This seems like a poor analysis of the setting.

Seems like the biggest prioritt for Kings would be to keep their power, whether society changes or not. Xanatos and Khan for example.

Also some Kings definitely want to change society. And some even for the better, or what they think is the better. Winston, Yokai, Bellwether, Kane come to mind.
I mean, Xanatos' and Khan's power does rely on society staying the same? Same with Bellwether? Winston is genuinely idealistic, but fundamentally all his power also comes from the existing socio-economic system, and any truly serious change would be naturally opposed by almost all of them?
 
I mean, Xanatos' and Khan's power does rely on society staying the same? Same with Bellwether? Winston is genuinely idealistic, but fundamentally all his power also comes from the existing socio-economic system, and any truly serious change would be naturally opposed by almost all of them?

What kind of major change to the socio-economic system would Doof even want? He doesn't strike me as an economic revolutionary lmao
 
I'm not sure Doof himself would want Doofania anymore once he gets over his various trauma-induced delusions. Once he realizes that people genuinely like him without him having to force it upon them, would he still want to be a dictator, take on all that responsibility?

Given his canon decisions, I really do not think would. I think he'd rather try and help his people and his friends and stop the evil Kings out there—which is pretty much what he's already doing.

Also, I actually disagree with those that think corporate power is meaningless and/or boring. That's been the bread and butter of this quest and of DEI's power this whole time! This quest as a whole has not been boring, ever! As a matter of fact, plunging into "Create Tax Administration" actions sounds much more boring than anything we have going on now! Count me as a firm "stay a megacorp, help Doof fix his flawed understanding of the world, and then save it from all the baddies" supporter.

…with the one exception of becoming the eventual Prince-Elector of Drusselstein, because that would be amazingly horrifying and actually get Doof a royal title if he does end up still wanting it.
Recently, we put together a new Corporate Action subsystem made to sweep aside a lot of 'boring' parts of running a megacorp and keep them out of focus unless necessary.

If you were to engage in a major nation-building project (NOT Drusselstein, though drusselstein will have Actions to do), that would become impossible to maintain.
 
What kind of major change to the socio-economic system would Doof even want? He doesn't strike me as an economic revolutionary lmao

View: https://youtu.be/sop-5gBaKvs

Mostly, I feel like he would want Anti-Drusselstein. A place where all kids are cared for no matter how strange they are, where the weirdoes can be free to be weird, and where you can do your mad science in peace as long as you don't point it at anyone else.

The people who have lived outside the System, the quirky oddballs. The Eda Clawthornes, the Lilo Pelekais and Jumba Jookibas, the Lewises and Mike Yagoobians, the Tobes, even.
 
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What kind of major change to the socio-economic system would Doof even want? He doesn't strike me as an economic revolutionary lmao
I don't think he would want any such thing, honestly, but if, for some reason, we really decided we turn America into, as @Lab_Accident put it "a golden land of opportunity, a land with pioneering spirit which welcomed misfits like me", we would probably need some serious changes.

That'd probably require a very particular avenue of character development, but I was addressing that idea.
 
People who actually want to secede have no idea how that process would actually work, aside from "the government would stop telling me what to do." They sure as heck don't realize how fundamentally interconnected literally everything on the planet is, at both a technological and economic level.
Fair enough. Many of my opinions are based on feeling and emotion, and I'll admit that at times it's a flaw.
 
I don't think it should be on the grounds of loyalty, I agree. Nation-states are a spook. But frankly, building a new state from the ground up is... very different from building an -Inator. It's a lot easier to do reform (at least, it is when you're the owner of a Megacorp in a fundamentally Disney based world) than to start a new country.
Brand-New-State-Inator (Positive)
The Brand-New-State-Inator makes sweeping changes across the country. Being pressed for time, Doofenshmirtz decided to let it take cues from other countries. This setting transforms every piece of bread from coast to coast into a delicious croissant. This turn the DC of food-related actions is lowered by 50 globally as a result of the delectable baked goods.

Brand-New-State-Inator (Positive)
The Brand-New-State-Inator makes sweeping changes across the country. Being pressed for time, Doofenshmirtz decided to let it take cues from other countries. This setting unleashes swarms of doonkelberry bats across the country, increasing the DC of food-related actions by 50 globally as the bats swarm any uncovered sweets.

@Arathnorn
 
Even if "going somewhere else and making our own nation" was what we decided on doing, it doesn't change anything about the fact that Doofania does not currently exist, and could not exist as it's currently conceptualized by doof, and it's not healthy for Doof to believe that it does or could.
That's... Not what I've been saying? I don't want Doofania as it is currently conceptualized to exist, I want a place where people can be freer and happier. That doesn't need to be beholden to another 50 States and 250 years of ingrained history to make a change for the better.

Doofania as it is currently conceptualized absolutely could exist, QMs said so, but that'd be ugly and I don't think anyone wants that, even Doof. I want Doof to find a better concept of Doofania, and then make that true. Basically, I want the the premise of the movie Tomorrowland.
 
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That's... Not what I've been saying? I don't want Doofania as it is currently conceptualized to exist, I want a place where people can be freer and happier. That doesn't need to be beholden to another 50 States and 250 years of ingrained system to make a change for the better.
The problem is that you have been saying that. When the GMs Say stuff like This:
Saying that 'Doofania isn't real' isn't to say Doof can't become more powerful. In fact, we're worried that the message you're getting from us is that we think other people's visions of 'Doofania' as a place where people are more free, where people are safer, or happier, or as a sort of cultural idea (an 'American Dream' sort of thing) is something he can't do or other people think is stupid. We do not, because this is not what Heinz Doofenshmirtz means when he talks about Doofania. He, like other powerful people in the US, can do a lot, whether that is for his own power and personal desires or even, if he wishes it, to help others. He's done both! A lot! Compared to any other 'King', Doofenshmirtz has so far been the most benevolent, by a country mile. But when he does good, or even does well, he needs to find ways to work around reality as it stands. And that means acknowledging that reality.
and THIS:
Does he want to gain more real power and influences? He can start playing the game the rest of the world runs on. Does he want to continue being a wacky supervillain who does things for petty reasons? He can absolutely do that, Shego gets away with an entire lifetime of serious crime and still gets to be in charge. 'Commit Supervillainy' is not going away anytime soon. Does he want to, in fact, become a better person, and change the world for the better? That path is open, and you've gone a ways along it. But none of those paths go through Doofenshmirtz continuing to pretend he is a dictator when he is not. Not even the one where he decides, screw what half my hero units think, I want to do everything I can to actually become a dictator.
and your response is this:
I don't know, I guess the concept that as Doof grows and changes, the idea that Doofania - which has always represented his Utopia, his dream-state, his overarching goal in life - cannot also grow and change with him to reflect his current values and dreams is... Demoralizing? That it has to be this one, static, stuck thing, it can't be recontextualized.

That he can't just work on his life's goal and adjust it as needed, that the only way to move forward give it up, and move on to something more "realistic" in order to be happy at all... To me, Doof has always been a kind of inspirational character because his entire life story has been being told by everyone that he's not good enough to do things, and then going on to do them anyways, in his own bumbling ways. That he's motivated by spite against a world that doesn't care.
The only possible interpretation of your response is that you've fundamentally missed the point of the post.
 
We have tried, since the start of the quest, to telegraph this delusion as being a delusion.
I thought the QMs did quite well explaining it previously. It's come up several times and you have been consistent in your messaging about it.

It just seemed like a bit of a thing where some people latch onto something and consider it a central part of the quest despite repeatedly being told it's not actually real.
 
Making America better is certainly within the scope of this quest if the collective you wants it to be.

For obvious reasons, this will not take the form of serious considerations about the best form of electoral and societal organization. This may be a realistic Disney quest, but good lord do we not want to deal with actual political debate in our realistic Disney quest. Expect debates on the personhood of AI, and how to deal with a duck that owns a state, and rooting out evil spies. Not anything...

topical.

Are you telling me dealing with a duck that owns a state isn't topical?
 
Oh, and one other thing I want to note. Invading Drusselstein is not an entirely pointless action. Even putting aside the narrative and character development potential of doofenshmirtz getting a taste of real domination, of returning to his homeland in triumph, of facing the realities of rule and the challenges of power. And also all the dumb drusselstein jokes we could make.

In terms of making the land a better place, or profitable, you're unlikely to get much more than breaking even. Drusselstein really, really does suck. A lot.

But there are some... unexpected potential benefits.

I mean, some people did have the idea that, since nobody really wants to deal with the malignant anachronistic stain on history and good taste that is Drusselstein, we could just conquer it and turn it into our very own Blacksite for stuff we don´t want to get publically slapped for by the Feds...Not the worst idea.

That and forcing Doofs DNA donors (not calling them his "parents" ever) at gunpoint to aknowledge the fact that now, their "failure" of an elder son is the one calling the shots in their relationship is a rather enticing prospect as well.

Yes, actually. In fact, Agent Russ would tell you that until recent events, a significant faction in the CAIA considered a shadow war between Kronos and Drakktech a near-inevitability in the long term, and were debating how to prepare for that.

Only for Kronos to implode spectacularly (thanks in no small part thanks to the "diseased lunatic of Danvile", I might add), get reformed into Olympia under Evelyn Deavor and *Then* to have her psychotic nature revealed and her swapped out for Winston, who is far less confrontational than either Syndrome or his sister...

Wonder how the Feds will take the revelation that Doof was instrumental in "solving" that conundrum for them...^^

'Realizing you don't own Doofania the way you thought they did' is a tipping point that will occur if you continue taking 'anti-delusion' actions. Taking 'Rejoin the Government' is one way to tip yourself over that threshold immediately.

Meaning it´s effectively "going cold turkey", which anyone working in social works & healthcare will tell you is a *bad idea* when not closely monitored and controlled tightly.

So yeah, we should only pull that card if we really have to and nothing else works fast enough anymore.

Yes, and I am objecting to the notion that Doofania must be a dictatorial state geographically located on the Tri-State Area. Heck, Doof canonically tried to make it an ultra-marine nation once. We could build it under the sea in international waters with his climate tech, a modern day Atlantis.

So, basically a less inherently self-destructive Rapture/Columbia?

Fine by me

No he doesn't. At best he controls the bi-and-a-half state area thanks to that green-glowing menace Shego.

And no matter what anyone says, Shego *Does* "contest" our claim of rulership by being the powerful CEO of a rival megacorp who can oppose any stuff we do that infringes on her profits if she so desires.

That´s a big reason why actual dictators in RL tend to crack down hard and immediately on independent businesses on their turfs - because they by their very nature contest that absolute power.
 
I liked the idea of Doofania. Not because it was practical or a good idea or anything. But just because it was amusing and because it was I could conjure reasons for it even if they barely existed. Also because I knew that it'd ultimately place the acrid taste of victory on Doof's tongue. He'd get what he asked for, but not what he wanted.

Meh, time to move on.

I suppose the question to pitch at this point is whether to continue with the slower peeling back of Doof's flawed, impractical, and frankly harmful views to get rid of the unreachable fantasy of Doofania to make way for a more tangible vision (whether that be a new form of Doofania through Drusselstein/the softer megacorp power/space/other dimensions or simply bettering the world) or do we try and push for ripping off the bandage and officially rejoining the US.

An interesting option I'll admit. With our new climate tech I'm sure a more allied government would be plenty happy to see us working with them on the wasteland or maybe even a moonbase. I did the math, assuming no XP, Doof's own Diplo is added, and no changes to stats or bonuses or maluses (such as Loyalty cause I don't remember that right now) we've actually got a slightly weighted coinflip of a chance with Kermit. 55.8%. Our chances get even better with the QMBsquad who have +1 Diplo over Kermit by himself. 56.6. If this manages to hit Odd Jobbers for whatever reason than it jumps all the way to a 65% chance.
 
The problem is that you have been saying that. When the GMs Say stuff like This:

and THIS:

and your response is this:

The only possible interpretation of your response is that you've fundamentally missed the point of the post.
Let me put it a different way: I want an option to acknowledge that Doofania as it is currently conceptualized does not exist, and then to decide on making an independent nation of Doofania that IS freer, safer, and happier, happen. And I don't think that's currently an option that we'll be getting, which is why I'm speaking up.

From what I understand of what QMs have been saying, founding a nation just plain isn't in the cards. And that kind of sucks. Maybe I'm wrong, and that is an option, and my comments are just plain rethorical and pointless. But I'd rather be wrong and pointless then right and not have spoken up at all.
 
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Let me put it a different way: I want an option to acknowledge that Doofania as it is currently conceptualized does not exist, and then to make an independent nation of Doofania that IS freer, safer, and happier, happen. And I don't think that's currently an option that we're getting.

From what I understand of what QMs have been saying, founding a nation just plain isn't in the cards.

It's not happening because of the massive issues that would immediately pop up with the government and with most of our heroes if we did so. There just isn't a way to make an independent Doofania based out of the Tri-State Area ever without knocking over a lot of anthills that we don't want knocked over; it doesn't matter if we had a better ideology behind trying to do so.
 
It's not happening because of the massive issues that would immediately pop up with the government and with most of our heroes if we did so. There just isn't a way to make an independent Doofania based out of the Tri-State Area ever without knocking over a lot of anthills that we don't want knocked over; it doesn't matter if we had a better ideology behind trying to do so.
I am sorry if at any point I have said something that has made it seem like I want an independent Doofania based out of the Tri-State Area specifically, or any Area that the United States currently counts as its own (unless they agreed to sell us an Island, or something).
 
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He provides extremely good healthcare to his employees, is effectively subsidizing super and cape activity anywhere Insuricare operates, and runs a PMC.

Out costs are pretty likely to go up when Supers get ingrained again aren't they?

Oh, and one other thing I want to note. Invading Drusselstein is not an entirely pointless action. Even putting aside the narrative and character development potential of doofenshmirtz getting a taste of real domination, of returning to his homeland in triumph, of facing the realities of rule and the challenges of power. And also all the dumb drusselstein jokes we could make.

in which Doof is reminded that the drussteinien stereotype that Mark Beaks perpetuated esxists for a reason

Yes, actually. In fact, Agent Russ would tell you that until recent events, a significant faction in the CAIA considered a shadow war between Kronos and Drakktech a near-inevitability in the long term, and were debating how to prepare for that.

huh, that's pretty interesting to consider

Brand-New-State-Inator (Positive)

Brand-New-State-Inator (Positive)

@Arathnorn

For 1, 50 seems like too big a change for either of these
For 2, Argidoll is the one handling inators now
 
We'd like to try and address the Doofania issue, because we're very sure we've not done a good enough job of signposting our narrative.

...I don't.

I don't usually want to consider myself egotistical enough to have detailed responses to GM posts.

But, ah. Considering that this post specifically makes overtures to a lot of my points, I think it's best I give it a shot this time.

For a while now, I've been arguing for, I think, the way I want Doofquest to be, more than the way it actually is. This was halfway a lack of understanding of what the GMs were going for, true, but it was also halfway a criticism, and a secret third halfway a request. I came into this topic, all those literal years ago, with the idea of a Doof that succeeds, is competent, is petty and grandiose and devilish and yet is benevolent and personable, and - and who really isn't all that different from the Doof we see in the original Phineas & Ferb series. Not the one at the end, or in Milo Murphy, who exists post-character arc, or in the middle of a new story. "Curse you, Perry the Platypus!" Heinz Doofenschmirtz.

I think Doofquest is funnest, and funniest, and most interesting to me, when it's about a man who calls himself evil, and does constant cartoon supervillainy, and is extremely petty and more than a little scatterbrained... somehow stumbling into being a force for good.

Keeping Danville as Doofania enforces this narrative. Un-seceding does not.

I'm aware of where Doof's plotline goes, in the Phineas & Ferb's multiple timelines. A force for good, a happy family man, Professor Time, a schoolteacher, all these things. I just... don't find any of them to be what I came here to play Doofquest for?

But.

Things do change, don't they? That's sort of the point of them being "things".

It's like. Phineas and Ferb is a show about constantly and deftly maintaining the status quo. Not merely "aggressively" so, but unshakeably so, on the level of the laws of physics. There's 104 days of summer vacation, except there's actually a lot more, and also, when you look closely, all of them are actually kind of the same day?

That's perfect for a non-serialized comedy cartoon. Leaning into that is for the best. And the funniest! But was it ever gonna work for a long-running "actual" story, with consequences and everything?

No. No, of course not. We had to stop being a cartoon eventually.

I think the honest truth is: I wouldn't have written all of this, this way. I would have found a different way to solve the problem of Moving Doofenschmirtz Forwards. But the other honest truth is: I'm not writing Doofquest. No matter how many omakes of Janna being everyone's favorite I trick the GMs into making canon, I never have been.

The cards have all been laid on the table. I understand what the GMs are saying, I think, and they understand me, I hope. At this point, it's really just a matter of personal preference.

So - I concede. Danville forever.





...buuuut I don't want to hand Doofania back willy-nilly. I still prefer narrative over mechanics, and so, I'd like to vote (metaphorically) that we, the topic, hold off a little bit longer. Sometime soon, there's going to be an in-universe push, I feel. A moment where Doofenschmirtz doesn't just stare the facts in the face, but the feelings attached in the face. At some point, he's going to do something or other that makes me think:

"Okay. He's changed. He feels differently now."

And that's when I feel like I'll be comfortable with getting those sweet sweet government opinion points.
 
... Yeah. A huge part of why I enjoy cartoons well into my adult years is because of the message "embrace weirdness". The message of "if you want to be more successful, stop being weird and play the game everybody else is playing" just feels bad to me.

It's probably realistic, in a cynical way, but it feels bad. This setting was always a mix of cartoons and Shadowrun, but I came for the cartoon, not the Shadowrun. And it seems that the at the end of the day, the Shadowrun wins.
 
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I don't think we should secede from the US. Doof should grow and recognize that he's not actually a supreme ruler.

...but, we probably could swing getting the city of Danville officially renamed to Doofania in recognition of something good we've done. Food crisis, fending off an alien invasion, whatever. Maybe whatever Dan Danville is named after (not the real show-creator one) turns out to be a horrible person so they want to rename it anyways.

Getting a city renamed after us strikes me as just the right amount of petty ego-stroking without actually doing anything bad. Or it could be a heartfelt moment, where Doof's friends arrange it as a surprise for him.
 
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