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The thing is this just reenforces the sheer superiority of magic, if it can get around a master seer like that. It is extremely frustrating.
And it reinforces the superiority of ki that a ki fighter can ever beat a sorcerer, and in turn the superiority of magic that a sorcerer can ever beat a ki fighter.

Or, put another way, nothing is unbeatable.
 
Seriously, I know you like the character, but House Balor's entire schtick is being revolutionary republicans principally opposed to the entire clan and lord system and this is the guy who picked the scion at birth by threatening to murder the reigning lord and his wife based on criteria he has never explained.

"Dandeer mindhacked him" really isn't the only explanation here.
 
The thing is this just reenforces the sheer superiority of magic, if it can get around a master seer like that. It is extremely frustrating.
Alternatively, it's like asking "if the greatest judo expert on the planet fought the greatest karate expert on the planet, who would win?"

No one ever promised us that Sight would be strictly superior to magic, or vice versa.
 
Seriously, I know you like the character, but House Balor's entire schtick is being revolutionary republicans principally opposed to the entire clan and lord system and this is the guy who picked the scion at birth by threatening to murder the reigning lord and his wife based on criteria he has never explained.

"Dandeer mindhacked him" really isn't the only explanation here.
Fair enough.
Alternatively, it's like asking "if the greatest judo expert on the planet fought the greatest karate expert on the planet, who would win?"

No one ever promised us that Sight would be strictly superior to magic, or vice versa.
Yeah, one isn't necessarily better than the other, but Dandeer has subverted so many people!e that it certainly seems that magic is op in this verse.
 
Alternatively, Dandeer is just personally proportionately more skillful...
Also a possibility, albeit one that makes me dislike her and this arc even more.

One more thing I feel that I have to point out: Berra is on his way to Golden Great Ape, which is as powerful as SSJ2. This time we don't have literally every mage on the planet cooperating to contain the signal. We will be lucky to have a single round before the wards pop like soap bubbles and the Doom Countdown starts just as if Kakara had hit SSJ2.

Multiform, do something to stop her precog feed, and put her down RFN.

Also, this is a salient point. We absolutely need to put Berra down hard, now.
 
If Dandeer had foreseen all of this from that far in the future, she'd have taken precautions to entirely pre-empt it. Say, by enhancing the seals on Jaffur.

I think she must be getting the information in real time, or nearly so.

Fair, though she might have gotten a (somewhat) comprehensive infodump at the start of this particular conflict rather than being in the process of getting real-time updates. Which still shifts our strategy away from "stop her from getting updates" and toward "stop her infodump from having been accurate."
Also, we supposedly have a mind-shield strong enough to keep Dazarel out, and I suspect that while Dandeer may be more powerful and versatile in some surprising ways, Dazarel is almost certainly better at mind reading because psionics is his hat. Or was before we took that power away from him forever and chibified him. :p

Assuming we still have that active (which we presumably should) then yeah, odds are good that Jaffur's the only one she could have mental hooks in (since Apra was also able to keep out Dazarel, IIRC, whereas I don't know if Jaffur has received any of the relevant training).
One more thing I feel that I have to point out: Berra is on his way to Golden Great Ape, which is as powerful as SSJ2. This time we don't have literally every mage on the planet cooperating to contain the signal. We will be lucky to have a single round before the wards pop like soap bubbles and the Doom Countdown starts just as if Kakara had hit SSJ2.

Wait, I admit my memory isn't perfect here, but hasn't Kakara been able to train Golden Oozaru somehow or other without exploding the wards? I don't remember exactly what happened with that but I don't think it involved all the sorcerers on constant shielding duty at all times. That was present for the Dazarel fight but that got a lot heavier-duty than just one Golden Oozaru hanging around.
Also a possibility, albeit one that makes me dislike her and this arc even more.

Out of curiosity, why does having a major arc villain be a skilled and competent individual make you dislike the resulting narrative? I can understand personal dislike for a talented foe, but it seems only narratively fitting that we should face opposition of significant power, considering our own extremely impressive capabilities & accomplishments.
 
Lets ask yammar, vegeta and berra about that.
Vegeta married the sorceress, then beat her regularly. Too dumb to live.

Yammar and Berra committed classic blunders straight off the Evil Overlord List:

Rule #6: I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.

Rule #7: When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."

Rule #40: I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve.

Rule #78: I will not tell my Legions of Terror "And he must be taken alive!" The command will be "And try to take him alive if it is reasonably practical."
 
Strangely enough, pointing out a case of people losing does not invalidate the idea that nothing is unbeatable. Who knew?
Three of the strongest fighters on the planet are now slaves because they let their guard down, saying that sorcerors can be beaten does not reassure me that we will consistently have a chance to beat them rather than waking up on day restrained as they cast a spell. I would prefer not to have constant paranoia that Kakara's trustworthy friends might let their guard down around the wrong person and now can no longer be trusted.

You cannot beat an opponent that you cannot detect before it strikes.
 
Both Lords are in the middle of going Oozaru, and are effectively incapable of making snap reactions for the duration of this vote, after which they will be able to act as normal. Berra, recognizing this, has begun nuking the air between you and Dandeer to deny you passage.
Is this not the perfect moment to IT on top of her? The other SSJs can't respond, and he can't be nuking her directly.
 
Is this not the perfect moment to IT on top of her? The other SSJs can't respond, and he can't be nuking her directly.

Possible complications:

1) Dandeer may have sufficient personal wards that Berra can nuke her directly, though as this would require her to have higher durability than FPSSJ Kakara (otherwise the blast wouldn't affect us either), it can be regarded as something of a stretch. Still, bear in mind that we have very limited knowledge of magic's exact capabilities.

2) More pressingly, Dandeer apparently has some way to foresee our moves. I don't know that she has any effective response to us suddenly jumping on her with IT, but I don't know that she doesn't have such a response available, and whatever it is current circumstances would allow her to bring it to bear. I'd be a lot more comfortable if we could find a way to block or circumvent her prediction abilities before going for the finish.
 
2) More pressingly, Dandeer apparently has some way to foresee our moves. I don't know that she has any effective response to us suddenly jumping on her with IT, but I don't know that she doesn't have such a response available, and whatever it is current circumstances would allow her to bring it to bear. I'd be a lot more comfortable if we could find a way to block or circumvent her prediction abilities before going for the finish.
She didn't see this whole event coming. Our last gambit was something she could stop because all she had to do was close her eyes. If she wants to stop our IT gambit that requires something a lot more concentration, concentration she can't spare without interrupting her current work.

EDIT: Could we use our Sight to get the secret to Fusion Dance from the Ancestors? With Jaffur's magic thing we could easily pull it off if we just knew the actual dance.
 
She didn't see this whole event coming. Our last gambit was something she could stop because all she had to do was close her eyes. If she wants to stop our IT gambit that requires something a lot more concentration, concentration she can't spare without interrupting her current work.

Hrm. That is a good point. Even if all we do is force her to react dramatically, it should disrupt whatever spell she's casting. My only worry is that she'll use our approach to try and cast some disabling spell on us - if we're taken out of the fight entirely, she can just restart her ritual and proceed unhindered. Maybe for security we should IT for a clear line of fire some distance away, then just blast her? That makes it easier to evade us, though, since she'd just have to dodge until one of the Oozaru could get in the way. Plus it would probably make a nonlethal resolution harder. Tricky, tricky...I suppose trying to jump on top of her might be worth the risk. Hard to say.
 
Let's do it, and let's also do my spiritual pressure thing at the same time just in case something goes wrong/to prevent Dandeer from making something go wrong.
Might have trouble inventing a new move within a few seconds.
Possible complications:

1) Dandeer may have sufficient personal wards that Berra can nuke her directly, though as this would require her to have higher durability than FPSSJ Kakara (otherwise the blast wouldn't affect us either), it can be regarded as something of a stretch. Still, bear in mind that we have very limited knowledge of magic's exact capabilities.

2) More pressingly, Dandeer apparently has some way to foresee our moves. I don't know that she has any effective response to us suddenly jumping on her with IT, but I don't know that she doesn't have such a response available, and whatever it is current circumstances would allow her to bring it to bear. I'd be a lot more comfortable if we could find a way to block or circumvent her prediction abilities before going for the finish.
I don't think Dandeer has shown any indication that her skills let her survive SSJ combat - that's why she's subverted others to do it for her.

Dandeer seeing us coming is a possible problem, but equally this is an extremely limited window of opportunity. Even if she does react and counter our attack, she 1) doesn't have any triggers in us like she did Berra and Yammar, and 2) would have to disrupt whatever spell she's casting to do so herself. Given that her spell is our only time pressure and in all other ways time favours us (gives allies time to arrive, lets us deal with this apparent Carrick subversion) that's still a net win for us.

Aside from anything else though, we've jumped to Seer intervention quite quickly - even if Carrick's subverted, it seems more likely that the master mind sorcerer is able to hear our telepathy, and heard our warning. Does Jaffur have mental defences? Do we have better defences than our ghetto defence we threw together fighting Dazarel? Is telepathy just inherently insecure around Dandeer?

I vote all future communications are done through Synchronicity and not telepathy.
 
Well, if we want to call for help (say, from seers or Dandelor), we've got to use telepathy anyway. Based on what Poptart has said about how telepathy works, I'm actually pretty sure that Dandeer ISN'T reading our telepathic mail. You're right to worry about Jaffur's mental defenses. On the other hand, Dandeer didn't know Jaffur was even going to be a thing she had to think about until a very short time ago. She hasn't had time to set up any 'wiretapping' in Jaffur's telepathic communications.

...

Let's see... The option of teleporting straight to Dandeer while the Lords are partly incapacitated, which is being discussed, is basically a variation on:

[ ] This cannot distract from what you're doing. Both Lords are effectively out the ability to make snap reactions, and Yammar is occupied. With both of you watching for an opening, and this coordinated, you'll find an opening. When you do, go straight for Dandeer and take her out of the fight. Whatever's happening, she is the linchpin.

That's actually one of the canned options. We could perhaps modify it into

[ ] Write-in: This cannot distract from what you're doing. Both Lords are effectively out the ability to make snap reactions, and Yammar is occupied. With both of you this coordinated, you don't need an opening. Use Instant Transmission together to get a clear shot at Dandeer and take her out of the fight. Whatever's happening, she is the linchpin.

Other possibilities:

The canned option:

[ ] Is now the time for a Genki Dama?! Yes! yes it is! With this spell Jaffur will be better than ever at keeping them off of you, and you have a few seconds where they're unable to interrupt at all while the two of you get ready.

We may not need very long to charge up enough of a Spirit Saiyan boost that Berra and Lord Vegeta cannot meaningfully resist us. A few thousand Exiles combined and we're at an effective power level of three to four billion, at which point we can blow right past them and probably crack Dandeer's shields.

Another canned option:

[ ] You don't know what's going on with Sensei Carrick, but you can't take any chances. Start contacting every Seer you can sense and order them to do anything they can to disrupt his visions since that's a thing Seers can apparently do.

This may nullify Dandeer's ability to pre-empt our moves, which would be a very useful thing to do. If we can disrupt Dandeer's access to prescient knowledge about our attacks, we're far more likely to succeed in any gambits involving Instant Transmission.

Other possibilities:

[ ] Write-in: Use your combined strength to get past Lord Berra and strike at Dandeer. He can't keep up area blasts between you and Dandeer, while changing into an oozaru, and defend himself effectively.

Potential drawbacks: Berra's probably pretty good at fighting as a golden oozaru, and while his absurd Dueling bonuses are now partially neutralized, he DOES have a special trait that gives him part of his Dueling bonus even to Crowd Fighting as I recall.

[ ] Write-in: Use your combined strength to get past Lord Vegeta and strike at Dandeer. Vegeta may be transforming into a regular oozaru- if so, he's too weak and far too slow to block you effectively. Even if he isn't, well, Jaffur's been waiting for this for a looong time.

Potential drawbacks: Lord Vegeta is a master of Vegeta Style, so he DOES have Crowd Fighting which is the direct mechanical counter to Team Fighting. While Vegeta Style is weaker at close range and vulnerable to close-up confrontation, it's more effective at ranged combat, and if we're trying to get PAST Lord Vegeta instead of getting all up in his giant child-abusing apeface, it's ranged combat we're going to have to worry about.

Also, canned options including visions: we'd have to write in a vision, preferably Present Sight, and I don't know what it should be.
 
Might have trouble inventing a new move within a few seconds.
You should've read my post more closely.
The physical effects can be done already, once you try it out. Kakara will now use the physical-only version in combat, when she feels it appropriate.
It's something that Kakara can already do.

My only worry is that she'll use our approach to try and cast some disabling spell on us - if we're taken out of the fight entirely, she can just restart her ritual and proceed unhindered.
We've got Jaffur's magic thing so if she tries anything on us she has to deal with not only our own immediate countermeasures, but also Jaffur's.
 
What about pressure waves? Dandeer is much lower in powerlevel than everyone else present so a ki explosion might be able to generate a pressure wave strong enough to at least damage her inner ears.

Bonus points in that as a pressure wave berra shielding her with his body won't actually do much, he'd need to create a bubble shield to stop the differential from just going around.
 
What about pressure waves? Dandeer is much lower in powerlevel than everyone else present so a ki explosion might be able to generate a pressure wave strong enough to at least damage her inner ears.

Bonus points in that as a pressure wave berra shielding her with his body won't actually do much, he'd need to create a bubble shield to stop the differential from just going around.
She probably has warding shields good enough that blast effect from being near a ki explosion isn't going to hurt her very much.

I'm more concerned about everyone around that should be transforming right now. Iirc we're in the shelter with just about all the saiyans around...
Poptart said that all the other saiyans are (sensibly) fleeing the Royal Grudge Match and were looking away when the power ball went off. Since the power ball is probably gone now, or can be dismissed by us easily, I suspect the danger is over.
 
Okay, so a long time ago Poptart was talking about what would have happened if Kakara had gotten both Sorcery and the Sight. One of things that came up was that Sorcerers can cast sorcery on places they can see and that yes it stacks with Sight Vision. We even had discussions of fusing with Jaffur to take advantage of that.

I'm wondering that if Jaffur shares our awareness, can we just See Dandeer and magic her directly? Without having to go through the monkey-squad.
 
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