Actually, another question: why the fuck aren't we being mc'ed. Dandeer has three subverted SS, she could have simply had Berra hold us down while we were asleep or something.
Dragon Ball: After the End
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, this is important. If Dandeer can see our moves coming somehow, we need to figure out how at a minimum, and preferably stop it. If we can work out the mechanism, though, that may also offer workarounds that don't require shutting it down entirely.
So, possible explanations, as I see them:
1a) Dandeer is receiving precog information from a Seer. This aligns with our new suspicions regarding Sensei Carrick, but we still lack conclusive evidence, so considering other possibilities seems wise.
1b) Dandeer has already at some point in the past received such information (in sufficient detail to know the specific timing of the Power Ball).
2) Dandeer is reading our thoughts, or those of someone else aware of our plan (i.e. Jaffur and/or Apra).
3) Dandeer is capable of intercepting telepathic communications in some way.
If (1a) is the case, then disrupting her Seer ally's visions (presumably, but not necessarily, Carrick) would work to resolve the issue. Alternatively, we could work to disrupt whatever method of communication they are using.
If (1b) is the case, however, both these approaches are pointless - instead, we should work to change the future as far as possible from what she would have had foreseen for her. This would, if I understand correctly, be best achieved by using visions of our own.
If (2) is the case, then we simply need to locate and purge her magic from the relevant mind(s). That would be pretty much entirely Jaffur's job, & I'm not sure of what specific actions we could/should take in that direction.
If (3) is the case, then the solution is easy: avoid using telepathy. This logically leads to the question of whether she can eavesdrop on our Synchronicity communications with Jaffur, because if not, her advantage is basically gone (though we would have to avoid talking to Apra about anything meant to be surprising). If so, on the other hand, she'll be receiving a deeply alarming amount of information (presumably complete with non-overload filters) about our thoughts and actions - in that case, advantages notwithstanding, we'd likely have to terminate our connection with Jaffur as soon as possible. I'm not sure how to reason or discern which of these is the case, though, even assuming eavesdropping is her prediction mechanism (already an outside chance).
Thoughts?
We don't actually sleep that much.
1c) Dandeer is a Seer herself.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Oh hell yes, let's do it!
Incidentally... Kakara has never talked about this effect to anyone. Did we ever get a name for it?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
No, because in that case, this conspiracy would never have gotten off the ground at all. Dandeer pretty obviously didn't WANT Jaffur to wind up un-Sealed like this.
Dandeer doesn't know all our secrets. If she did, we would never have gotten this far. Don't run around letting your salt overwhelm your thinking.
On the other hand, Golden Oozaru isn't a secret, as you well know, because the royals used it to fight Dazarel and Dandeer was there at the time.
The reason we inferred that Lord Vegeta might not be able to use the form is because he was Sealed before the form was discovered, and because it seems fairly likely Dandeer doesn't routinely uncork Lord Vegeta and keep him briefed on events. That's still true, so there's still reason to speculate that even if Golden Oozaru is common knowledge, Vegeta Vegeta may wind up as a normal, relatively low-power oozaru instead.
That's the trouble with Dandeer being a mind control witch; depriving other people of their agency is her whole schtick.
I feel like part of the problem is that we thought we could, with a few successful social maneuvers early on, set up a conspiracy so powerful it would trivialize this encounter. A lot of us seemed to expect this encounter to be trivial.
While I don't think it's our fault we didn't do this, we really, really did not take the kind of extensive precautions I would normally want to take to be sure our resources hadn't been subverted. There were reasons for this, but I can't shake the feeling that an adult Kakara who seriously wanted the conspiracy to succeed would have taken a lot more actions to figure out what Dandeer might be doing and counter it. I'm quite sure Dandeer, by analogy, spent lots of actions cementing her power.
Now, there are quest-structural reasons why we didn't do this.
For one, it is (for now) a child protagonist quest. There's an implicit assumption that adults are competent and know what they're doing and can cover for the child protagonist's blind spots. Now, magic and intrigue are two of Kakara's blind spots, being as how she's a social/fighty build. It looks like Apra and Yammar DID adequately cover the intrigue angle (in that the conspiracy was established, Berra and apparently Dandeer didn't find out)... But we really, really were wide open on the magic angle relative to the strength of our opponent, Dandeer. Part of the problem there is that the magic advisor we were depending on for the plot is forced into seclusion and can't publicly be seen going around scanning people for spells. That may have really bitten us on the ass.
For another, as I've noted, the structure of voting, both in the turn-action period and the recent priority-voting era, did not lend itself to "carry out laundry list of precautions to make sure Dandeer hasn't bewitched key people we're counting on." votes. They would have been complex plan votes, p
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
That's disingenuous, there is a large difference between some resistance and having over half of the senior members of the conspiracy suddenly turn on us. the same senior members we were trusting at least slightly to be planning for dandeer's defenses.
- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy, in AtE, fighters can pour their ki into their physical bodies to get increased physical abilities. Is it possible for Kakara to pour more ki into her body than is safe to gain much greater physical power at the cost of putting physical strain on her body?
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
it's called Kaioken
There is also the fact that at least at the beginning we did not know that she was capable of direct mind control at all: all we had seen her do was sealing.No, because in that case, this conspiracy would never have gotten off the ground at all. Dandeer pretty obviously didn't WANT Jaffur to wind up un-Sealed like this.
Dandeer doesn't know all our secrets. If she did, we would never have gotten this far. Don't run around letting your salt overwhelm your thinking.
On the other hand, Golden Oozaru isn't a secret, as you well know, because the royals used it to fight Dazarel and Dandeer was there at the time.
The reason we inferred that Lord Vegeta might not be able to use the form is because he was Sealed before the form was discovered, and because it seems fairly likely Dandeer doesn't routinely uncork Lord Vegeta and keep him briefed on events. That's still true, so there's still reason to speculate that even if Golden Oozaru is common knowledge, Vegeta Vegeta may wind up as a normal, relatively low-power oozaru instead.
That's the trouble with Dandeer being a mind control witch; depriving other people of their agency is her whole schtick.
I feel like part of the problem is that we thought we could, with a few successful social maneuvers early on, set up a conspiracy so powerful it would trivialize this encounter. A lot of us seemed to expect this encounter to be trivial.
While I don't think it's our fault we didn't do this, we really, really did not take the kind of extensive precautions I would normally want to take to be sure our resources hadn't been subverted. There were reasons for this, but I can't shake the feeling that an adult Kakara who seriously wanted the conspiracy to succeed would have taken a lot more actions to figure out what Dandeer might be doing and counter it. I'm quite sure Dandeer, by analogy, spent lots of actions cementing her power.
Now, there are quest-structural reasons why we didn't do this.
For one, it is (for now) a child protagonist quest. There's an implicit assumption that adults are competent and know what they're doing and can cover for the child protagonist's blind spots. Now, magic and intrigue are two of Kakara's blind spots, being as how she's a social/fighty build. It looks like Apra and Yammar DID adequately cover the intrigue angle (in that the conspiracy was established, Berra and apparently Dandeer didn't find out)... But we really, really were wide open on the magic angle relative to the strength of our opponent, Dandeer. Part of the problem there is that the magic advisor we were depending on for the plot is forced into seclusion and can't publicly be seen going around scanning people for spells. That may have really bitten us on the ass.
For another, as I've noted, the structure of voting, both in the turn-action period and the recent priority-voting era, did not lend itself to "carry out laundry list of precautions to make sure Dandeer hasn't bewitched key people we're counting on." votes. They would have been complex plan votes, p
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Possible answer:
Dandeer's mind control spells are triggered contingencies she doesn't want to use, because once she uses them she has no easy way back. The 'cleanup' after an event like this will be massive, even if she wins, and she may not be able to permanently enslave all the royals. If she thought she could I suspect she'd try, but I don't think she knows if she can. The cautionary tale of Majin Vegeta may be instructive to her.
True and plausible.
If Dandeer had foreseen all of this from that far in the future, she'd have taken precautions to entirely pre-empt it. Say, by enhancing the seals on Jaffur.
I think she must be getting the information in real time, or nearly so.
Maybe Dandelor has some friendly sorcerors on speed-dial who can do this?
Also, we supposedly have a mind-shield strong enough to keep Dazarel out, and I suspect that while Dandeer may be more powerful and versatile in some surprising ways, Dazarel is almost certainly better at mind reading because psionics is his hat. Or was before we took that power away from him forever and chibified him.
- Location
- Australia
No.
I suggested one but PP made no decision.
That's not Kaioken. Kaioken multiplies how much ki you output, whereas what I'm describing just puts more of the ki you're already outputting into your muscles. The thing I'm describing wouldn't make Kakara's energy attacks any more powerful, unlike Kaioken.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
You're assuming this isn't a variant of the seal put on Vegeta and Jaffur, except creating another saiyan persona rather than a human.
Except they clearly aren't because of the spell clouding everyone's minds. Like, if she has to she could do exactly the same thing except with the clan heads rather than sorcerers.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Knowing what 'disingenuous' means, I'm going to ask that you take back your use of that word.
It's a lie, and I don't appreciate it.
Seals subtract; they don't add. Moreover, training a masqued persona takes considerable time to get up to anywhere near full strength, and if Lord Vegeta were below full strength we'd have noticed. It's far more likely that she simply had a contingency where she dismisses her forcible-Masquing seal on Lord Vegeta, and mind-whammies him hard enough (i.e. Seals away his resistance to suggestions) to act in a mind-controlled fashion.
That's true, but (and again I am NOT blaming we-the-voters for this, it was in large part a problem of quest structure)...
...We didn't really investigate what-all Dandeer could do, nor did we stay in close contact with our resident expert, Dandelor. We were relying heavily on Apra and Yammar to not only organize the political side of the conspiracy, but to do a lot of the rest of the heavy lifting, with the effect that if the adults had actually done everything we implicitly expected them to do, including our recruitment of the Seers, it would have trivialized the task of actually finishing Dandeer off.
The only way this was ever going to be a challenge was if Dandeer surprised us by having subverted some or all of the powerful assets we thought we had in play.
...
[And this part arguably is our fault in that we should learn from the mistake]
We even kind of took that for granted, as demonstrated when we didn't go Spirit Saiyan during the time at the Senzus' manor. We were implicitly assuming that attending to Jaffur/Jaron's emotional state was a higher priority than increasing our own power to overcome obstacles in our path.
This assumption was, to put it mildly, mistaken, because we greatly overestimated our own reliable resources and underestimated what Dandeer could bring to her side.
Yeah, I don't think I was voting at the time, but I know that my assumption was that a basic precaution for a secret conspiracy, especially when you wizard is already aware of your opponent's staggering mc, would be to check to see if anyone had listening spells on on them at the very least.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
My mistake you were mischaracterising objections, i apologise for saying it was deliberate.
Well, there's another problem there: he might have and not remembered it.
When we're dealing with a mind mage who has shown the ability to make evidence of her actions impossible to piece together/remember, after all.
Instead of contacting seers to disrupt Carrick visions, we contact the nearest Saiyan or his niece Cynthia to knock him out. On the second thought there might be a high chance of her controlling a group of seers to chain visions, not sure if Carrick can maintain that tempo by himself.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes. On the other hand, we never asked about it in-character (which I re-repeat has a lot to do with quest design and isn't just 'lol players stupid').
And had we known more about magic, we might well have realized things like "Maybe Dandelor can't personally check everyone involved because he's in deep-cover hiding. Maybe Dandelor can't check the royals because it would require the royals, who are sometimes being watched, to disappear for extended periods. Maybe we need to take more precautions, recruit some Gokun sorcerors, do something other than just assume the adults have it totally under control and Dandeer can't slip this one past them."
I mean, I agree that these are basic precautions. It's just that by tacitly assuming that the precautions would get taken without our active involvement, we resigned ourselves to a situation in which the success or failure of those precautions was decided entirely by rolls behind Poptart's QM screen.
We clearly succeeded in at least some respects, because Dandeer didn't just straight-up pre-empt our entire effort. Which she could probably have done with this level of resources if she'd known specifically that we were plotting to un-Seal Jaffur.
But we also failed some of those behind-the-scenes die rolls.
[shrug]
I mean, the point I'm trying to make is, we kind of assumed that the level of precautions taken by our adult allies was great enough that Dandeer would be effectively unable to seriously disrupt the outcome. Sure, she might do something exciting like mind-control Berra or whatever, but she'd ultimately go down pretty easily. That she wouldn't be able to put up a defense capable of stopping us, and wouldn't be able to neutralize enoug of our advantages to get a chance.
See, the thing is, I was there for a lot of these debates and frankly we were not expecting Dandeer to put up anywhere near this much of a fight.
I'm not saying "oh, people are just butthurt that Dandeer is putting up a serious, challenging fight."
I'm saying "people are surprised and taken aback in large part because we assumed that she couldn't put up a fight against the combination of forces we were bringing to bear. Like, they honestly thought Dandeer could not in fact do that."
I'm hoping Dandeer hasn't been able to casually spam "you don't remember that" enchantments, being as how they have to affect everybody and the only one we know Dandeer did was part of a huge, set-piece ritual.
Dandelor, now, WAS able to fire off one of those on short notice, but on the other hand it's likely to have been one he pre-prepared precisely because he knew he'd need (as a contingency) a way to eliminate the problem of "OH SHIT THE MASS MURDERING PSYCHOTIC WITCH KNOWS WHERE I LIVE."
One more thing I feel that I have to point out: Berra is on his way to Golden Great Ape, which is as powerful as SSJ2. This time we don't have literally every mage on the planet cooperating to contain the signal. We will be lucky to have a single round before the wards pop like soap bubbles and the Doom Countdown starts just as if Kakara had hit SSJ2.
Multiform, do something to stop her precog feed, and put her down RFN.
Multiform, do something to stop her precog feed, and put her down RFN.
Doesn't have to be casually. But done in a few key areas, such as the most prominent Seer, and the Super Saiyans would make sense.
Which kind of leads to the question of why didn't the master seer see it coming.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
On the other hand, those are probably the people with the highest saving throw bonuses, so it may well be that setting up the spell to affect even them is precisely the problem that normally requires careful setup. We don't know enough about how magic works to know whether it's easier to brainwash a thousand ordinary people or one extraordinarily stubborn person.
I don't know but we shouldn't just axiomatically claim that it should be impossible.
You're assuming that he isn't cooperating voluntarily. He is a member of a notoriously rebellious house.
The thing is this just reenforces the sheer superiority of magic, if it can get around a master seer like that. It is extremely frustrating.