions, challenge which was nevertheless entirely winnable and the players just didn't measure up to it. There is no need to do anything but proceed to the next update while trying to make better decisions in the future.
Breaking halfway through the update or even going back to the last vote seems pretty pointless. I'd like to see the GM game out from the start the multiple alternate universes where the players won by making better decisions under exactly the same mechanics with all of the rolls shown just to hammer home the fact that there was only and exactly one cause of the preventable failure here, but beyond that minimizing the time wasted until the game gets back up and running is preferable.
Breaking halfway through the update or even going back to the last vote seems pretty pointless. I'd like to see the GM game out from the start the multiple alternate universes where the players won by making better decisions under exactly the same mechanics with all of the rolls shown just to hammer home the fact that there was only and exactly one cause of the preventable failure here, but beyond that minimizing the time wasted until the game gets back up and running is preferable.
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Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
I also have preference for a version of the current system because I am generally quite happy with how the quest progressed so far. I am not the kind to care for mechanics usually though so I am not sure if you should take that opinion too seriously: I apreciate the degree of randomness so I have reason to push for it but I am not the kind who is too concerned about knowing how things work besides whether it is likely to work or not and so far most choices seem to follow common sense.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Do you believe Kakara would be faster at moving or powering down or IT'ing, than Yammar would be at a knockout blow as we power down right before dropping his own power level?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I believe that Yammar would not be willing to risk remaining at a high power level.
If he's willing to murder an entire clan over OPSEC, etc, he has a good handle on what existential risks are.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
The Wards breaking guarantees at least a few moments of power. As I understand it, the estimated reach of SSJ1 energy is short enough he'd likely be willing to take a calculated risk, and I don't trust that Kakara's skill in anything relevant (Ki Control, IT, Combat, Speed, Leveraging the above, etc.) is high enough to counter a wily old man.
I am also not a fan of Kakara destroying one of the main defenses/sanctuaries of the Exile people for uncertain gain. What if this gambit gave us less than a minute more's time before we were KO'ed anyway?
- Location
- Italy
I think i already said it, but i actually like the current mechanics. I really don't see what the problem was with them, difference in opposed skills + traits + difference in power levels gave bonuses and maluses to rolls. I find all the complaints silly.
Except the ones about making it clear from the last story post that no possible plan had a chance to succeed.
It makes sense we could not win against Yammar, or even escape, at least to me.
As it has already been said, any plan the players would think of now would surely be something we would have not done in the first place. We would have gone for IT away (which would have failed), or heal beam (which would have failed). Or we would have tried to negotiate (which, you can guess, would have failed). Other plans are being considered now only because it has been explicitely stated all of these would have failed.
We really lost when Vegeta succeded in his sneak attack and Apra was distracted, we just took a while to notice it. And we made many other mistakes, both big and small, before this battle even started, which didn't help at all. It happens.
That said, if the system has to change, i think small changes are what we should go for. Reducing the number of rolls (especially if there are really hundreds of those per battle post) makes sense. The advantage system doesn't appeal to me.
Maybe it could make sense including a "best of X rolls" system.
Poptart, if you really want to reduce the salt, the best way is probably to post the rolls, maybe under spoilers. Even if they're not organized. Otherwise even if you change the mechanics you're not really solving the problem. Not all of it at least.
I would have much preferred just continuing with the Dandeer speech, but i understand why you want to take the time to make certain this doesn't happen again. It was ridiculous.
Except the ones about making it clear from the last story post that no possible plan had a chance to succeed.
It makes sense we could not win against Yammar, or even escape, at least to me.
As it has already been said, any plan the players would think of now would surely be something we would have not done in the first place. We would have gone for IT away (which would have failed), or heal beam (which would have failed). Or we would have tried to negotiate (which, you can guess, would have failed). Other plans are being considered now only because it has been explicitely stated all of these would have failed.
We really lost when Vegeta succeded in his sneak attack and Apra was distracted, we just took a while to notice it. And we made many other mistakes, both big and small, before this battle even started, which didn't help at all. It happens.
That said, if the system has to change, i think small changes are what we should go for. Reducing the number of rolls (especially if there are really hundreds of those per battle post) makes sense. The advantage system doesn't appeal to me.
Maybe it could make sense including a "best of X rolls" system.
Poptart, if you really want to reduce the salt, the best way is probably to post the rolls, maybe under spoilers. Even if they're not organized. Otherwise even if you change the mechanics you're not really solving the problem. Not all of it at least.
I would have much preferred just continuing with the Dandeer speech, but i understand why you want to take the time to make certain this doesn't happen again. It was ridiculous.
- Location
- Montana
Poptart,
I grieve to say this but adjusting the rules probably won't help much. I do enjoy quests here and on SB, but two things have stood out to me.
1. Some quests are just too complicated for more casual or busy people. I'm in a busy phase of my life and miss actively playing more, but until thing slow down again all I can do is lurk and enjoy the stories.
2. Some players are incapable of loosing gracefully. Perhaps they are fully invested in the character, are playing the wrong genre, or are an epic troll, but they can not accept loss. For the most consumed even a minor setback is worth arguing for pages. I personally prefer quests with some character growth and find pure power fantasy tales appallingly dull.
Regardless, if you are going to tweak your rules, ensure they serve you and let you tell the story you want to tell. Trying to make rules that will keep your player base 'happy' is an effort in futility.
I grieve to say this but adjusting the rules probably won't help much. I do enjoy quests here and on SB, but two things have stood out to me.
1. Some quests are just too complicated for more casual or busy people. I'm in a busy phase of my life and miss actively playing more, but until thing slow down again all I can do is lurk and enjoy the stories.
2. Some players are incapable of loosing gracefully. Perhaps they are fully invested in the character, are playing the wrong genre, or are an epic troll, but they can not accept loss. For the most consumed even a minor setback is worth arguing for pages. I personally prefer quests with some character growth and find pure power fantasy tales appallingly dull.
Regardless, if you are going to tweak your rules, ensure they serve you and let you tell the story you want to tell. Trying to make rules that will keep your player base 'happy' is an effort in futility.
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Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
My take is that the randomness of rolls is good, and that if people want insight into the mechanical guts of the system, it's not unreasonable to ask them to keep up with some number tracking (though it would be best, if possible, to lay out the bonuses in plain sight on the character sheet rather than just having descriptive skill levels and suchlike). The rolls & mechanics could go in spoilers or stay in invisitext to avoid scaring off people who are just here for the story.
As he made pretty clear in the last update, Yammar was mostly willing to murder an entire clan as a matter of good old-fashioned revenge. I strongly suspect that his attitude toward us breaking the wards would be similar to his attitude toward us taking Dandeer hostage: namely, such tactics cannot be allowed to work & so he would simply take us down as quickly as possible.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
A minute's time is more than enough for Kakara to IT to behind the sun and wake up Dandeer out there, where Kakara is her only hope of returning.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
I don't know why people are still trying to win when it has been all-but-flat-out-stated that victory is impossible at this point.
All we can do now is survive, and plan for victory later. When we return, we shall do so with the resources of a galaxy and crush Dandeer like the bug she always was.
Then we will break the Seals on everyone and we can all have a tea party!
All we can do now is survive, and plan for victory later. When we return, we shall do so with the resources of a galaxy and crush Dandeer like the bug she always was.
Then we will break the Seals on everyone and we can all have a tea party!
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Jaffur would not willingly attend a tea party with Vegeta nor Berra with Vegeta or Yammar. We would have a greater chance of success if the tea party was while they are still sealed.
Speaking personally here, but it's pretty simple really, I don't like losing. I don't like being told that despite every effort we put forth, we just weren't good enough, and that's basically what the thread is being told. Despite years of planning and effort, we failed. Everything we worked for might as well be dust, all the work we put into diplomacy, all the friendships we developed, everything with the aliens, all the work we put into saving Jaffur, it's basically all gone. No matter how much someone likes you, it doesn't matter when they're being mind controlled. We failed back in the prologue and despite all out planning and growth we failed again here. We have to give up everything, not for an episode, or for a week, or even a month, but for years. No matter how fast we grow or how hard we work, the planet we come back to won't be the one we left behind, or the people we left behind, and it's all our fault. If we'd just been better, if we'd been stronger, or smarter, or luckier, maybe we'd have won. But we didn't. We failed.
The whole thing about Dandeer being an idiot doesn't help either, with the implication that we're just as dumb, if not more so, for losing so thoroughly.
The vision thing just added even more salt to the wound, implying that we couldn't possibly come up with a good plan on our own and that the only real solution was to just take the handout we were given.
If you take all that and combine it with what looks like a challenge from Poptart, that there was simply no possible way to win, and it's really no surprise that there are players who want to go back and give it a shot and try to salvage a victory from this absolute defeat.
Obviously none of that was the intended take-away from any of this. The loss wasn't something Poptart forced us into, it was just how the die rolled. The Dandeer thing was actually intended to do the opposite and say that despite our plans sometimes shit just happens, and that we've got this and we'll almost certainly win the rematch and she won't catch us by surprise again. The vision was probably supposed to be a message of hope, that this isn't over and we have a way out, that we can come back and save the day. The statement from Poptart was just that, a statement, an explanation for why things happened the way they happened. Just because something wasn't intended doesn't mean it's not there though. Egos aren't less bruised just because Poptart wasn't trying to bruise them.
With all that, is it really any surprise that some people want that chance to redeem themselves? To prove that we can win this, even if Poptart says it's impossible?
The whole thing about Dandeer being an idiot doesn't help either, with the implication that we're just as dumb, if not more so, for losing so thoroughly.
The vision thing just added even more salt to the wound, implying that we couldn't possibly come up with a good plan on our own and that the only real solution was to just take the handout we were given.
If you take all that and combine it with what looks like a challenge from Poptart, that there was simply no possible way to win, and it's really no surprise that there are players who want to go back and give it a shot and try to salvage a victory from this absolute defeat.
Obviously none of that was the intended take-away from any of this. The loss wasn't something Poptart forced us into, it was just how the die rolled. The Dandeer thing was actually intended to do the opposite and say that despite our plans sometimes shit just happens, and that we've got this and we'll almost certainly win the rematch and she won't catch us by surprise again. The vision was probably supposed to be a message of hope, that this isn't over and we have a way out, that we can come back and save the day. The statement from Poptart was just that, a statement, an explanation for why things happened the way they happened. Just because something wasn't intended doesn't mean it's not there though. Egos aren't less bruised just because Poptart wasn't trying to bruise them.
With all that, is it really any surprise that some people want that chance to redeem themselves? To prove that we can win this, even if Poptart says it's impossible?
Well, I ended up going a bit deeper into my own head than I planned there, but TLDR: People want a chance to try to prove they can win this.
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- Location
- California
Because Poptart has told us that this was not a railroaded encounter. Except, it sort of was. Sure, they tell us that we could have still won, but I don't think we could have. The moment this descended into a combat encounter we were pretty much screwed, because we had not prepared for that. For two years we worked towards a social encounter, which means our combat abilities aren't up to par. But we ended up losing because of that, because the social option was a trap. We spent two RL years working on a trap option, and lost because of that.
And I maintain, that while that may be excellent writing, it's not good gameplay. We ended up in what was essentially a no win scenario with only one way out. And I'm not sure how that is fundamentally different than railroading.
With all due respect, and I do mean that since I can tell you are legitimately angry, I don't agree. So far disagreement has been perfectly civil since the unlock. This is by far the angriest post made since then.
Several people are just confused and angry at the situation. We all still respect you a great deal, and the amount of time you put into things. But we are allowed to feel that way.
Personally, I am greatly saddened that the least interesting arc of this quest has now fundamentally ended it. We are moving into a new quest now, one where all our previous efforts to reform Saiyan society and integrate it into Garenhuld (which were in many ways the meat of the quest and the main focus) are utterly meaningless, and all our previous friends and fellow social links are unreachable. Having two years of work stripped away like that, by a villain it's quite clear a lot of people didn't care for, is quite upsetting. And I only hopped on recently, I can only imagine how everyone else feels.
Again, I feel the need to stress this. What happened here is excellent writing. But there is a difference between good writing and good gameplay. And it is the fact that this is a game that makes this feel like such a body blow.
Well, I can't speak to others, but for myself if the rules are not clearly available I will simply assume they are unimportant. Simple dice controls designed to amplify and aid the story you are telling. It's only now, when they turn against us, that we lear just how numbers driven this story is, and how vital having access to the rules is.
There is a difference between having access to the rules, and knowing you need to use that access. If the rules were going to be this important, then they should have been on the front page, not available upon request.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Again, why do you believe Kakara, after having likely strained herself producing a sufficient burst of power to break the Wards entirely, would be capable of performing IT without Yammar's interference?
Either she stays powered up until after her IT (potentially "winning" via PL-granted speed), and thus enhances the risk of that power signature broadcasting free and clear for far too long of a distance, or she immediately powers down after Ward breakage and is likely stomped by Yammar who's got several times the life experience Kakara does.
Kakara entered the fight with two opponents showing no interest in attacking so long as she only focused on helping Apra, then disabled those two opponents with one of them reduced to outright insta-loss level, then proceeded to get an absurd buff working synergistically with the combat god on her side who could already break the power limit rules over his knee and could solo his father. Then the allied mage showed up and started KOing the enemy combatants while his family disabled the enemy mage. Oh, and her side was the one with the Senzu beans.
The fight was lost by the time of the last votes when the vision had come knocking trying to tell Kakara that the fight was lost. It absolutely was not lost at the start.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
...Because you literally just said "What if this gambit gave us less than a minute more's time before we were KO'ed anyway?"? A minute is more than enough to IT at any PL.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Option: Have 'chance' (represented by dice) provide some number of advantages.
(Incidentally: To anyone who wants to write RPGs, I recommend the 200 Word RPG Challenge Archives. It's got an awful lot of interesting mechanical concepts, some surprisingly crunchy entries, and by necessity each game is a fairly short read.)