Yeah eventually but why take unnecessary risks with a 50/50, which is being generous, when we have ways to lower the DC?
It depends. Suppose the odds are 50/50 on Turn N. We wait until Turn N+1, and spend an action on Turn N so that the DC drops (which is probably not guaranteed to succeed!). Assume it succeeds.

Now it's Turn N+1. The odds are 60/40 in our favor.

We have a 10% greater chance of succeeding the action... but there's a 50% chance that if we'd just said 'fuckit' and tried last turn that we'd be free and clear and profiting from two actions this turn.

Basically, what it comes down to is that spending AP over and over to buy down the difficulty of a task is obviously beneficial in some situations, but not beneficial in others (it's not really cost-effective to buy down the DC of something that already has an 80% chance of success, for instance).

So we should consider a variety of options here, including just taking our chances, or sacrificing Doof's personal actions to get a reroll (is that how it works?)

But a lot depends on the exact details of what next turn's action option economy looks like.
 
So in order to counter Demona hiring Macbeth as an occult advisor would be in our best interest? And when it comes down to it my long term plans include making allies with both Shego and Drossel so we have a straight shot at reclaiming Bnl wasteland. If we can all be cordial to one another then that means the center of the nation becomes a safe haven from the extremists at both coasts.
 
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Also, weren't the Wyvern Hill Clan the entire reason that he and Fox ever even met in the first place?
No. They were already seeing each other when Xanatos put together The Pack.

And? If villains win, that might mean Macbeth got his way.
Then they'd both be dead, which is sad. I'd like to run into them here if possible.

So in order to counter Demona hiring Macbeth as an occult advisor would be in our best interest?
Macbeth was living in modern times as Lennox Macduff, a Medieval scholar. He wrote a history book called Gargoyles in Celtic Legend.

I wonder what he's up to?
 
It depends. Suppose the odds are 50/50 on Turn N. We wait until Turn N+1, and spend an action on Turn N so that the DC drops (which is probably not guaranteed to succeed!). Assume it succeeds.

Now it's Turn N+1. The odds are 60/40 in our favor.

We have a 10% greater chance of succeeding the action... but there's a 50% chance that if we'd just said 'fuckit' and tried last turn that we'd be free and clear and profiting from two actions this turn.

Basically, what it comes down to is that spending AP over and over to buy down the difficulty of a task is obviously beneficial in some situations, but not beneficial in others (it's not really cost-effective to buy down the DC of something that already has an 80% chance of success, for instance).

So we should consider a variety of options here, including just taking our chances, or sacrificing Doof's personal actions to get a reroll (is that how it works?)

But a lot depends on the exact details of what next turn's action option economy looks like.
Some counterpoints I'll make are that A) The reduction we get from doing other actions is likely to be more than 10% and B) The actions we can perform to reduce the DC will very rarely only be good for that and will probably be things that we would want to do anyway

Pursuing better AI lowers the Diplomacy DC but it also allows us to improve Norm Prime, all of our Normbots and most likely pursue a better relationship with the AI in the setting, one of which is our neighbour

In my opinion the action most likely to reduce the Stewardship DC is the ACME Express Delivery one since the ability to transport things across the planet near instantaneously will almost certainly cut down on bureaucracy and will have an impact on several other Stewardship actions

And recruiting Jumba isn't just good for him increasing how likely the Learning action is to succeed he's also a Learning powerhouse with a focus on genetics, an area where we'd haven't even began to explore
 
That's fair, I highly doubt that he does but we can't be sure right now

This is true

Yeah eventually but why take unnecessary risks with a 50/50, which is being generous, when we have ways to lower the DC?

For example why rush to do the Diplomacy action next turn when we can wait one turn, get the AI improvement from the Chip and make it a far more certain thing?

I'm all for going for the Think Tank once we have Jumba since he'll almost certainly have even better Learning than Technor and with him we'll have a pretty good chance at succeeding it, especially if people spend XP on it

However I'm against "spamming" for example the Stewardship action since we have so low a chance at succeeding and there's no point in continuously wasting our Stewardship action on the desperate hope that we roll well enough to succeed

Because from my perspective we are wasting losing an action we would have had every turn we delay it, and I understand the idea of balancing lowering a DC against the advantage of getting it early. So unless we have a clear way to start lower the DC in a reasonable time from now, frankly it will end up being more efficient. And again, that's after getting us a good stewardship hero.
 
Because from my perspective we are wasting losing an action we would have had every turn we delay it, and I understand the idea of balancing lowering a DC against the advantage of getting it early. So unless we have a clear way to start lower the DC in a reasonable time from now, frankly it will end up being more efficient. And again, that's after getting us a good stewardship hero.
Oh don't get me wrong, if we get a hero that gives us a good chance at succeeding at it I'm all for going for the extra action, I just think that we shouldn't keep throwing ourselves at it just hoping that the dice side with us

Thankfully we've just made contact with someone that could be a very useful Stewardship hero in the form of Winston Deavor
 
Oh don't get me wrong, if we get a hero that gives us a good chance at succeeding at it I'm all for going for the extra action, I just think that we shouldn't keep throwing ourselves at it just hoping that the dice side with us

Thankfully we've just made contact with someone that could be a very useful Stewardship hero in the form of Winston Deavor
100% agree. We have a lot of important tasks that require personal actions like getting an occult skill and reaching out to Roger
 
Alright, so, I'm just gonna go on a couple theory rants about two of the rivalries we've seen so far. Those being Toffee vs Doom and Syndrome vs Doof. Sorry if this ends up kinda long.

To start off, let's look at why Doom hates Toffee so much. Now, it could just be normal things, like Doom being a generally hateful person or thinking that Toffee is a Toon or something, but my theory is that there's something more to it than that.

Specifically, it is my theory that Toffee is intentionally fanning the flames of Doom's grudge for him. And so, in true Doofenshmirtz fashion, I'm going to try and prove this by looking at Toffee's Backstory, Nemesis, and Scheme.

Backstory: Alright, let's just do a quick inventory of who Doom is and what reason Toffee would have for disliking him. Judge Doom was an outsider, someone who coveted the land that the Toons had called their own. To take this land, Doom gained a powerful weapon tailor-made to oppress Toons, rewriting history to make them look like the bad guys. Doom has forced the Toons off of the land they used to own, turning them into second-class citizens. Changing a few names, it almost seems like a mirror to the Monster's own suffering at the hands of the Mewmans. Now, I know what you're thinking. Toffee's a rational guy, he's able to set aside his own personal feelings to accomplish his goals. Doom seemingly reenacting the oppression his own people went through would be annoying, but not something to start a rivalry over. That brings us to our second point.

Nemesis: Or rather, what enemies does Toffee have to deal with right now? Well, let's think about it. Toffee is one of the few Kings, to be actively engaged in open warfare right now. Oh, it doesn't look like it from what we can currently see of his territory, but you've gotta remember that Toffee is currently fighting a war that spans across multiple dimensions, involving who knows how many other opponents. And Earth itself is even more precarious. We've seen that any step out of line, such as engaging in open warfare with another King, is generally going to be slapped down by every able-bodied faction within the US. Toffee really wouldn't want to set that off, so he's not coming in guns-blazing. But what if there was a way to make someone else step on that ridiculously explosive landmine? That's where part three comes in.

Scheme: It is my theory that Toffee has intentionally been provoking Judge Doom into engaging in overt action against another King, such that Toffee can come in and claim Doom's territory once he gets slapped down. Seriously, think about it. Doom is pretty much the perfect patsy for this sort of thing. For one, it's generally known that Doom has a short fuse and hates very easily. As an additional point, Doom can easily be regarded as the weakest of the Kings. His territory is the smallest, and the majority of Doom's weapons and minions are dedicated to fighting against one specific species. Plus, Doom just doesn't seem to have the numbers to actually hold any additional territory, given that he's just now making a robot army. Perfect for someone you'd want to be easily rebuffed. And for the hat trick, Doom is right next to Toffee, ensuring that Toffee would have an easy time of conquering Doom's former territory once he gets slapped down.

It's actually really important for Toffee that he be able to gain Doom's territory, and I'll detail why right here. It bears repeating that Toffee is one of the rare few Kings who's engaging in open fighting right now, and that he'd have a bad time of it if he just tried to take that approach on Earth. So if Toffee can't use his territory on Earth to engage in direct conquering, what does he use it for? Why, for feeding his ever expanding war machine so that he can defeat the opposition of other dimensions, of course! So Toffee definitely has cause to want more territory so that he can strengthen his armies, and what better way to do so than by taking Judge Doom's? Doom is small, disliked, comparatively weak, and possesses a potent economic force in Hollywood/LA.

But would Toffee actually do something like this? Well, yeah, absolutely. This is pretty much just what he does in the show: find some easily manipulated scapegoat to take the heat while Toffee sets things up from behind the scenes, and then set said scapegoat up to fail while Toffee takes their land and minions.

And while I'm speaking about Toffee, can I just say that he's an endgame threat on par with Bill Cipher? Like, seriously, think about it. We have absolutely no idea how many forces Toffee has available because he can trivially hide the full extent of his might in other dimensions. Toffee could spend literal years creating an army and weaponry sufficient to stomp every other King, and literally no one could find out about it because everything was done in an alternate dimension. While it's not quite as in-your-face as Bill "Literally a God" Cipher, Toffee still possesses a large advantage over pretty much every other King. He has access to way, way more territory than any one else, and the ultimate Anti-Intrigue tool in that he can hide all his secret projects in another dimension. We have literally no idea what Toffee is even doing at any given time, nor will we know if he's gathered up a force sufficient to conquer Earth until it's too late.


Anyway, that's all I got about Toffee. Let's talk Doof and Syndrome now.



So, we know that Syndrome dislikes Doof a fair bit, even if we don't really know why. I'm gonna try and list out a few theories/explanations for that.

1) Doof is pure Golden Age Maximum Ham, and Syndrome probably dislikes that.

2) Doof and Syndrome have opposite approaches to Evil Science. Syndrome takes one particular design/idea and then improves that over the course of years, while Doof pretty much just draws his ideas out of a hat. Additionally, Syndrome tends towards "hard" sci-fi, while Doof just casually breaks the laws of physics and goes full conceptual.

3) Doof is a weird joke and yet somehow is still matching Syndrome. Looking at the territory map, it looks like Doof and Syndrome both have around the same amount of territory. Syndrome has a huge corporation? So does Doofenshmirtz, even if Kronos might be way more successful than DEI. It could rankle Syndrome's pride a bit that a "joke villain" like Dr. D is still in the same league as him.

4) Heinz Doofenshmirtz has the life Buddy Pine always wanted. Disregarding backstory stuff from Drusselstein, Heinz is actually living a pretty good life for a supervillain. While Buddy is constantly locked up in his lair, scheming vengeance against Mr. Incredible, Heinz has managed to make genuine connections with others. Heinz has an amicably divorced wife, a loving daughter, a pack of groupies from L.O.V.E.M.U.F.F.I.N, and most importantly, an extremely great relationship with his nemesis, Perry the Platypus. And what does Buddy have? A spouse, any friends, literally any genuine connection with another living being? Nope, Buddy doesn't have jack.

Just think about it. Perry and Doof had bowling nights, went on to national tv for what was effectively couple's counseling, and even had a whole musical number about the bond that they shared. Imagine how much seething jealousy that ignited in the Mr. Incredible fanboy that was Buddy Pine. Just what he would give to have a relationship like that with Mr. Incredible, and this absolute joke gets to act like that with his own nemesis?



I dunno, just some thoughts I had about all this.
 
It's probably worth pointing out, regarding backstories, Heinz and Buddy are near polar opposites. We don't know anything about Syndrome's childhood home life, but he obviously had access to enough resources to slap together a costume and rocket boots as a kid- which might imply rich parents. Meanwhile, Doof grew up in a financially unstable home (Mr Doofenshmirtz raked in fame and fortune from Only Son, but their lawn gnome got repossessed) in Drusselstein, which is at least three centuries behind everyone else.

But that's mostly irrelevant. What matters is what drove Doofenshmirtz and Syndrome to supervillainy in the first place, and what they did with that. Buddy Pine had a single traumatic moment (being dismissed by his idol), and then dedicated his life to destroying said idol and everything he cared for. Buddy founded his megacorporation first, keeping the villainy in the background until his debut as Syndrome. Meanwhile, Heinz Doofenshmirtz suffered through an entire childhood of abuse, and even then got inspired to take over the Tri-State Area because his date suggested it. Before the tragic demise of Perry, Doof didn't even own the building DEI was working out of- that is hardly a megacorporation. Now, Doof's burying the hatchet with his hatchet with his brother- once the target of many a petty revenge scheme.

Basically, Buddy Pine's reason for supervillainy, the cause he's dedicated his entire life towards, is making Mr Incredible pay for a single slight. Heinz Doofenshmirtz has suffered many a slight, and has mostly moved past them; now he's a supervillain because... uh... it's fun and he has nothing better to do?

EDIT: Actually, it kinda reminds me of the contrast between Doof and Doof-2 (the Doof from the second dimension, who was actually successful). Doof-1 had his various backstories... and Doof-2 lost his toy train.
 
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It's probably worth pointing out, regarding backstories, Heinz and Buddy are near polar opposites. We don't know anything about Syndrome's childhood home life, but he obviously had access to enough resources to slap together a costume and rocket boots as a kid- which might imply rich parents. Meanwhile, Doof grew up in a financially unstable home (Mr Doofenshmirtz raked in fame and fortune from Only Son, but their lawn gnome got repossessed) in Drusselstein, which is at least three centuries behind everyone else.

But that's mostly irrelevant. What matters is what drove Doofenshmirtz and Syndrome to supervillainy in the first place, and what they did with that. Buddy Pine had a single traumatic moment (being dismissed by his idol), and then dedicated his life to destroying said idol and everything he cared for. Buddy founded his megacorporation first, keeping the villainy in the background until his debut as Syndrome. Meanwhile, Heinz Doofenshmirtz suffered through an entire childhood of abuse, and even then got inspired to take over the Tri-State Area because his date suggested it. Before the tragic demise of Perry, Doof didn't even own the building DEI was working out of- that is hardly a megacorporation. Now, Doof's burying the hatchet with his hatchet with his brother- once the target of many a petty revenge scheme.

Basically, Buddy Pine's reason for supervillainy, the cause he's dedicated his entire life towards, is making Mr Incredible pay for a single slight. Heinz Doofenshmirtz has suffered many a slight, and has mostly moved past them; now he's a supervillain because... uh... it's fun and he has nothing better to do?

EDIT: Actually, it kinda reminds me of the contrast between Doof and Doof-2 (the Doof from the second dimension, who was actually successful). Doof-1 had his various backstories... and Doof-2 lost his toy train.
To be fair Doof was motivated by his many slights as well, it's just that he treats them more like pet peeves than an all consuming hatred and has a very clear moral line that he would never even consider crossing
 

TL;DR Toffee is manipulating Doom into appearing more unstable and volatile than he is, with the ultimate goal of eliminating a rival and gaining his territory. Syndrome hates Doof because he's jealous of his happiness.

Excellent in-depth analysis. I think you nailed quite a few points on the head. I think it's a bit hyperbolic to say Toffee can compete with Bill, but I'd say he has a mind methodical enough to rival Xanatos. That said, I think we're in an ideal position right now - especially if you're correct. We're a joke, but evidently one competent enough to succeed. We don't challenge Toffee's feelings of supremacy. We're also integral to his plan (if this is his plan) to knock out Doom. This is something we should leverage in future - either to ally with him or take him down.

Seeing as the fruits of our labor in Echo Creek should become apparent next turn, I'd say we have a lot to consider.
 
Basically, Buddy Pine's reason for supervillainy, the cause he's dedicated his entire life towards, is making Mr Incredible pay for a single slight. Heinz Doofenshmirtz has suffered many a slight, and has mostly moved past them; now he's a supervillain because... uh... it's fun and he has nothing better to do?
so you're saying buddy sucks at character development and dooofenshmirtz is more of a chad than him? okay that makes sense
 
so you're saying buddy sucks at character development and dooofenshmirtz is more of a chad than him? okay that makes sense
The virgin Syndrome:
Is evil because his feelings were hurt once
A danger to the people around him
Doesn't have a catchy jingle
Is willing to hurt kids
Is as durable as a wet tissue paper
An egomaniac
Wears a lame and impractical cape
The Chad Doofenshmirtz:
Has an extremely traumatic childhood
Is even friends with his rival
Has tons of catchy jingles
Not willing to cross certain lines
Has taken hits that kill normal people daily
Is humble
Dresses like a pharmacist
 
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The virgin Syndrome:
Is evil because his feelings were hurt once
A danger to the people around him
Doesn't have a catchy jingle
Is willing to hurt kids
Is as durable as a wet tissue paper
An egomaniac
The Chad Dooofenshmirtz:
Has an extremely traumatic childhood
Is even friends with his rival
Has tons of catchy jingles
Not willing to cross certain lines
Has taken hits that kill normal people daily
Is humble
You forgot "Wears a cape" / "Dresses like a pharmacist".
 
>So lonely he had to steal his enemies child when he lost.
Immaturely clings to and obsesses over past relationships.
Let his personal drama infect literally everything he did.
Only wins by setting fiat.

>Married and had a daughter.
Parted with ex wife maturely and on good terms.
Never let personal drama effect his efforts to raise his daughter.
Succeeded in literally all his major goals even as a Disney antagonist and explicitly gave it up after he won, not because he regretted any of it, but to better support his daughter.
 
Norm
Norm

My core runs cold I'm wondering why I
Got booted up at all
The ashy smog clouds up my camera
And I can't see at all
And even if I could it'll all be gray
Give me a platypus to brawl
It reminds me, that it's not so bad
It's not so bad

Dear Father, I texted but got no answer
I left two messages, so could we maybe play catch later?
There may have been a problem with your radio-inator
Or maybe you're busy with most hated enemy Shego
I'd like to spend some time with you too - after all you're my creator.

But anyways, doctor, what's been up? Sir how's Vanessa?
We play DDnD, I'm a cleric so I bless her
Don't mind me I don't mean to be a stressor
I don't mean to assume
But are you busy fighting Judge Doom - I'm sorry
I do not want to distract from your plans of world domination
I know one day the tri-state area will belong to my old man
I followed your progress since you turned on my cooling fan
I got a room full of your pictures and inators man
You work well with Russ. His intrigue's very high. That's a fact
Anyways, I hope you get this dad, hit me back
Just to chat, truly yours, your secondborn
This is Norm

--------------

I put this together for some reason. It's set to 'Stan' by Eminem. If this gets interest, I might try the other verses.
 
The problem is that that trait relies heavily on us being underestimated. I'm not sure Xanatos is underestimating us anymore, and Shego may not be either.
That's not really that relevant.

Of all the kings, only shego would likely bypass our underestimation trait at this point since she knows we're both smart and competent. Xanatos while possible is unlikely to figure us out in one sitting beyond that we're a smart idiot.

But even in the worst case scenario, consider that it'll still consume the personal action of both Shego or Xanatos(or Fox) in order to bypass our trait (since normal spies might take a loooooong while before said spies realize we're actually smart AND Competent) means that we'll likely going to tie up anyone who relies solely on intrigue to stop us on action economy alone.

Recall that the DC to run intrigue on us is really high and that normal spies will report on false positives unless you can see the actual DC.

Now this isn't so broken as to win us the game. My point however is that it's very very heavily encourages turtling and gaining action economy rather then Xanatos and Shego relying on crit successes to get their scheme to work.

Also note that the DC of super high actions can be lowereed over time by various methods by simply throwing more actions into the mix.
 
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