I've don't think I've argued about putting him on National Actions even once. I've argued about getting him to start getting BH6.

Ok then fair enough.

But that means the glooms have more actual use and utility at the moment.

So let's get them this turn then Wasabi next turn.

And again national actions are a gamble

I think you mean personal actions here.

You know, Marco's been searching for Star, evidently for a while. How do we know he won't have a similar restriction to Tom if Janna winds up.recruiting him?

Then we put Marco, Janna, and tom on a team with someone with learning and diplomacy and start knocking out Felldrakes great adventure every other turn till something shakes lose.
 
I've don't think I've argued about putting him on National Actions even once. I've argued about getting him to start getting BH6.

Now you tell me in which turn we would be using the Glooms, because if we recruit them the timeline will be something like this:
1 Turn (this one): recruit the Glooms and move the Castle.
2 Turn: The Glooms have to compete against Tom, Kitsune (who gets a +15 to study the Mongolian relics we got) and Marco for the National Occult action. We get Mal.
3 Turn: Mal.
I think gathering all Hero 6 is too long term project. Like it takes 3 turn of rolodex recruitment, and then you probably need to raise Fred loyalty to 50+ so he tell you about Hiro, and then deal with Tomokiri and Globby, and even in the end you still one hero short.

Glooms maybe not be absolutely necessary, but they can provide knowledge about other dimensions. We can take them on quests there.
 
Fair enough, I just thought maybe we should mention it since Tom has such a restriction.

As for the Glooms and Mal...actually, do we even have an idea of what Mal's stats are like? There's also the possibility that he has traits similar to Temujin's unfamiliarity with modern life, due to being stuck in his own castle. But anyway...even if Mal is better than the Glooms for national actions, that still doesn't make the Glooms useless just because they might only be useful for Personal Actions. For starters, we might be able to improve their stats, and even if their personal actions need higher rolls to give us good stuff, that doesn't make them a waste of time. They have personal knowledge of other dimensions, and they'll probably be useful when we unlock our second Occult action.
 
As opposed to Wasabi who has no competition for his action slot?

Come on, drop this line of argument. It applies more to Wasabi then the glooms.

We are absolutely hurting for better Occult heros. Just getting a decent one without any odd restrictions would be nice at this point and that's not even counting all the stuff they bring with them.
People aren't picking Wasabi for national actions, although we might end up using him for one or two incidentally because his optics focus might well apply to roof-mounted lazer cannons or the Shiva lazer. The reason to get Wasabi is so that we can have a heroball to take on high DC actions and quests and unlock the new black ops team mechanic. We've had it repeatedly stressed that these have the potential to be very powerful and that BH6 has noted synergy.
But that means the glooms have more actual use and utility at the moment.

So let's get them this turn then Wasabi next turn.
Wasabi is likely to be in much more demand than the glooms, is the thing. Xanatos has already passed up a chance to recruit the glooms and didn't seem terribly interested; they've also been in NYC for months, so he either hadn't noticed them or hadn't cared that whole time. Most other Kings wouldn't have any reason to hire the glooms even if they know about them. Wasabi, however, is a specialist in a field that is known to exist who has just come off cracking fusion. I'm much more worried about him being grabbed in the near future and taken off the table.
 
You know, Marco's been searching for Star, evidently for a while. How do we know he won't have a similar restriction to Tom if Janna winds up.recruiting him?

Because he's been working as a mercenary. Although even if he does have it, it'd be the Glooms (19 Occult) vs Tom (~30 Occult Hero) and Kitsune (20 Occult or 35 if we put her to study the Mongolians relics).

But that means the glooms have more actual use and utility at the moment.

Where? Without trying to be rude, you've completely ignored my question of where (in which turn I mean) would you put them in Occult Actions so I can only think that your "more actual use and utility" means personal actions. However, as I've argued they're is a complete gamble and a terrible reason to recruit a Hero Unit.

I think you mean personal actions here.

Yes, I did. Thanks for catching that.

Then we put Marco, Janna, and tom on a team with someone with learning and diplomacy and start knocking out Felldrakes great adventure every other turn till something shakes lose.

I'd like to put Janna to study to be honest, but in any case, we can do this after getting Mal.

I think gathering all Hero 6 is too long term project. Like it takes 3 turn of rolodex recruitment, and then you probably need to raise Fred loyalty to 50+ so he tell you about Hiro, and then deal with Tomokiri and Globby, and even in the end you still one hero short.

Glooms maybe not be absolutely necessary, but they can provide knowledge about other dimensions. We can take them on quests there.

Even with just 3 they should provide a considerable bonus. In any case, if we go with the logic of getting a hero because it may be more immediately useful (and I'm not meaning the Glooms) then we'll never even start to get BH6, because there will always be a hero that may provide us short term benefits.
 
I'm going to go in order seems those are basically all the arguments that people going for the Glooms have used:

As for the Glooms and Mal...actually, do we even have an idea of what Mal's stats are like?

It's speculated that in the 40 that is the bare minimum that would let us try the Coven (albeit with 60% chances of failing).

There's also the possibility that he has traits similar to Temujin's unfamiliarity with modern life, due to.being stuck in his own castle.

Yes, he probably will have a trait like that that prevents him from going to Quests or do learning things.

But anyway...even if Mal is better than the Glooms for national actions

It's almost assured that this will be the case. The Glooms only have 19 of Occult.

that still doesn't make the Glooms useless just because they might only be useful for Personal Actions. For starters, we might be able to improve their stats, and even if their personal actions need higher rolls to give us good stuff, that doesn't make them a waste of time

Not all heroes can be improved. They'd need a Personal Action for it and they may just not have it. Just look at us, we're unable to improve our Occult Score despite really wishing we could (and this is even after getting the Manual of Witchcraft and Alchemy).

In any case, this argument basically boils down to:

-Even if their Occult Score is low we can get it higher.
-Even if their Personal Actions need high rolls they still give us good stuff.

For the first one, this basically means that they won't be useful at all until 2-3 turns later (at best) and by that time we will have Grunkle Mal. And the second one means that we will get said stuff randomly and infrequently since they need high rolls.

They have personal knowledge of other dimensions

Marco will have it too you know, same as Tom. And I really doubt they'd have a +X to exploring other dimensions trait, so I can't see any reason to think that the Glooms will have something like that.

and they'll probably be useful when we unlock our second Occult action.

This is basically saying, "If we recruit them now then we may be able to use them 4-5 turns later". That is almost a year IQ and by that time a lot of things could have happened, like the prophecy, so, and without trying to be rude, I don't think it's a good enough argument, to be honest.
 
And you are completely discounting them, seemingly because Mal MIGHT be better than them. Your arguments seem to boil down to "they aren't perfect and they might use Personal actions, so they're useless". Lets not forget that Mal wound up dying in the first place because he messed up a fire extinguishing spell!

Sure, they might not be the best, but considering their circumstances I think we can safely guarantee their loyalty if hired, they have an Occult score of 19 without any traits, which isn't the worst score, and as far as we.know they won't have any traits or restrictions on what sort of actions we can out them on. Even if we wind up getting better heroes, that still doesn't make them useless. Besides, we haven't even found out how their Crystal Ball will work. It's entirely possible that scoring will.be a national action.
 
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Where? Without trying to be rude, you've completely ignored my question of where (in which turn I mean) would you put them in Occult Actions so I can only think that your "more actual use and utility" means personal actions.

It hardly matters what turn they would be slotted into a national action. What matters is that they shouldn't have anything that would make them unavailable for a national action and would free up everyone else to quest or do personals, and in the event we don't need them on national actions their personals have the potential to be incredibly useful having synergy with our intrigue actions via the orb and our potion making via the broom.

The point is there will never be a time they aren't useful. We want Janna to work on quests and personals, we want kitsune to work to her strengths as well which seems to be as more of a field unit than just doing occult, and they are just flat out better than tobe at occult unless this next interlude goes wild.

We do not have many occult heros let alone one that doesn't have drawbacks and I can't think of a reason why the glooms would have one.

And even if we get mal in 2 turns and he is incredible the glooms still have their personals to fall back on till we unlock coven and then they are right back to being a lock for national actions again.

There is no point that they wouldn't be useful in some regard.

And I'm not saying we shouldn't get Wasabi! Just that we shouldn't get him first.

We have no shortage of learning heros so Wasabi would pretty much sit on the sidelines doing personals till we recruit enough people to make a heroball.

I'm not saying not to do that, just that the glooms have more value at this moment and should be the first hire.

Also they're kinda broke and desperate while Wasabi was probably well compensated for his work on fusion. The Glooms would most likely work for anyone right now while Wasabi could probably be fine for a bit.
 
And you are completely discounting them, seemingly because Mal MIGHT be better than them. Your arguments seem to boil down to "they aren't perfect and they might use Personal actions, so they're useless". Lets not forget that Mal wound up dying in the first place because he messed up a fire extinguishing spell!

Sure, they might not be the best, but considering their circumstances I think we can safely guarantee their loyalty if hired, they have an Occult score of 19 without any traits, which isn't the worst score, and as far as we.know they won't have any traits or restrictions on what sort of actions we can out them on. Even if we wind up getting better heroes, that still doesn't make them useless. Besides, we haven't even found out how their Crystal Ball will work. It's entirely possible that scoring will.be a national action.
It's not "we might get units with higher bonuses in the future." It's "we already have 3 of them, and are on track to get 1-2 more in the near future." And as for Mal messing up a fire extinguishing spell... yes. He's the alt!doofenshmirtz. But having his inventions often crash and burn in humorous ways hasn't prevented Doofenshmirtz from being a 38 learning omnidisciplinary scientist - which is, I'll note, the second highest learning stat we've seen of any character. I don't think there's any serious argument for expecting him to have less than 19 occult. And notably? He could also do scrying, without needing the Jay Leno crystal ball, and we already have automatic potion brewing from the coffee machines + flight from the wings and talisman. The utility their items offer would be nice to have but is not unique.
This is something I feel we absolutely need to do, with Jumba we roll +110 on any genetics related action so just not using him even one turn feels like a massive waste, he just-auto pass Large Hervivore Domestication for example. And about that, is there any reason why we aren't trying to do it this turn? It really feels like the logical continuation of our Dino tech tree path.
I'd like to do Human Genetics, so we can continue down that path; it seems like it would lead to high valuable actions like disease curing, superpowers, or letting us collaborate with Sycorax to cure Liv Amara - er, to develop a cure for a general class of patients suffering from one oddly specific malady.
It hardly matters what turn they would be slotted into a national action. What matters is that they shouldn't have anything that would make them unavailable for a national action and would free up everyone else to quest or do personals, and in the event we don't need them on national actions their personals have the potential to be incredibly useful having synergy with our intrigue actions via the orb and our potion making via the broom.

The point is there will never be a time they aren't useful. We want Janna to work on quests and personals, we want kitsune to work to her strengths as well which seems to be as more of a field unit than just doing occult, and they are just flat out better than tobe at occult unless this next interlude goes wild.

We do not have many occult heros let alone one that doesn't have drawbacks and I can't think of a reason why the glooms would have one.

And even if we get mal in 2 turns and he is incredible the glooms still have their personals to fall back on till we unlock coven and then they are right back to being a lock for national actions again.

There is no point that they wouldn't be useful in some regard.

And I'm not saying we shouldn't get Wasabi! Just that we shouldn't get him first.

We have no shortage of learning heros so Wasabi would pretty much sit on the sidelines doing personals till we recruit enough people to make a heroball.

I'm not saying not to do that, just that the glooms have more value at this moment and should be the first hire.

Also they're kinda broke and desperate while Wasabi was probably well compensated for his work on fusion. The Glooms would most likely work for anyone right now while Wasabi could probably be fine for a bit.
The point in time where they aren't useful is now. There is no point in the near future where we expect them to be the best choice for a national action. Eventually, sure, factors may well align that all the current occult heroes we're planning with are all unavailable and thus the glooms would be a notable improvement, but by that point we're also a) likely to have more of them and b) capable of having picked up the Glooms later. If we aren't going to use the Glooms until, say, July 2017, I'd much rather have recruited them in May 2017 and Wasabi now than the reverse.

This is just odd. Why would you expect the Glooms, a bunch of incompetent-presenting people from a field that most of the universe doesn't believe exists and thus won't hire them for, to be more likely to be picked up by an opposing megacorp than the incredibly talented scientist who has the ultimate resume boost of "I just cracked nuclear fusion?"
 
This is something I feel we absolutely need to do, with Jumba we roll +110 on any genetics related action so just not using him even one turn feels like a massive waste, he just-auto pass Large Hervivore Domestication for example. And about that, is there any reason why we aren't trying to do it this turn? It really feels like the logical continuation of our Dino tech tree path.
I'd prefer human genetics. I think, if we do anything dino, it should be setting up the park.
 
It hardly matters what turn they would be slotted into a national action. What matters is that they shouldn't have anything that would make them unavailable for a national action and would free up everyone else to quest or do personals, and in the event we don't need them on national actions their personals have the potential to be incredibly useful having synergy with our intrigue actions via the orb and our potion making via the broom.

The point is there will never be a time they aren't useful. We want Janna to work on quests and personals, we want kitsune to work to her strengths as well which seems to be as more of a field unit than just doing occult, and they are just flat out better than tobe at occult unless this next interlude goes wild.

We do not have many occult heros let alone one that doesn't have drawbacks and I can't think of a reason why the glooms would have one.

And even if we get mal in 2 turns and he is incredible the glooms still have their personals to fall back on till we unlock coven and then they are right back to being a lock for national actions again.

There is no point that they wouldn't be useful in some regard.

And I'm not saying we shouldn't get Wasabi! Just that we shouldn't get him first.

We have no shortage of learning heros so Wasabi would pretty much sit on the sidelines doing personals till we recruit enough people to make a heroball.

I'm not saying not to do that, just that the glooms have more value at this moment and should be the first hire.

Also they're kinda broke and desperate while Wasabi was probably well compensated for his work on fusion. The Glooms would most likely work for anyone right now while Wasabi could probably be fine for a bit.

I'd like to address this in more detail, however, I just don't have the time right now (RL things to do).

I think you're really wrong assuming that they're reliable, or maybe you didn't realize this: the Glooms have 19 Occult, this means they'd roll 23 for Occult National actions.

That is not the bonus of a reliable Hero Unit that is there to pick up the slack in case the other ones can't do it for some reason, that is the bonus of a Hero Unit we've put in said action because we've no one better and we didn't waste it and we are expecting it to not critfail.

It is also the bonus of a Hero we want to swape out for a better because one. If, for example, we recruit the Glooms and get the Coven then we wouldn't want the Glooms doing Occult Actions, we'd want a Hero with actual chances of passing said actions instead of needing a +50 of higher in a d100.
 
I'd like to address this in more detail, however, I just don't have the time right now (RL things to do).

I think you're really wrong assuming that they're reliable, or maybe you didn't realize this: the Glooms have 19 Occult, this means they'd roll 23 for Occult National actions.

That is not the bonus of a reliable Hero Unit that is there to pick up the slack in case the other ones can't do it for some reason, that is the bonus of a Hero Unit we've put in said action because we've no one better and we didn't waste it and we are expecting it to not critfail.

It is also the bonus of a Hero we want to swape out for a better because one. If, for example, we recruit the Glooms and get the Coven then we wouldn't want the Glooms doing Occult Actions, we'd want a Hero with actual chances of passing said actions instead of needing a +50 of higher in a d100.
They did roll a +10, probably trait related, and since they have artifacts that probably translate as traits...
 
They did roll a +10, probably trait related, and since they have artifacts that probably translate as traits...

This is most likely the Broom giving them a +10 in combat similar to Janna's Leopold the Terrible trait.


To get a +10 of Occult from an artifact they'd need something on the same level as Felldrake and the Broom isn't on that level or it wouldn't have gone for 3 points at the auction.

Is is the artifact, or a trait? As Tobe is probably about to show us, The Power of Love is a real thing here, even Evil Love.

In Tobe's case it's showed as his Martial score, the same happens with Jumba and Play and Experiment 625.
 
This is most likely the Broom giving them a +10 in combat similar to Janna's Leopold the Terrible trait.
Problem with that is, the broom is not a combat artifact at all. While Leopold is obviously a combat unit, the broom is focused on Occult, like potion-brewing and spell-casting. There is no earthly reason why the broom would give +10 to combat rolls and nothing else.

Is is the artifact, or a trait? As Tobe is probably about to show us, The Power of Love is a real thing here, even Evil Love.
As long as it works, makes no difference to me.
 
Problem with that is, the broom is not a combat artifact at all. While Leopold is obviously a combat unit, the broom is focused on Occult, like potion-brewing and spell-casting. There is no earthly reason why the broom would give +10 to combat rolls and nothing else.

Then they may just have a trait that increases their Occult checks in Combat or in Quest. However, there's absolutely no reason to think that they'd be having a trait that gets them +10 in Occult, because if they had such a "+10 to Occult! trait then it'd be included in their Occult score already.
 
I've said it multiple times, but the +19+10 the Glooms rolled with could have been +Hildy+Grim.

I have been convinced to recruit Wasabi this turn, even if only so that we can have him Upgrade Norm Prime with energy weapons, but we just don't know enough about the Glooms to say what exactly the bonuses are.
 
Look, if the glooms potentially have a occult at 29, because of the broom or not, that puts them about 10 points ahead of our next best occult unit.

I wanted them first when they were at 19. At 29 it's obvious how much they could help us.
 
I've said it multiple times, but the +19+10 the Glooms rolled with could have been +Hildy+Grim.

This can't be, the mechanics of a roll are 1d100+Doof's stat+ Hero Unit's stat + traits

And the Hero Unit is The Glooms, not Hildy or Grim. It can't also be the case that Hildy or Grim count as a trait (similar to Experiment 625 for Jumba) for the same reason, the Hero Unit is the Glooms. Moreover, if it was the same case as Jumba said the increase would have been added to their Occult Score directly.

Look, if the glooms potentially have a occult at 29, because of the broom or not, that puts them about 10 points ahead of our next best occult unit.

I wanted them first when they were at 19. At 29 it's obvious how much they could help us.

You're completely dismissing the chance that it wasn't a Combat bonus, a Quest Bonus, or an Occult Bonus while in Quests, jumping straight to them having a trait on the same level as Felldrake based on just 1 roll.
 
Then they may just have a trait that increases their Occult checks in Combat or in Quest. However, there's absolutely no reason to think that they'd be having a trait that gets them +10 in Occult, because if they had such a "+10 to Occult! trait then it'd be included in their Occult score already.
This is speculation. No reason the Glooms would have a trait for Combat or Quests, given what we know of them. Now, obviously, a trait will be limited by something, but what that "something" is we can't know, and guessing what it is based entirely on what would most help our argument is unhelpful for the discussion.

Look, if the glooms potentially have a occult at 29, because of the broom or not, that puts them about 10 points ahead of our next best occult unit.

I wanted them first when they were at 19. At 29 it's obvious how much they could help us.
This is incorrect. They don't have 29, they have 19+10 and we don't know what the +10 is. It might be very broad, but it might be a very specific bonus against dance-based magic. We don't know, we can't know, and it should not be taking into account as a certainty.
 
This can't be, the mechanics of a roll are 1d100+Doof's stat+ Hero Unit's stat + traits

And the Hero Unit is The Glooms, not Hildy or Grim. It can't also be the case that Hildy or Grim count as a trait (similar to Experiment 625 for Jumba) for the same reason, the Hero Unit is the Glooms. Moreover, if it was the same case as Jumba said the increase would have been added to their Occult Score directly.
That doesn't apply in this situation as they were not attached to a quest leader, other than themselves. They were working on their own. We have not seen a hero unit consisting of two people in a Quest before, so we cannot accurately say what exactly that bonus is.
 
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