Dragon Ball: After the End
VicSage
Not Crazy
- Location
- Czechoslovakia
The author has already said we can ask. It costs us nothing to do so, and might gain us everything.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It costs an action. An action that allows Vegeta to finish transforming.
VicSage
Not Crazy
- Location
- Czechoslovakia
Vegeta is not going to finish transforming in the 1/10 or even 1/100 of a second it would take to ask. He's not super-saiyan, that doesn't mean he isn't powered up enough that he's experiencing dilated time. It's not costing an action, it's just making us wait for another update.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Dandelor is operating in significantly slower relative-time than Kakara is.
Can someone who is more versed in this quest's lore than me give me a quote as to how PL scales relative-time?
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
It's proportionate. So he experiences time around 800 times slower- assuming he has the Saiyan limit, which Sorcerers don't usually have. That is, we act about 800 times faster than him, assuming he is at the limit, when sorcerers apparently usually don't power train as much.
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- Location
- Danmark
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. "I'm sorry, Dad. Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. "I'm sorry, Dad. Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. "I'm sorry, Dad. Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Alright, thanks.
So, Kakara has to wait 800 units of yes (snrk). According to voices.com, 800 words would be around 6 minutes of speaking. Assuming words are an average of 2 syllables, that'd be 3 minutes of time to wait for a monosyllabic answer in relative-saiyan time if and only if Dandelor was at the maximum non-super saiyan power levels.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Yep. At one point Poptart indicated 'most' regular Saiyans are in the 1-3 million power level range- if we assume Dandelor is in that range, the relative difference is 5-15 times worse. So by your estimates 15-45 minutes of relative time from Kakara's scale.
… I'm pretty sure that's plenty of time for the Yammar/Apra fight to wind up settled.
EDIT: Dug up the quotes;
Typical Saiyan adult 1-3 million.
or 1.5 million here. Close enough.
The overwhelming majority of Sorcerers are 'well below' a million, most 'not even hitting the hundreds of thousands'.
If Dandelor is 100,000 on the dot, that makes us not 800 times faster than him, but rather ~11,250 faster, if I've done my math right. Which I might not have.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Off topic, but I caught up in Apocrypha omakes.
While You Were Partying, I Studied The Blade
Like this one though.
While You Were Partying, I Studied The Blade
Like this one though.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
He'll be too busy screaming in pain! Or possibly rage. Could go either way here, really.
Wait, that's not correct at all. Jaffur, according to the default write-in, recovers before Vegeta does. The Senzus aren't left defenceless at any point.
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
Why do you want to verbalize the apology anyway? Both votes say that we're sorry and I'm fairly sure Berra would feel worst because we felt we needed to apologize. And if we feel REALLY torn up about it we can apologize afterwards (while he's in an appropriate mindset to accept one).
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Interesting idea that people haven't discussed.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Because Berra, our dad, is about to suffer terrible, terrible pain. Pain that may last quite a while depending on how hard it is to unravel that spell. There is a slim chance- it's unlikely but it's not impossible- that he may be driven irretrievably mad or that this pain may never go away. And we're the one who decided to do it.
If I were doing this to my father I'd tell him I was sorry beforehand. And I don't even like the old goat that much by father-son standards...
Heck, more seriously/generally, I'd tell almost anyone I was sorry about it. This spell is going to hurt as much as Dandeer could make it hurt. That's a LOT.
...
Taken more abstractly, I would also like to preserve, so far as possible, Kakara's compassionate character. I'd rather not end this fight with "+100/150 progress towards Ruthless trait" or whatever, and given some of the commentary Kakara made, I'm a bit worried about that.
And to do whatever limited amount can be done in this short and fraught time to limit damage to her relationship with Berra. Because even if everyone involved is, ah, reasonable, they're still not Mister Spock. Berra is going to instinctively flinch at the memory of this agony, he's going to associate it with the fight, and he's probably going to realize we had a role in it unless you plan to match Deceits with him forever on this issue. I want to at least try to inoculate against that, because the extremely solid bond among the Gokun royalty is both a big part of what makes this quest fun to me, and a big asset for them and for Garenhuld, as the problems the Vegetan royalty have make apparent.
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
Because Berra, our dad, is about to suffer terrible, terrible pain. Pain that may last quite a while depending on how hard it is to unravel that spell. There is a slim chance- it's unlikely but it's not impossible- that he may be driven irretrievably mad or that this pain may never go away. And we're the one who decided to do it.
If I were doing this to my father I'd tell him I was sorry beforehand. And I don't even like the old goat that much by father-son standards...
Heck, more seriously/generally, I'd tell almost anyone I was sorry about it. This spell is going to hurt as much as Dandeer could make it hurt. That's a LOT.
...
Taken more abstractly, I would also like to preserve, so far as possible, Kakara's compassionate character. I'd rather not end this fight with "+100/150 progress towards Ruthless trait" or whatever, and given some of the commentary Kakara made, I'm a bit worried about that.
And to do whatever limited amount can be done in this short and fraught time to limit damage to her relationship with Berra. Because even if everyone involved is, ah, reasonable, they're still not Mister Spock. Berra is going to instinctively flinch at the memory of this agony, he's going to associate it with the fight, and he's probably going to realize we had a role in it unless you plan to match Deceits with him forever on this issue. I want to at least try to inoculate against that, because the extremely solid bond among the Gokun royalty is both a big part of what makes this quest fun to me, and a big asset for them and for Garenhuld, as the problems the Vegetan royalty have make apparent.
I don't believe we'll turn in to some emotionless sociopath if we don't choose to say this. In fact this wasn't even an issue until it was made one. In either option it says that Kakara is sorry. I assumed that we could trust Kakara to be sorry if the option says she is sorry, whether she vocalises it or not.
Addressing the traumatized Berra issue: I EXPECT us to be working our communication skills after this fight ,especially in regards to Berra. I figure we're going to play therapist as much as we're able after it's all said and done. SAYING sorry (right now) is going to help literally no one and if it just so happens that this leads to Berra going insane or experiencing eternal suffering (despite the fact Dandelor is going to be here after the fight and it's not in his best interest to let him continue suffering if he can stop it) then we'll fix it as best we can and I-told-you-sos can be had. But before that hypothetically happens it's simply my opinion that it really doesn't matter and just splits the vote.
@PoptartProdigy does Kakara not saying sorry make her less sorry?
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- Location
- Italy
i think, in the worst case, we could probably seal the memory and/or effects of this pain and that would probably be enough to recover him from madness.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
You are heavily overstating my claim. Please dial back the exaggeration a bit.
My basic point is that while Kakara isn't wrong to be basically dismissing the pain Dandeer is in, to be taking her as a saiyan shield, and while is making a correct tactical decision by putting Berra through the agony caused by breaking Dandeer's spell on Berra... The combination of the three of them put together does sound like exactly the kind of thing that adds "Ruthless Streak" as a subtrait under "Decisive" or some such thing. Will it necessarily tip us over in this one incident? No, but it's not the direction I want to move the character.
It's not about making the plan more likely to succeed, it's about Kakara and Berra being people with emotions and a family relationship above and beyond the tactical practical dice-rolling that goes on during a fight.
Again, my point here is that in the unlikely event that this has long term or irreversible consequences, I DO want to at least have said "I'm sorry." Are you familiar with the concept of 'last words?' Like, you want the last words you say to someone to be positive, like people regretting it when the last words they say to someone are angry words? Yeah, that.
Which has been my exact complaint and frustration with this process, that we're not allowed to separate the two decisions, but there's nothing I can do about it and nothing I could have done would fix the problem since any write-in vote that is part of a plan "splits the vote."
So I'm not going to apologize for a write-in that "splits the vote" in an approval-voting system, when I think that the write-in choice is both in-character for Kakara and likely to take the character in a slightly more compassionate direction that would otherwise be the case.
...
I mean, to step back and acknowledge your overall argument, I get that you feel like this is pointless. And I suppose it might be if the game were purely simulationist. Then it would all be about tactical-practical stuff, I suppose.
But it's not pure simulation, it's also narrative.
This is why Kakara's traits tend to emerge at pivotal moments in her life, not over time as a result of study and practice. Because while your character is shaped by long-term actions and simply expresses itself in a crisis as a rule in reality... it's those narratively important moments that define who someone is in a story.
If this were another Dragonball series, the way Kakara behaves in these moments, knowing that she NEEDS to break Dandeer's control of her father's mind but that breaking the control will cause him horrible pain, and that there's no time to argue or come up with another solution... Again, the way Kakara behaves in these moments would be a major defining feature of her character arc. A lot of what we say about her would be influenced by how she acts, and her character traits (plus how Poptart plays Kakara's actions, the ones we don't actually vote on) hinge on that sort of consideration.
I was hoping- am hoping- to bend that arc in the direction of compassion, or away from the direction of ruthlessness, or both.
It's not just about how sorry Kakara feels inside, it's about how important she thinks it is to acknowledge how sorry she feels, and how sensitive she is to others' feelings on a non-abstract, non-intellectual, empathic level.
Maybe we'll be able to do that, in the unlikely event that it's necessary.I hope so, if it's the only way to help him heal.
But I don't think we should get in the habit of thinking "being able to have our friends cast magical seals on people's memory means never having to say we're sorry." That's a bit too Dandeer-ish for my comfort. Also, there's probably a reason that the ability to cast magical seals on people's thoughts and memories isn't a widely and commonly known way to avoid problems caused by traumatic events. It may not be an easy or clean solution.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't think you really need to look further than "Saiyans don't like sorcerers, and have shitty views on mental health".
- Location
- US
We can be as sorry as we like, but we don't need to verbalize that to our active aggressor.
If I were in Berra's shoes, I'd see this as an obvious choice - take out the strongest opposition, achieve the objective, then handle the consequences. Providing any warning subtly reduces the odds of success of the first step in the chain - which is something I don't see Berra condoning regardless of whom Kakara is warning via premature apology.
If we accept the need to invoke the spell-break backlash as a consequence, our handling of the aftermath does not substantively change by a quick apology before hand.
I'd honestly be more concerned that a recovered Berra is more disappointed by our needless warning than by our making a tough but logical decision in the heat of combat.
Edit: and as to an unrecovered Berra... I don't think the apology will make a significant dent in the emotional fallout from essentially ordering the crippling of our father.
If I were in Berra's shoes, I'd see this as an obvious choice - take out the strongest opposition, achieve the objective, then handle the consequences. Providing any warning subtly reduces the odds of success of the first step in the chain - which is something I don't see Berra condoning regardless of whom Kakara is warning via premature apology.
If we accept the need to invoke the spell-break backlash as a consequence, our handling of the aftermath does not substantively change by a quick apology before hand.
I'd honestly be more concerned that a recovered Berra is more disappointed by our needless warning than by our making a tough but logical decision in the heat of combat.
Edit: and as to an unrecovered Berra... I don't think the apology will make a significant dent in the emotional fallout from essentially ordering the crippling of our father.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Okay, fuck it, I give up.
Saying you're sorry is...
[pauses, self-consciously aborts rant, shuts the hell up]
Saying you're sorry is...
[pauses, self-consciously aborts rant, shuts the hell up]
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I feel you there, dude. Same with regard to knocking our Vegeta.
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
Hmm... I believe we're just seeing this situation differently. I understand wanting to act like compassionate people in this situation but I don't think the two options are mutually exclusive. Whether we say it or not our thoughts are still of our father. I understand that our actions have consequences but this isn't "How do you feel about murdering Berra: Nothing or Sadness", it's "Do you feel sorry or feel sorry and say sorry". Neither really scream ruthless to ME but they obviously mean things to you and those things don't register as problems to me. I feel in the worst case scenario we turn Berra in to a vegetable (I'm just hoping we don't) and regret not saying sorry but either way we're going to do it.
Also I know of last words but I'd consider saying them at a person's death bed. What we'd be doing here is saying it before the (incredibly painful) treatment. I feel it's basically giving up on them coming through this. It's understandable but not really inspiring hope here.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I've already given up.