That's not going to be few turns, it's going to be several. And keeping our best martial out of action for a minimum of 4, and likely at least 6 (SSN and apartment might be single actions, the other two are certainty not) is a terrible idea.
I think we should do a minimum and get him a Social Security number. One action, since we have a ready-made low-DC Martial action that any of our heroes can do and thus give Genghis Khan a break.

It's kind of heartbreaking how neglected Genghis Khan's personal actions have been because we need/want him on our Martial rolls so often. :(
 
I don't think Shego's going to be appreciative if we have agents waltzing all over her territory gathering detailed intelligence on a covert crime ring IN her territory without so much as a by-your-leave from her.
Russ is a Federal agent, though from the Bureau of Paranormal Investigation.

I think it's more that Hego was attached to Bueno Nacho rather than someone poking around in her terf.

That's not going to be few turns, it's going to be several. And keeping our best martial out of action for a minimum of 4, and likely at least 6 (SSN and apartment might be single actions, the other two are certainty not) is a terrible idea.
Genghis Khan has an effective 33 Martial while dealing with modern technology. Lizzie has an effective 28, with only 2 pips on her Hero Card. Stanley has three pips on his card. They were added at the same time, so I doubt that Lizzie has a higher base Martial.

I think they can pick up the slack for a while.
 
It's kind of heartbreaking how neglected Genghis Khan's personal actions have been because we need/want him on our Martial rolls so often. :(

I am afraid of the same happening to Janna. She's just so much better at Occult than Tobe's squad, and before they showed up she was our only. The trials of being irreplaceable, I suppose.
 
I would disagree. It's entirely possible that the drug ring has moles in Shego's operations, which is why she hasn't been able to crush them yet. By going in without speaking to her, while we do run the risk of pissing her off, we also have the chance of identifying any particular taps into her organization the drug ring has. Which means that when we do the outreach, we can give her those as well to seriously lower the DC on her end.
The thing is we haven't seen Shego make any attempt to reign them in yet which in my opinion makes it a bit more likely that she's somewhat involved
The problem is that we're expending something we could otherwise get a greater benefit from at a later time, by replacing Hawk with a Hawkbot, or suborning him. Temporarily inconveniencing Doom for a while by making his spymaster toxic to associate with means we continue our feud with him while losing progress towards the eventual goal of resolving the feud in our favor.
That's fair
I'd rather push the AI action for a turn or two. That's going to lead places, and it's likely critical to getting our defenses (which are robocentric) prepared and effective.
I definitely want to do the AI actions soon as well but I also think we need to stay competitive with ENCOM, both for practical and moral reasons, and I'd rather improve our AI once we've already upgraded Norm with what we already have, or at least on the same turn as when we do so, in order to avoid exponentially increasing the DC
 
I am afraid of the same happening to Janna. She's just so much better at Occult than Tobe's squad, and before they showed up she was our only. The trials of being irreplaceable, I suppose.
To be fair, she doesn't really have many good personal actions, unless knowledge of potential benefits is hidden behind having watched Star vs. The Forces of Evil.
Janna's Personal Actions said:
[ ] Bother Doof
Your new 'evil' boss is, and this is saying something, the weirdest person you've ever met. You're now absolutely sure you want to both troll him mercilessly and just stare at him for a few hours.

[ ] Prank your Coworkers
Ancient Mongolian warlords. Stuffy secret agents. Pompous supervillains. Exasperated interns. DEI is a smorgasbord of potential targets. This is gonna be fun.

[ ] Disappear for Two Months
You got better places to be, and they ain't anyone else's business.
Most of them probably only increase loyalty, or make her more settled in DEI. Maybe Prank your Coworkers and Disappear for Two Months might help alleviate I got a little bored?
 
I think we should do a minimum and get him a Social Security number. One action, since we have a ready-made low-DC Martial action that any of our heroes can do and thus give Genghis Khan a break.

It's kind of heartbreaking how neglected Genghis Khan's personal actions have been because we need/want him on our Martial rolls so often. :(

Which is why I'm not opposing that.

Honestly, I don't. Like, I wasn't going to bring morality and feeling into it because of what happened with Princess, but both you and @MrHobbit have, so let me talk of my own perspective.

Because when people talk about adapting Khan,like it's a moral duty, that actually love-key offends me. Because Khan hasn't expressed a huge desire to do so. Like, we didn't get a loyalty bonus from him learning English. We did from throat singing and training. This suggest. personally to me, that Khan isn't interested in modernizing per-say, he doesn't mind it, but it isn't what makes him happy. And like, it makes me feel a lot like the way those different, disabilities or non-neurotypical, get treated. Clearly they can't be happy being so disabled. Autism needs to be taught how to be masked. Prosthetic should focus on mimicking abled-bodied people rather than what is actually useful, etc, etc.

Like, yes I suspect high rolls on these will have good effects but this monofocus on Khan as modernizing as the way to actual self-actualization honestly kinda bothers me. My favored action is steed, because that feels like one he actually wants, rather than our projections of what he should want. But since we want to get him a dino-steed, it's a wait. Honestly, if we are going to favor a single action for him, apartment, which allows his own space, feels like the one that is most focused on giving him something, rather than our projections of what he should be.

I definitely want to do the AI actions soon as well but I also think we need to stay competitive with ENCOM, both for practical and moral reasons, and I'd rather improve our AI once we've already upgraded Norm with what we already have, or at least on the same turn as when we do so, in order to avoid exponentially increasing the DC

Simon checked on this a while back, we can do partial upgrade. And I'm betting that OS actions are going to be much more effective after we've researched the major AI actions.
 
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To note, it's not a quest. "DVV (Disney Villains Victorious)" is a tabletop RPG setting. This is the Gridlocked edition, which is modern Disney villains (referring to time period they take place in rather than time produced), with Classic edition being all of the older Disney villains. This is simply a quest based in the RPG setting, not the origin of the setting itself. "Cruel Network" is presumably also just a setup for tabletops rather than something someone has necessarily made a quest of yet.
I've been contemplating a MandyQuest but I don't know the setting well enough
 
Which is why I'm not opposing that.
I'm not sure what you take the Khan for. Of course he would prefer to be understand modern technology. He built the Mongol Empire from scratch using the technology of the time to its maximum extent. When he massacred the population of cities he ordered that engineers be spared from the slaughter at all costs. Besides, a dinosaur mount is probably a bit off. We need to take what is presumably a Stewardship action in order to do that.

[ ] Research Dino Domestication
DC 90
Before you can really manage to get use out of dinosaurs, you need to establish a basic means of getting them to follow orders and, you know, not eat their handlers. A combination of intensive behavioral study and careful genetic modification should do the trick, at least for the smaller ones.
Reward: Dinosaur Farming action unlocked, Dinosaur Entertainment action unlocked, Domesticate Large Herbivores action unlocked, Dinosaur Cavalry action unlocked, Environmental Adaptations action unlocked
I actually wanted to get him an apartment first, but questing Xanadu has forced me to think that it is safer to get him an SSN.

Edit: Corrected sentence

Edit 2: clockworkchaos had said that a mount would take a while, I retract the strike-through'd text
 
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Which is why I'm not opposing that.

Honestly, I don't. Like, I wasn't going to bring morality and feeling into it because of what happened with Princess, but both you and @MrHobbit have, so let me talk of my own perspective.

Because when people talk about adapting Khan,like it's a moral duty, that actually love-key offends me. Because Khan hasn't expressed a huge desire to do so. Like, we didn't get a loyalty bonus from him learning English. We did from throat singing and training. This suggest. personally to me, that Khan isn't interested in modernizing per-say, he doesn't mind it, but it isn't what makes him happy. And like, it makes me feel a lot like the way those different, disabilities or non-neurotypical, get treated. Clearly they can't be happy being so disabled. Autism needs to be taught how to be masked. Prosthetic should focus on mimicking abled-bodied people rather than what is actually useful, etc, etc.

Like, yes I suspect high rolls on these will have good effects but this monofocus on Khan as modernizing as the way to actual self-actualization honestly kinda bothers me. My favored action is steed, because that feels like one he actually wants, rather than our projections of what he should want. But since we want to get him a dino-steed, it's a wait. Honestly, if we are going to favor a single action for him, apartment, which allows his own space, feels like the one that is most focused on giving him something, rather than our projections of what he should be.

So we should treat Khan like an adult with a learning disability, whose learning disability happens to be "born a few centuries ago"?

That's...actually a really fascinating concept. I can get behind that!
 
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I'm not sure what you take the Khan for. Of course he would prefer to be understand modern technology. He built the Mongol Empire from scratch using the technology of the time to its maximum extent. When he massacred the population of cities he ordered that engineers be spared from the slaughter at all costs. Besides, a dinosaur mount is probably a bit off. We need to take what is presumably a Stewardship action in order to do that.


I actually wanted to get him an apartment first, but questing Xanadu has forced me to think that it is safer to get him an SSN.

Edit: Corrected sentence

Do you actually read my posts?

Like, yes I suspect high rolls on these will have good effects but this monofocus on Khan as modernizing as the way to actual self-actualization honestly kinda bothers me. My favored action is steed, because that feels like one he actually wants, rather than our projections of what he should want. But since we want to get him a dino-steed, it's a wait. Honestly, if we are going to favor a single action for him, apartment, which allows his own space, feels like the one that is most focused on giving him something, rather than our projections of what he should be.

I said right there that the steed action was a wait.

So we should treat Khan like an adult with a learning disability, whose learning disability happens to be "born a few centuries ago"?

That's...actually a really fascinating concept. I can get behind that!
I'm skeptical of applying exactly similar concepts, which is something of a hesitation. I just...

I think it's important to distinguish actions done for strategically beneficial reasons from those we do for the person. I'm not asking we do all one or the other, but I do want us to not confuse the two. To see modernizing Khan as a generous moral obligation for Khan, instead of understanding that actions for Khan, for anyone, should be about what they want.

Like to give another example I've talked about how I think that Star could benefit from some better learning techniques then she got from her previous teachers. But, if she's not interested in trying them, then we don't treat teaching her as a favor to her. But as a strategic actions for us. I just... I care about respecting people's wants for themselves. Not what we think they should want.
 
Do you actually read my posts?
Yes I do.

Simon_Jester and I both want to get him an SSN due to how low cost it is for how much potential use it could have in the future. I personally want it next turn because it could affect the Xanadu quest. I have already expressed my desire for Khan to have an apartment.

I'm honestly baffled at what you are suggesting. We should keep Khan's wants in mind by continuously throwing him at actions that he simply doesn't understand due to us not putting in the effort into educating him in the time period we have resurrected him in. Wouldn't it be more respectful to educate him so he actually knows what he is doing?
 
Russ is a Federal agent, though from the Bureau of Paranormal Investigation.
Given her background, I think Shego DEFINITELY won't appreciate us siccing the FBI on her territory without her knowledge or consent.

Remember that under the Masquerade, she is still trying to keep up the pretense that her territory is federal jurisdiction... which means it would make trouble for her if the feds start nosing around her territory. Presumably she has some kind of understanding with the federal government about what they will and will not investigate... but Agent Russ rattling around on the side would violate that investigation.

I think it's more that Hego was attached to Bueno Nacho rather than someone poking around in her terf.
Yes, but the point wasn't the specific nature of the provocation.

The point was that when she feels she's been provoked, she reacts swiftly and decisively to eliminate the provocation.

She does not stop to think "hm, how can I turn this unwelcome intrusion to my advantage, how is it actually not bad that this happened?" That's Xanatos' schtick. Because Xanatos is a master of intrigue.

Shego, by contrast, is a mistress of martial. Shego's reaction to provocations, intrusions, or people giving her a problem is to clench her fist and give them a nice brilliant neon-green balefire hello.

Therefore, intruding on her territory or into her plans without permission is unusually risky.

I am afraid of the same happening to Janna. She's just so much better at Occult than Tobe's squad, and before they showed up she was our only. The trials of being irreplaceable, I suppose.
Well, at least there's a light at the end of that tunnel if we can get the castle over here.

Another problem is that the Occult actions are so high-DC that even with a hero they're pretty high risk. There aren't actions we feel safe taking heroless the way we might with "investigate the cape scene" or "stop the resistance."

Most of them probably only increase loyalty, or make her more settled in DEI. Maybe Prank your Coworkers and Disappear for Two Months might help alleviate I got a little bored?
That's... actually rather clever.

Because when people talk about adapting Khan,like it's a moral duty, that actually love-key offends me. Because Khan hasn't expressed a huge desire to do so. Like, we didn't get a loyalty bonus from him learning English. We did from throat singing and training. This suggest. personally to me, that Khan isn't interested in modernizing per-say, he doesn't mind it, but it isn't what makes him happy. And like, it makes me feel a lot like the way those different, disabilities or non-neurotypical, get treated. Clearly they can't be happy being so disabled. Autism needs to be taught how to be masked. Prosthetic should focus on mimicking abled-bodied people rather than what is actually useful, etc, etc.

Like, yes I suspect high rolls on these will have good effects but this monofocus on Khan as modernizing as the way to actual self-actualization honestly kinda bothers me. My favored action is steed, because that feels like one he actually wants, rather than our projections of what he should want. But since we want to get him a dino-steed, it's a wait. Honestly, if we are going to favor a single action for him, apartment, which allows his own space, feels like the one that is most focused on giving him something, rather than our projections of what he should be.
[grunts]

That's fair.

Personally I don't feel a pressing need to teach Genghis Khan science and history and whatnot to "modernize" him. I do think we should get him an SSN (just to avoid potential complications) and pursue the other personal actions that strike me as more self-actualizing.

Simon checked on this a while back, we can do partial upgrade. And I'm betting that OS actions are going to be much more effective after we've researched the major AI actions.
I wouldn't be surprised at all, yeah.

We should be patient and let ourselves spin out the clock a bit on the OS rollout. We were styling all over ENCOM with DoofOS v1 for like a year before they rolled out their new product. We can afford to wait.

I'm not sure what you take the Khan for. Of course he would prefer to be understand modern technology.
Would he prefer to understand than to not understand? Sure. Almost any person will generally prefer being able to 'do' than to 'not do.'

But is it what he really wants, when he has no steed and no home of his own? I think not.

Besides, a dinosaur mount is probably a bit off. We need to take what is presumably a Stewardship action in order to do that.
It's a Learning action. We're specifically discussing taking it next turn.

Like to give another example I've talked about how I think that Star could benefit from some better learning techniques then she got from her previous teachers. But, if she's not interested in trying them, then we don't treat teaching her as a favor to her. But as a strategic actions for us. I just... I care about respecting people's wants for themselves. Not what we think they should want.
In mitigation/complication, I'm pretty sure one of Star's personal goals is "eventual revenge," and her learning more magical or martial skills would probably help with that.

Yes I do.

Simon_Jester and I both want to get him an SSN due to how low cost it is for how much potential use it could have in the future. I personally want it next turn because it could affect the Xanadu quest. I have already expressed my desire for Khan to have an apartment.

I'm honestly baffled at what you are suggesting. We should keep Khan's wants in mind by continuously throwing him at actions that he simply doesn't understand due to us not putting in the effort into educating him in the time period we have resurrected him in. Wouldn't it be more respectful to educate him so he actually knows what he is doing?
That's not what Clockwork's been saying.

Just... reread it, without the preconceptions.

Lately you've been bringing so many preconceptions to the table about how situations work. So many that it makes it actively harder for you to understand what other people who don't share your assumptions are saying.

Reread what Clockwork said with an open mind. Don't assume you know what she wants done, or what she thinks. Just read. Ask questions that are based on the assumption that if you don't know what she said, you need to fill in the blanks by asking, not by using your mighty powers of cogitation to deduce her answer (and end up with a strawman).
 
Given her background, I think Shego DEFINITELY won't appreciate us siccing the FBI on her territory without her knowledge or consent.
I said that more with the idea of Shego thinking the Feds were looking into crime. I remember being corrected on the idea that territory is more a sphere of influence rather than a direct claim. Shego wasn't bothered with us buying land, it was Hego that bothered her.

But is it what he really wants, when he has no steed and no home of his own? I think not.

It's a Learning action. We're specifically discussing taking it next turn.
That is why I want to get Khan an apartment.

I'm not talking about Dinosaur Domestication. I was talking about the options unlocked from finishing it. Specifically Domesticate Large Herbivores or Dinosaur Cavalry. The former is probably Stewardship while the latter is probably Martial.

That's not what Clockwork's been saying.
Notice this comment?
That's not going to be few turns, it's going to be several. And keeping our best martial out of action for a minimum of 4, and likely at least 6 (SSN and apartment might be single actions, the other two are certainty not) is a terrible idea.
clockworkchaos expressed concern about keeping Khan away from Martial. A few comments later the comments are about what does the Khan want. Isn't that a rather strange combination? Do you think Khan would like being sicc'd on Martial actions that he does not understand?

That is why I am baffled.
 
In mitigation/complication, I'm pretty sure one of Star's personal goals is "eventual revenge," and her learning more magical or martial skills would probably help with that.
Yup, which is is why I ultimately suspect that she won't have a problem with it, but I will accept her agency, either way.

That's not what Clockwork's been saying.

Just... reread it, without the preconceptions.

Lately you've been bringing so many preconceptions to the table about how situations work. So many that it makes it actively harder for you to understand what other people who don't share your assumptions are saying.

Reread what Clockwork said with an open mind. Don't assume you know what she wants done, or what she thinks. Just read. Ask questions that are based on the assumption that if you don't know what she said, you need to fill in the blanks by asking, not by using your mighty powers of cogitation to deduce her answer (and end up with a strawman).

This. Thank you, Simon.

To try to make my position clear as possible.

First, from a strategic standpoint. Taking these personal actions to modernize Khan when we have actions such as "Deal with the Resitance" is fine. I just don't want us to precommit to "only take personal actions with Khan" for the next (possibly year or longer?). Second, from a moral standpoint. I want us to treat these actions as strategic choices, not morally correct ones for Khan. Khan understand who he is, and can express his desires. We have seen those desires in his loyalty meter, and can look at it, and we should distinguish, what Khan wants (throat singing, us not to be a wimp) from what we project he wants. Like, the whole "modernizing him is the only way to self-actualization" feels like it borders reallllly uncomfortable one some real life issues with the way people who aren't considered 'modern' are treated in terms of choices.

clockworkchaos expressed concern about keeping Khan away from Martial. A few comments later the comments are about what does the Khan want. Isn't that a rather strange combination? Do you think Khan would like being sicc'd on Martial actions that he does not understand?

That is why I am baffled.

This is because I have both strategic reasons and moral reasons. Morally, for personal actions that focus on self-actualization that Khan wants, and we already know what sort of actions Khan wants. English learning didn't increase his loyalty. Throat singing did. This tells us something about what Khan wants. If we are to take actions for Khan, I want those actions to keep him mind him, not our projections of him. If we are to take actions based on strategy, I want to keep in mind strategy. I kept it to strategic at first because I didn't want to bring real world issues*, but as others brought up morality, I laid out my morality as well.

*Given what happened the last time
 
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Remember that under the Masquerade, she is still trying to keep up the pretense that her territory is federal jurisdiction... which means it would make trouble for her if the feds start nosing around her territory. Presumably she has some kind of understanding with the federal government about what they will and will not investigate... but Agent Russ rattling around on the side would violate that investigation.

I still disagree.

Shego has shown an appreciation for someone breaking the "rules" when it's ultimately to her own advantage. Plus I think we've established a bit of trust with her after the Sands Gala. Doof has been having monthly meetings with her at Bueno Nacho, and to top things off, we'd be sending in an agent that she knows is willing to break the law in the name of getting things done. She is also aware that Russ currently answers to Doof for his marching orders first, so she wouldn't assume that whatever is going on is federally motivated.
 
This is because I have both strategic reasons and moral reasons. Morally, for personal actions that focus on self-actualization that Khan wants, and we already know what sort of actions Khan wants. English learning didn't increase his loyalty. Throat singing did. This tells us something about what Khan wants. If we are to take actions for Khan, I want those actions to keep him mind him, not our projections of him. If we are to take actions based on strategy, I want to keep in mind strategy. I kept it to strategic at first because I didn't want to bring real world issues*, but as others brought up morality, I laid out my morality as well.

*Given what happened the last time
I know that there will be complicating issues. That is why I mentioned the bolded part:
Here's a proposal for Khan's actions over the next few turns, assuming that a Nemesis doesn't force us to have Khan SMASH: SSN, Xanadu, Apartment, Study history (for how many turns), then Understand technology.
I didn't specify Martial actions where we are forced to have Khan SMASH, but I figured that was implied.

I am fully aware that Khan will like getting a mount more*, it helps him as a person. Technology and History will help Khan get back into his prime as the man who conquered the world. He will certainly appreciate it all when it is finally finished.

*I do admit to forgetting the mount option when I wrote the proposal, it would have been nice if you had mentioned the lack of choosing a mount up front
 
To expand on my thoughts in regards to the Middleton action, I'm really trying to avoid hyperbole or fear mongering; but I've seen first-hand how drug rings can spread like an infection; and the kind of damage that they can do even when they're not technically "established" in the area. And I don't want to find out that we've got people dead or addicted to the nootropics to the point that they'll sell us out for another hit. If anything, I'd switch the action to "spy on employees" instead just to do a sweep and make sure that we don't have anyone already hooked on the payroll; as a compromise if people are really that worried over how Shego will react.
 
Counterpoint: You said this:
clockworkchaos expressed concern about keeping Khan away from Martial. A few comments later the comments are about what does the Khan want. Isn't that a rather strange combination? Do you think Khan would like being sicc'd on Martial actions that he does not understand?

That is why I am baffled.
After @clockworkchaos had already said this:
I think it's important to distinguish actions done for strategically beneficial reasons from those we do for the person. I'm not asking we do all one or the other, but I do want us to not confuse the two.
You expressed confusion about how she could possibly care both about Khan's wellbeing and about his strategic utility immediately after she explained that she just wanted to distinguish between the two.

Since distinguishing between benevolent and strategic actions does not preclude wanting to put Khan on benevolent or strategic actions, there is no reason to be baffled by her post.

Unless, perhaps, you had already decided what @clockworkchaos's beliefs were before fully reading the post. In that case, her actual thoughts, which are obviously divorced from your assumptions, would be perplexing indeed.


If that seems uncharitable to you, you have made very confident assertions about my own beliefs in the last two arguments we've had that were literally wrong, and that a minute of searchbar usage would show you were wrong. If you could try putting more effort into thinking about what the people you're arguing with actually believe, perhaps even extending them the occasional benefit of the doubt when you're unsure, that would make for a much less frustrating thread experience.
 
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If that seems uncharitable to you, you have made very confident assertions about my own beliefs in the last two arguments we've had that were literally wrong, and that a minute of searchbar usage would show you were wrong. If you could try putting more effort into thinking about what the people you're arguing with actually believe, perhaps even extending them the occasional benefit of the doubt when you're unsure, that would make for a much less frustrating thread experience.
Hey, here's an idea: HOW ABOUT WE STOP TALKING ABOUT STUFF LIKE THIS?! I came to this thread to roleplay and have fun, not listen to my fellow players make accusations to others and attack their opinions on the next step. That's what they are: opinions. They have a right to be said, and if you disagree, just say you do and list your reasons why. Don't attack them by calling them "mono-focused" or "presumptuous".

This goes for kfrar and everyone else who makes responses like this. Your argumentative and aggressive responses are draining all the enjoyment out of this, and I'm sick of it. STOP
 
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