Dragon Ball: After the End

[Bakkasama]

Ok. So with Sinchronity, we actually have the advantage in a direct fight. Not only does it add +40 to our rolls but while it is active, Berra's trait that adds his Elite dueling to crowd fighting is disabled. With Vegeta as Oozaru instead of GO his PL is 750M and his speed is 375M which is a third of our own. Which means we can actually fight Berra 2 on 1 if we want. Which we probably don't since he is now tougher than us. I mean, I guess that with our speed advantage we can now check if they trained their tails. That might work.

The speed advantage we have over Oozaru can be partially neutralized by carpet bombing as Berra is showing.

Now, last time I voted for clone oozaru but that is not really feasible here because we must stay close to Jaffur so he can't buy us time on his own and Berra and Vegeta will finish their transformation before our clone does so we would be vulnerable. Charging spirit bomb is not a good option either unless we do it now because once Berra is done transforming he would have enough ki that staying locked in place will be a bad choice.

From what we see, Dandeer seems to get her visions in real time. So...

1) If we want to charge spirit bomb, it has to be now because Berra will be able to interrupt us afterwards.

2) This is a good time to search for an opening. If she needs super saiyans to physically defend her, she presumably has not set wards against physical attacks yet.

3) If we fail, next turn we might want to see about grabbing Berra's or Vegeta's tail to disable them. If Carrick's visions save Dandeer now, we definitively want to take him out.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

1) How long does each vision take?
2) How fast can we form a multiform clone?
3) Does having split affect the speed of the visions?
4) How fast can we reform from cancelling multiform?

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Visions take as long as you spend subjectively experiencing them. You multiform over the course of like a second. Vision speed is how long you spend subjectively experiencing them. You can reform instantly.

So, question: is Vegeta going Oozaru or Golden Oozaru?

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Oh, my bad! I really should have had that in the update. I'll add it in. Vegeta is going regular Oozaru, and also appears to be going berserk.

The two obvious priorities are exploring the opening and closing the gap. Assuming that with multiform we can attempt two approaches we should shout to shut down her precog and move for a decapitation strike.

-actually, that's an idea. Can Kakara literally "shout" loud enough telepathically to shut down other telepathic communications?

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Shut down, no. She can drown people out, though, assuming they aren't louder.

@PoptartProdigy, in AtE, fighters can pour their ki into their physical bodies to get increased physical abilities. Is it possible for Kakara to pour more ki into her body than is safe to gain much greater physical power at the cost of putting physical strain on her body?

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Hm. It's not so much that you're pouring ki into your muscles as it is your muscles -- and everything else in your body -- producing ki. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like kaio-ken; there's no way to overcharge muscles specifically.

And even if there was, now's not the time to be pioneering the technique, in any event.

 

[Quest]

Hmm so we're in a pretty good position compared to before actually. Best bet would be to deal with Carrick somehow and then take out Berra and Dandeer. Or we could IT next to her and kick her ass fast enough that she can't stop us even with foreknowledge and then take out Berra and Vegeta one after the other.

 

[Simon_Jester]

2) This is a good time to search for an opening. If she needs super saiyans to physically defend her, she presumably has not set wards against physical attacks yet.

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I wouldn't jump to that conclusion if I were you. She could be layering defenses in multiple layers because she really, really wants to finish this spell without interruption.

Oh, my bad! I really should have had that in the update. I'll add it in. Vegeta is going regular Oozaru, and also appears to be going berserk.

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!!!

WOO-HOO! SCORE ONE FOR CRAZY POWERBALL ANTICS!

Major debuff for Lord Vegeta, and he juuuust might be uncontrollable in this state and start trying to go all King Kong on Dandeer or Berra. Or, for that matter Yammar. If we finally catch a lucky break on-screen.

Also, achievement unlocked:

"Did she just oddball the super-saiyan out of him!?"

...

To be fair, we arguably made Berra stronger, but in this situation the 'stronger but slower' golden oozaru form is kind of a mixed bag for him, so meh. Still going to count this as a partial win.

Shut down, no. She can drown people out, though, assuming they aren't louder.

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Hm. If telepathic loudness is a function of ki power, we may be able to use that.

If I understand you correctly, a super-saiyan broadcasting AAAAAAAAA! at Dandeer at the top of her mental lung-equivalents from close range might be able to drown out telepathy coming from, say, a grouchy old Seer hundreds of miles away, preventing Dandeer from receiving those messages. Do I have that right?

Alternatively, if we get a moment to coordinate with the Senzus when they arrive, this is something they might actually be able to do to help us, because it doesn't involve directly fighting super-saiyans and would significantly de-buff Dandeer.

Hm. It's not so much that you're pouring ki into your muscles as it is your muscles -- and everything else in your body -- producing ki. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like kaio-ken; there's no way to overcharge muscles specifically.

And even if there was, now's not the time to be pioneering the technique, in any event.

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I'm pretty sure "overcharge your muscles with ki" is an element of the Ascended and Ultimate Super-Saiyan states, though those pretty clearly also boost the body's ability to produce ki, in some kind of positive feedback loop.

...

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EDIT

Oh hey, check out the invisitext on the last update:

You raise your hand overhead and form a ki sphere. Then you throw it straight at Vegeta and your father.
Deceit [Kakara vs. Berra and Vegeta]: 68 vs. 26 and 16. Success.
They both spring into action immediately, jumping in front of Dandeer and crossing their arms, tracking the sphere's flight path. You grin. "Burst open and mix!"

Their eyes have just enough time to widen in shock before the Power Ball bursts open and floods them with mutative light. They both howl in bestial tones and begin expanding.

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WOOHOO we just beat Dad in a Deceit check! When it counted!

To be fair, the fact that they both rolled that low probably means they're laboring under major penalties due to the mind control. I mean, I'd be pretty surprised if Berra doesn't have a +26 modifier to Deceit under normal conditions, and pretty surprised if Lord Vegeta doesn't have a +16 or better as well.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. Vote analysis. Of the canned options, I favor...

[ ] This cannot distract from what you're doing. Both Lords are effectively out the ability to make snap reactions, and Yammar is occupied. With both of you watching for an opening, and this coordinated, you'll find an opening. When you do, go straight for Dandeer and take her out of the fight. Whatever's happening, she is the linchpin.

A simple direct approach, capitalizing on our opponents' temporary distraction. On the other hand, it may turn out that the strength of Dandeer's magical shields, and/or the value of the tactical advice she's getting from someone (possibly Carrick) is enough to let her no-sell the attack, in which case we've wasted our time. I like it but it's got risks.

[ ??? ] Your Sight is clearer than it's ever been. Visions are coming incredibly easily, and you have far more than a paltry one a day. Vision, now.
-[ ] Specify what.

I kind of like this but don't know what to suggest.

[ ] Is now the time for a Genki Dama?! Yes! yes it is! With this spell Jaffur will be better than ever at keeping them off of you, and you have a few seconds where they're unable to interrupt at all while the two of you get ready.

This juuuust might work, I'm favorably disposed towards it. if we can do a fast charge and get only a fraction of Spirit Saiyan's power. @PoptartProdigy , can we do an accelerated lower-power version where we only borrow energy from, say, a few thousand saiyans to boot our power level up to something like four or five billion?

That'd be strong enough to overpower our opponents, so if it could be done quicker that way, we might just have a winning strategy. I like it either way, but it's less desirable if there's no way to shorten the charging time in exchange for drawing less power.

[ :| ] You don't know what's going on with Sensei Carrick, but you can't take any chances. Start contacting every Seer you can sense and order them to do anything they can to disrupt his visions since that's a thing Seers can apparently do.

Might work very very well, directly weakens Dandeer assuming we've correctly deduced that Dandeer is subverting Carrick and taking advantage of him as a source of Sight information. On the other hand, this action has no chance of actually winning the fight this round, if that's a possibility at all.

[ ] Now that people are mostly out of the Hall and out from under the line of fire, you have an opportunity. Contact Head Raditz and have him start organizing people for a fight. He'll do more good preparing a tide of angry saiyan reinforcements than any direct action.

I don't favor this option because I don't think a big saiyan army is the answer here. Too high a risk of heavy casualties, especially with a berserk oozaru on the loose.

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And now for write-in ideas:

[ ] Write-in: This cannot distract from what you're doing. Both Lords are effectively out the ability to make snap reactions, and Yammar is occupied. With both of you this coordinated, you don't need an opening. Use Instant Transmission together to get a clear shot at Dandeer and take her out of the fight. Whatever's happening, she is the linchpin.

Obvious benefits. High potential reward, especially if we can get our first shot through Dandeer's shields. High RISK if the same source of tactical advice that let Dandeer close her eyes to resist the incoming power ball gives her enough advance notice of what we're doing that she can anticipate our incoming teleport and zap us or mind-control us at close range somehow.

[ ] Write-in: Ask the incoming Senzu fighters to blanket Dandeer with sheer telepathic noise. If she's getting tactical advice from a subverted Seer, jamming her communications could take away that advantage.

This should probably be used as a subvote to something else; we don't want to sacrifice too much of our temporary tactical advantage, and the Senzus aren't here yet.

[ ] Write-in: Use your combined strength to get past Lord Berra and strike at Dandeer. He can't keep up area blasts between you and Dandeer, while changing into an oozaru, and defend himself effectively.

Potential drawbacks: Berra's probably pretty good at fighting as a golden oozaru. Wearing him down will take at least a bit of time; even with all our bonuses I don't expect him to go down easily. On the other hand, the point of this vote is more to distract or divert Berra while one of us gets off a Focus Ray or Dodonpa at Dandeer, so hopefully that will work.

Also a good news/bad news thing. The bad news is, if we're keeping Berra busy, Lord Vegeta will be free to go on a rampage in oozaru form with no one to stop him. The good news is, if we're keeping Berra busy, Vegeta is free to go on a rampage in oozaru form with no one to stop him and Dandeer is in convenient striking range.

[ ] Write-in: Use your combined strength to get past Lord Vegeta and strike at Dandeer. As a berserk regular oozaru, Vegeta is too weak, too uncontrolled, and far too slow to stop you.

This exploits the opening we created with the power ball. Berra will presumably try to interfere, but he's only one kaiju and we have a massive advantage over Vegeta in speed now, plus a very comfortable margin of superiority in power level.

 

[Bakkasama]

You know, given that Vegeta is going mindless Oozaru... what are the odds of him attacking Berra? I mean, he kind of hates him, that might translate subconsciously to the monkey. Unless the monkey still tries to protect Dandeer.

 

[KaintukeeBob]

You know, given that Vegeta is going mindless Oozaru... what are the odds of him attacking Berra? I mean, he kind of hates him, that might translate subconsciously to the monkey. Unless the monkey still tries to protect Dandeer.

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Given that the ragemonkey Vegeta is mindless, I doubt the mind control will work.

Our troubles with him will occur when he calms down from RageMonkey, finds his wife dead or arrested (likely dead), and learns he's been asleep for years while his wife usurped his power.

Also, he gets to say, "The FUCK is a Golden Oozaru?"

 

[deadcrystal]

Don't really feel like commenting on most of the update at the moment, but I do want to point out one thing.

Power Ball trick bought breathing room of a few seconds by essentially immobilising Berra and Vegeta whilst they transform.

If Kakara were to blow up the Power Ball (or just stop sustaining it if that works), then we get all of that free time again as they involuntarily detransform. Don't even have to worry about them closing their eyes, if the Power Ball goes they can't do anything to avoid getting stuck in the transformation sequence again.

 

[KaintukeeBob]

If Kakara were to blow up the Power Ball (or just stop sustaining it if that works), then we get all of that free time again as they involuntarily detransform.

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The power ball was destroyed by Berra when he started blanketing the area with blasts.

Changing back seems to be time-based, or possibly something you can choose to do if you control yourself while changed. The only way I know of to easily change someone back is to remove their tail (which I presume we don't want to do to Dad).

That said, it's a good question to draw attention to.

@PoptartProdigy - what will cause a transformed Oozaru to revert to their normal form? In the anime, Piccolo changed Gohan back by blowing up the moon. Does the destrouction of the power ball put a time limit on Berra's time as GO and Vegeta's as RageMonkey? Or can Berra (at least) sustain his form for a time?

 

[Simon_Jester]

You know, given that Vegeta is going mindless Oozaru... what are the odds of him attacking Berra? I mean, he kind of hates him, that might translate subconsciously to the monkey. Unless the monkey still tries to protect Dandeer.

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If he even recognizes Berra in Golden Oozaru form, high chance of attacking Berra.

If he has any memories whatsoever of what has been done to him (Sealing and mind control), high chance of him attacking Dandeer.

Some nontrivial chance of Vegeta attacking Yammar, because the root cause of most of Vegeta's dysfunction is his father's actions and he's got to have quite a lot of unresolved rage towards Yammar.

Low chance of Oozaru!Vegeta attacking Apra, unless something passed between Vegeta and Apra back in the day that we don't know about. Low chance of Oozaru!Vegeta spontaneously attacking us if we don't provoke him. Frightening possibility of Vegeta randomly blasting the fleeing saiyans in the distance with mouth blast artillery or the like; we can only hope that doesn't happen.

Don't really feel like commenting on most of the update at the moment, but I do want to point out one thing.

Power Ball trick bought breathing room of a few seconds by essentially immobilising Berra and Vegeta whilst they transform.

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It also weakened Vegeta dramatically, cutting his power level to 2/3 of its former value, his speed to 1/3 of its former value (or less), and causing him to go berserk. Since he hates or has reason to hate literally everyone on Team Dandeer more than he has reason to hate anyone on Team Not Fighting For Dandeer, this may work to our advantage.

If Kakara were to blow up the Power Ball (or just stop sustaining it if that works), then we get all of that free time again as they involuntarily detransform. Don't even have to worry about them closing their eyes, if the Power Ball goes they can't do anything to avoid getting stuck in the transformation sequence again.

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The effects of a destroyed power ball seem to linger for at least a limited time, so it'd be a while before they de-transform. Plus, they'd detransform into super-saiyans, which might present problems.

The power ball was destroyed by Berra when he started blanketing the area with blasts.

Changing back seems to be time-based, or possibly something you can choose to do if you control yourself while changed. The only way I know of to easily change someone back is to remove their tail (which I presume we don't want to do to Dad).

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We don't want to but if we have to we should go ahead and do it. If nothing else, the Senzus have literally got more beans than they know what to do with, so we can probably grow his tail back after all this is over.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

If I understand you correctly, a super-saiyan broadcasting AAAAAAAAA! at Dandeer at the top of her mental lung-equivalents from close range might be able to drown out telepathy coming from, say, a grouchy old Seer hundreds of miles away, preventing Dandeer from receiving those messages. Do I have that right?

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Almost certainly, unless strange fuckery is at play. Even then, it'd have to be strange fuckery indeed, given that nobody of Kakara's acquaintance is actually aware of such a thing existing.

This juuuust might work, I'm favorably disposed towards it. if we can do a fast charge and get only a fraction of Spirit Saiyan's power. @PoptartProdigy , can we do an accelerated lower-power version where we only borrow energy from, say, a few thousand saiyans to boot our power level up to something like four or five billion?

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Easily. In practice, Kakara will shoot for a balance between the most possible charge in order to win swiftly, and the least possible charge time to avoid Jaffur having to pull escort duty for too long. The players may write in a given value in particular, if they care to do so.

@PoptartProdigy - what will cause a transformed Oozaru to revert to their normal form? In the anime, Piccolo changed Gohan back by blowing up the moon. Does the destrouction of the power ball put a time limit on Berra's time as GO and Vegeta's as RageMonkey? Or can Berra (at least) sustain his form for a time?

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Depends. Trained oozaru can pop the ball as soon as they start to transform, and maintain it afterwards for as long as they like. Untrained oozaru generally lose it once the source is removed. That said, the Power Ball delivers a much more concentrated dose, and its effects sometimes linger. Given that Vegeta is continuing to transform, it would seem that this is one of those cases.

He'll be reverting soon, though.

 

[Cariyaga]

Out of curiousity, does Kakara get the impression that Synchronicity could be used out of combat? It strikes me as...

Um. Very useful for therapy reasons, and for helping understand others in general.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Out of curiousity, does Kakara get the impression that Synchronicity could be used out of combat? It strikes me as...

Um. Very useful for therapy reasons, and for helping understand others in general.

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Kakara has no earthly clue how or if Jaffur's jury-rigged teamwork spell works outside of combat, but she suspects that there's no reason it wouldn't.

 

[Cariyaga]

I really hope this goes well. I'd love to have Kakara tutor Jaffur in people and Jaffur tutor Kakara in magic, with both sparring intermittently. Sounds like great fun.

 

[KaintukeeBob]

H'okay.

Seconds count at this point, so I think it would be a waste to go for Spirit Saiyan now. Maybe when Vegeta starts changing back we can.

I honestly think trying to overwhelm Dandeer's ability to receive telepathic communications while fighting our way to her is the way to go. Maybe we can IT both Jaffur and ourselves behind her, use telepathy to send her every dark vision Jaffur has had of what he'd do to her once freed, and pummel the crap out of her?

@PoptartProdigy would that be too much for one vote? I know we have a short amount of time and a finite amount of concentration.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

H'okay.

Seconds count at this point, so I think it would be a waste to go for Spirit Saiyan now. Maybe when Vegeta starts changing back we can.

I honestly think trying to overwhelm Dandeer's ability to receive telepathic communications while fighting our way to her is the way to go. Maybe we can IT both Jaffur and ourselves behind her, use telepathy to send her every dark vision Jaffur has had of what he'd do to her once freed, and pummel the crap out of her?

@PoptartProdigy would that be too much for one vote? I know we have a short amount of time and a finite amount of concentration.

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Up to you. Depends on how attention-intensive that kind of broadcast would be, which comes down to Jaffur's ability to channel it without getting caught up in it.

 

[Quest]

Up to you. Depends on how attention-intensive that kind of broadcast would be, which comes down to Jaffur's ability to channel it without getting caught up in it.

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Does Jaffur think he can use Sorcery through our Visions? That seems like a quick and easy way to disrupt Carrick and/or target Dandeer.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Does Jaffur think he can use Sorcery through our Visions? That seems like a quick and easy way to disrupt Carrick and/or target Dandeer.

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Unknown; depends on if spell-shared awareness counts as line-of-sight. At the moment, you are aware of all of the contents of the sense data he gathers, but do not directly experience it. That may be the crucial bit keeping a Sight-targeted spell from working, or it may be good enough. You're in uncharted territory, here.

Also worth noting that Jaffur does not have a wealth of combat magic, at this point in time.

 

[Cariyaga]

Unknown; depends on if spell-shared awareness counts as line-of-sight. At the moment, you are aware of all of the contents of the sense data he gathers, but do not directly experience it. That may be the crucial bit keeping a Sight-targeted spell from working, or it may be good enough. You're in uncharted territory, here.

Also worth noting that Jaffur does not have a wealth of combat magic, at this point in time.

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If we put him in direct contest with Dandeer's spells, could he burn them out through Ki-empowered magic?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

If we put him in direct contest with Dandeer's spells, could he burn them out through Ki-empowered magic?

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If he manages to get a spell off, Dandeer will be pretty well incapable of contesting it directly. The issue is that she's nigh-infinitely better than him and might find clever workarounds.

 

[QTesseract]

The thing is this just reenforces the sheer superiority of magic, if it can get around a master seer like that. It is extremely frustrating.

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Sight gives us Precognition. That's like, the #1 broken power in fiction, plus it gives us distance viewing, past sight, the ability to speak with the dead, and power disabling. Outside of the dragon balls and fusion, nothing we've seen with magic is honestly as impressive as seer powers, and it only makes up for it with breadth. Ki still trumps both as well (teleportation, super speed, super fast thinking, super strength, flight, beams, multiple places at once, mind shields, shattering magic, better combat abilities in general).

Also a possibility, albeit one that makes me dislike her and this arc even more.

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Speaking personally, if she wasn't at least this strong, she wouldn't have been much of an antagonist for us. My personal bet is that even with these defenses we'll have taken out dandeer in seconds, and certainly under a minute.

Okay, so a long time ago Poptart was talking about what would have happened if Kakara had gotten both Sorcery and the Sight. One of things that came up was that Sorcerers can cast sorcery on places they can see and that yes it stacks with Sight Vision. We even had discussions of fusing with Jaffur to take advantage of that.

I'm wondering that if Jaffur shares our awareness, can we just See Dandeer and magic her directly? Without having to go through the monkey-squad.

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Fusion dance would be great here, and is somethign I rlly want to see utilized more in fanfics or the like, but I'm honestly kinda worried about what that would mean for the quest. Fusion Dance is just about the most overpowered skill ever (it let two rookie Super Saiyans pass SSj3 Goku in, like, a week or two, plus seems to increase ki skill to the point they can invent techniques on the fly), and we have WoG on how OP sight + Magic is.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Fusion dance would be great here, and is somethign I rlly want to see utilized more in fanfics or the like, but I'm honestly kinda worried about what that would mean for the quest. Fusion Dance is just about the most overpowered skill ever (it let two rookie Super Saiyans pass SSj3 Goku in, like, a week or two, plus seems to increase ki skill to the point they can invent techniques on the fly), and we have WoG on how OP sight + Magic is.

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We can't use Fusion Dance for the same reason wr can't go SSJ2 - the combined PL would be way too high. If we're ever in a position to use it, the Quest will have shifted gears.

 

[QTesseract]

We can't use Fusion Dance for the same reason wr can't go SSJ2 - the combined PL would be way too high. If we're ever in a position to use it, the Quest will have shifted gears.

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To the best of my knowledge, Fusion dance can be set to arbitrary lower power levels, since the strength of the fusion depends on how high your ki is (suppression counts, apparently, since they have to have identical power levels on fusion but people at different strength can fuse), and we could almost certainly supress more if we didnt shatter the wards instantly. We know non super saiyans have experimented with fusion (though it didnt work without the instruction we hope to get), and I don't think that would have happened if they though pl x million fusion dance would shatter the wards? Might not be the best thing to try in combat though, especially if we end up undershooting instead and get beaten down.

 

[Akiri]

So... Kakara effortlessly swept Lord Vegeta off the game board with a cantrip, as a happy side effect of a plan she thought up in a few seconds.

If Jaffur wasn't ragecrushing on us before...

 

[Aranfan]

We should team up on Berra while he is distracted transforming, then once we've taken him off the board take out dandeer while Vegeta is busying with going berserk.