DoofQuest- a Disney Villains Victorious CK2-Style Quest
- Thread starter Made in Heaven
- Start date
- Crossover
It ties into my previous comment about Xanatos actually indulging in displays of cliche villainy every so often in canon. He seems to enjoy the idea of it.
With Doof being a sorta lovable mad science "villain" and the common ground of having lost nemesis (nemeses?) that meant a lot to both men, there is a small possibility of friendliness there. A student-teacher relationship may not be the best way of getting there, but proximity increases the chances.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'll reiterate: even if we want to be friends with Xanatos, a chess player cannot really be friends with a piece. They can be friends with another player, perhaps (though that's still far from guaranteed), but being promoted is not being another player.
I think that while you're correct that proximity increases the chances, our meetings will happen no matter what? Like, we won't not have meetings, we're going to see Xanatos once a turn regardless, and that would be when any practice is done.
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Lab_Accident
A 2D 1D4
- Location
- Your dreams
The Interlude you quoted to make your point, where Xanatos has to beat a DC 150 Intrigue action to not freak out, does not indicate to me that he was "amused" at Doof's "cliche" villainy, or any desire at all of indulging in it.
What it does look like, is Xanatos seeing us as a threat he needs to contain. And possibly, neuter before it grows.
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Underdog Emiya
God-Emperor of Underkind
- Location
- Brazil
- Pronouns
- He
Hm...on one hand, it sounds a stretch in concluding that Xanatos is afraid of us. He doesn't seem the type to get fazed easily.
On the other hand, this was after we built our most potent Inator to date. He knows we're capable of pulling some serious bullshit, that we are smart as hell, and all the jazz, only lacking in good sense. In essence, among the Kings, we're the wildcard of the bunch, as we don't act like most do.
In short, we have, at Xanatos eyes, what is called Blue and Orange Morality. I think he doesn't need an alliance with us, but it's a just in case kind of thing, in case we construct something like, I dunno, the Other-Dimension-Inator, and start getting into the multiverse. In a way, I feel he didn't expect us to perceive how much he's pulling the strings on us. Maybe he expected we figured it out at some point, but I think he hoped to keep the facade for a little bit. Him being frank about what he thinks of our relation can be seen as a try to recover from that and try to get closer to Doof at the same time. After all, in the words of Jack Sparrow, you can always trust someone dishonest to be dishonest, and that's the predictability we can count in working with Xanatos.
In the whole chess analogy department, it's right that we can't be friends with our pieces. However, what's the value of a king if he isn't ready to put his hands in the mud? Even the best player sometimes need to put his share of work in the field. And that's where knowing your pieces comes in handy.
On the other hand, this was after we built our most potent Inator to date. He knows we're capable of pulling some serious bullshit, that we are smart as hell, and all the jazz, only lacking in good sense. In essence, among the Kings, we're the wildcard of the bunch, as we don't act like most do.
In short, we have, at Xanatos eyes, what is called Blue and Orange Morality. I think he doesn't need an alliance with us, but it's a just in case kind of thing, in case we construct something like, I dunno, the Other-Dimension-Inator, and start getting into the multiverse. In a way, I feel he didn't expect us to perceive how much he's pulling the strings on us. Maybe he expected we figured it out at some point, but I think he hoped to keep the facade for a little bit. Him being frank about what he thinks of our relation can be seen as a try to recover from that and try to get closer to Doof at the same time. After all, in the words of Jack Sparrow, you can always trust someone dishonest to be dishonest, and that's the predictability we can count in working with Xanatos.
In the whole chess analogy department, it's right that we can't be friends with our pieces. However, what's the value of a king if he isn't ready to put his hands in the mud? Even the best player sometimes need to put his share of work in the field. And that's where knowing your pieces comes in handy.
Lab_Accident
A 2D 1D4
- Location
- Your dreams
Xanatos tends to keep his hands clean, by sending others into the mud for him. Usually, mercenaries he wouldn't give a shit about betraying later.
- Location
- Two hours away
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Russ would be upset with us if we're in David's hands.
Ah, flipping and flopping, how I hate to love and love to hate it.
[X] Develop Your Center
I was already on the side of rejecting the offer, but this only reinforces it.
The man has already been through a lot, let's not give him this kind of welcome back present as soon as he returns... and learns that we've been kidnapped... aaand learns of the flubber fiasco.
Aaaaaaand that someone stole the Declaration of Independence.
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[X] Develop Your Center
On the plus side, we helped depose one King, and replaced her with a much better, more moral successor.
So it's not all bad... only mostly.
[X] Develop Your Center
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, I've decided to go over the whole update, to try and pinpoint what's rubbing me the wrong way about this interaction, and how Xanatos is manipulating us.
And on the one hand, yes, Doofenshmirtz is dumb for not realizing that, that's why this approach works. But Xanatos wasn't approaching things expecting Doofenshmirtz to be smarter, he approached things knowing Doofenshmirtz's blindspots.
For example, note how his first choice in pointing out how they're not friends isn't saying it outright. Instead, he chooses to lead Doof to the realization, so that Doof doesn't feel rebuffed in any real sense, and instead feels like it was his mistake (which it was).
As for the last bit, where he mentions networking? Yeah, I believe him, actually? Like, Xanatos never has just one angle, and I'm sure he did want to network. It's just, as far as he thought, networking probably mainly involved making Doof like Xanatos.
The very fact Doof has even noticed this is probably already out of his previous expectations, and so when he says that he expects nothing less, he's thinking about the new Doof. His view is probably along the lines of "Yeah, I can't get something for literally nothing any more. I can still manipulate him and get what I want, but his resistance against being completely and totally fleeced is higher. Well, probably a good thing overall."
So, yeah. I think there is some genuine warmth when David says that, even as he still plans on manipulating Doof.
(For people less familiar with Phineas and Ferb, Dr. Gevaarjilik really didn't like Doof, but he wanted to impress her with his evil anyways, yet he always failed. So, here, he feels like he's looking for approval, which, on some level, he knows he's not going to get. I'm not entirely sure how to interpret that in this context.)
Also, quick aside to note the chess pieces here: the white microscope, David, is looming over the black screws, Doof. It represents how Xanatos is dominating this conversation. David picking up the screw is representative of him moving Doof closer to himself, in preparation for both promotion and for it to become a piece of his. Here, the chess metaphor gets a bit mixed up, unfortunately.
Meanwhile, Doof's responses are actually kind of interesting, here? First off, the bit about being honest being a death knell of most relationships… what's he actually referring to? Like, I guess it could be being honest with himself about his parents? But I'm not sure what else?
Second, he's looking for an angle, and, to be honest, Xanatos knows he's looking for an angle, wondering what Xanatos is up to. But he speaks anyways, because he actually does want to spill some of this stuff. Not sure who else he'd do it with, other than Technor, to be honest. Doof is fundamentally an open person, and hiding stuff isn't really how he rolls, even when he knows he should.
Also, Xanatos' hesitance is interesting. It's not real, obviously, but it's designed to create the sense that it's completely off the cuff, that he's just tossing an idea out at random, like this whole conversation hasn't been on some level manipulative.
Now, Xanatos' smile, which doesn't feel insulting. On one level, of course, it's put on. But, on another level? I think he genuinely may feel like it's not too bad a deal that he's offering, here. Sure, he's getting a look at DEI's inner workings, and he's getting a chance to really see through anything Doof does, but he's also genuinely giving Doof something pretty useful, he probably feels. I suspect, like a lot of us agree on, he doesn't actually think that this is a negative for Doof overall, even if it's nothing but upside for him.
I suspect he's also being serious when he talks about collaborating on big problems eventually.
Finally, more ellipses. Again, he's giving off the impression of being more hesitant than he really is, mirroring Doof's hesitancy when first revealing his worries to put Doof more at ease.
Now, here, he doesn't hide the trap. He knows Doof would likely realize it, and by admitting it, he gives us a feeling of security, and more importantly, control, exactly what Doof said he was lacking. It's a concession to Doof's comfort, and also avoids any future realizations.
Of course, when he says he's not trying to pressure Doof, well. He's not entirely wrong, pressure is the wrong word. Instead, it's more like he tilted the surface upon which Doof sits, leaning him towards one option unnoticeably. He has primed Doof to accept this, but he also recognizes Doof is unpredictable.
Xanatos is pitting two parts of Doof against one another: Doof's desire to have total control, against Doof's desire to not be failing, to not be bad at this. It's rather sad, but reasons beyond that will probably… not be really incorporated? Unless we're very lucky, of course. Personally, I feel like I would have been more receptive if Xanatos hadn't done all this manipulation before, and had come straight out and offered. But I'm not Doof.
Anyways, in summary, I do feel that we shouldn't take the deal, not because it's a net negative for us (I don't think it is, especially not in Xanatos' eyes, although I do think potential bonding with Mirage shouldn't be underestimated), but because Xanatos has put us off balance and manipulated us into this position, and I feel like we're off balance enough that we shouldn't just take the deal.
Thus:
[X] Develop Your Center
-[X] Pick up the boxed in screw and use it somewhere in the Inator you're working on.
The subvote is… idk. It just feels right.
So, I'm basically 100% sure this is a lie. He's acting like it's something obvious, and I think that's part of what he's actually doing this whole section: he acts as if he was expecting more from Doofenshmirtz, and then makes Doofenshmirtz feel dumb for not realizing that.
And on the one hand, yes, Doofenshmirtz is dumb for not realizing that, that's why this approach works. But Xanatos wasn't approaching things expecting Doofenshmirtz to be smarter, he approached things knowing Doofenshmirtz's blindspots.
Xanatos' use of body language here communicates to Doof just how open he's being, just how earnest, where, once again, he's pretty blatantly lying. Like, Xanatos out-negotiated Doof incredibly heavily, he knows that in-character and we know that out of character. He did not start these meetings with the intention of mutual information gathering.
Once again, here, Doof is right to feel a bit childish and sheepish. He was wrong to think of someone he met a few times as a friend. But, at the same time, Xanatos is playing up how sheepish he should be. Once again, the narration shows him acting how one would expect him to if he were surprised, but it doesn't actually state he's surprised, because he's not.
For example, note how his first choice in pointing out how they're not friends isn't saying it outright. Instead, he chooses to lead Doof to the realization, so that Doof doesn't feel rebuffed in any real sense, and instead feels like it was his mistake (which it was).
Here, of course, he says "if I misled you", and honestly? He's not entirely wrong to say that. Like, he never really deliberately misled Doof. Rather, he allowed Doof to make his assumptions, and didn't correct them. In a sense, then, he once again uses the tactic I mentioned above, letting Doof save face by acting as if the fault is partially his- and thus also potentially making Doof feel like he's even worse (Admittedly, this is the portion of the analysis I'm least sure of).
As for the last bit, where he mentions networking? Yeah, I believe him, actually? Like, Xanatos never has just one angle, and I'm sure he did want to network. It's just, as far as he thought, networking probably mainly involved making Doof like Xanatos.
This is where what I've been saying is stated most explicitly. Everything Xanatos is saying is reasonable, and if he wasn't Xanatos, if it was someone like Winston saying it, I'd believe them. But it is Xanatos. Now, the thing is, even though he's lying, he's still right, and it's still something Doof should consider.
This is another bit I'm not 100% sure how to read. I may be still being fooled by Xanatos, but I do actually think there's a very slight amount of fondness/amusement here. Like, I think Xanatos is genuinely impressed by the growth Doof has shown, while still knowing that he's going to come out the overall victor.
The very fact Doof has even noticed this is probably already out of his previous expectations, and so when he says that he expects nothing less, he's thinking about the new Doof. His view is probably along the lines of "Yeah, I can't get something for literally nothing any more. I can still manipulate him and get what I want, but his resistance against being completely and totally fleeced is higher. Well, probably a good thing overall."
So, yeah. I think there is some genuine warmth when David says that, even as he still plans on manipulating Doof.
And yet, somewhere, Doof recognizes he's being manipulated. He's aware enough to feel uneasy, but not aware enough to notice where it's coming from. I'll admit, being in this state somehow feels even sadder than what was there previously. Before, it was basically totally divorced from reality, how Doof reacted to Xanatos. But here, we see Xanatos bringing out all of his manipulative chops, and it strikes far closer to reality.
(For people less familiar with Phineas and Ferb, Dr. Gevaarjilik really didn't like Doof, but he wanted to impress her with his evil anyways, yet he always failed. So, here, he feels like he's looking for approval, which, on some level, he knows he's not going to get. I'm not entirely sure how to interpret that in this context.)
So, here, Xanatos starts angling towards what he wants, having laid the groundwork. And interestingly, from this point on, he basically is honest. He pinpoints one of Doof's worries (which is often present in the thread, and thus in Doof's mind), and offers a potential solution. He's probably been thinking of this as an in the whole time, and now he's narrowing in on it, prepared to offer Doof a potential solution.
Also, quick aside to note the chess pieces here: the white microscope, David, is looming over the black screws, Doof. It represents how Xanatos is dominating this conversation. David picking up the screw is representative of him moving Doof closer to himself, in preparation for both promotion and for it to become a piece of his. Here, the chess metaphor gets a bit mixed up, unfortunately.
Meanwhile, Doof's responses are actually kind of interesting, here? First off, the bit about being honest being a death knell of most relationships… what's he actually referring to? Like, I guess it could be being honest with himself about his parents? But I'm not sure what else?
Second, he's looking for an angle, and, to be honest, Xanatos knows he's looking for an angle, wondering what Xanatos is up to. But he speaks anyways, because he actually does want to spill some of this stuff. Not sure who else he'd do it with, other than Technor, to be honest. Doof is fundamentally an open person, and hiding stuff isn't really how he rolls, even when he knows he should.
This is interesting, especially the last bit. At first, Doof is trying to act like he's confident, even when he knows he's not. The bit about traps is him lying to himself, and he knows it. The Roger thing, though… that's interesting, because it shows that Doof still has kind of internalized the stuff about Roger being better than him? It could also be a hint from the QMs that we should interact with Roger more.
Xanatos is being perfectly honest here, and that's… well, it's unsurprising, but it's good to know. Previously, when Doof thought he couldn't argue with what Xanatos was saying, he felt off-balance, because on some level he could tell he was being maneuvered. Doof isn't getting any sense of unease here, because Xanatos is speaking from the heart on some level.
The chess metaphor continues, Xanatos is preparing Doof for promotion, but also bringing him closer.
Also, Xanatos' hesitance is interesting. It's not real, obviously, but it's designed to create the sense that it's completely off the cuff, that he's just tossing an idea out at random, like this whole conversation hasn't been on some level manipulative.
Now, Xanatos' smile, which doesn't feel insulting. On one level, of course, it's put on. But, on another level? I think he genuinely may feel like it's not too bad a deal that he's offering, here. Sure, he's getting a look at DEI's inner workings, and he's getting a chance to really see through anything Doof does, but he's also genuinely giving Doof something pretty useful, he probably feels. I suspect, like a lot of us agree on, he doesn't actually think that this is a negative for Doof overall, even if it's nothing but upside for him.
I suspect he's also being serious when he talks about collaborating on big problems eventually.
Finally, more ellipses. Again, he's giving off the impression of being more hesitant than he really is, mirroring Doof's hesitancy when first revealing his worries to put Doof more at ease.
Here, Doof is picking up on the relevance of the objects on the counter. He doesn't know what they actually mean, but he can sense there's something there. Honestly, I might make a subvote for what to do with the screws, just because it feels right.
Now, here, he doesn't hide the trap. He knows Doof would likely realize it, and by admitting it, he gives us a feeling of security, and more importantly, control, exactly what Doof said he was lacking. It's a concession to Doof's comfort, and also avoids any future realizations.
Of course, when he says he's not trying to pressure Doof, well. He's not entirely wrong, pressure is the wrong word. Instead, it's more like he tilted the surface upon which Doof sits, leaning him towards one option unnoticeably. He has primed Doof to accept this, but he also recognizes Doof is unpredictable.
Xanatos is pitting two parts of Doof against one another: Doof's desire to have total control, against Doof's desire to not be failing, to not be bad at this. It's rather sad, but reasons beyond that will probably… not be really incorporated? Unless we're very lucky, of course. Personally, I feel like I would have been more receptive if Xanatos hadn't done all this manipulation before, and had come straight out and offered. But I'm not Doof.
So, yeah. We're kind of boxed in. The real question is… what's the important choice we already made? It's hard to actually pinpoint any one choice.
Anyways, in summary, I do feel that we shouldn't take the deal, not because it's a net negative for us (I don't think it is, especially not in Xanatos' eyes, although I do think potential bonding with Mirage shouldn't be underestimated), but because Xanatos has put us off balance and manipulated us into this position, and I feel like we're off balance enough that we shouldn't just take the deal.
Thus:
[X] Develop Your Center
-[X] Pick up the boxed in screw and use it somewhere in the Inator you're working on.
The subvote is… idk. It just feels right.
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Develop Your Center
- Location
- In a void
Sort of wondering what would happen if we well, did lock up and replace with robot double of David. Would not fool Owen and not likely but something we could do.
Or if we do have lessons we can do it in the old way. With traps around and people getting in them. Not we do need to upgrade some time
Or if we do have lessons we can do it in the old way. With traps around and people getting in them. Not we do need to upgrade some time
- Location
- The City of Tears, Hallownest
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Develop Your Center
-[X] Pick up the boxed in screw and use it somewhere in the Inator you're working on.
-[X] Pick up the boxed in screw and use it somewhere in the Inator you're working on.
- Location
- Two hours away
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Owen makes an argument that a Robo-Xanatos endangers Alexander then Puck proceeds to Occult us into oblivion.
Excellently done.
It's interesting to see that Doof has good instincts for detecting manipulation, but he doesn't know how to interpret them.
He only feels that something is wrong, that he is missing something. But he doesn't have the training and practice to analyze what is happening. (And it's quite possible that Xanatos wouldn't give him that training, because it would remove a vector of control for him.)
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BlueWerewolf25
The Dreamer
- Location
- Wouldn't You Like To Know?
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
[X] Take Xanatos' Promotion