Alright, it seems that this thread has really gotten intense while I was gone. I have a few things to comment on, and I'll try to keep things civil.
Also, please note that LordR left some WOG on Ao3 that covers a lot that I want to say.
Let's start with some replies.
I think a shittiest army lieutenant barely worth his pay would come with a better plan than basically "let's get the terrorists get into the city, let them spread out, grab hostages, and then we engage". I mean I'm all for protagonists doing stupid shit, but it needs to be funny. This? Waaaay too retarded, while not funny at all. It feels like a very half assed attempt to squeeze drama out of nowhere.
A simple missile strike would solve the problem while not requiring even 1% of their capabilities. It'd kill all but Siberian and Crawler, leaving those to be picked apart later. But instead it's going to be dragged for some 100-150k words in hilariously redundant battles.
If that plan has a preemptive strike on the S9 in any way, then there is a good reason this hypothetical lieutenant is not higher on the command chain. Low to mid level personnel can focus only on the problem ahead of them, but once you get to the higher levels, you must take into account long term consequences and the actions of others. I'll get into this later, but I just wanted to point that out.
Ok il be honest ive been a huge fan and defender of this fic but this problem is becoming really annoying
So right now were in chapter freaking 77 and not only do we have the abb remnants, E88, Merchants, Coils group, The teeth, The dragonslayer AND now we have the s9 into the roster. each with their own plot point going on and one way or another gonna face joe into the future
There are wayyy to many antagonists and plot points now that we have to juggle together and wait until somethign happens with them if joe finally does something
This would not be a problem for me if one of the gang was taken out but in this entire fic the only kill with his name is lung which while it was cool he was basically a mid boss grunt since march is now the de facto leader and no one else has been taken out.
And honestly with the huge buildup that is going on with the antagonist i think anyway that they will be resolved will just be in dissapointment (Just like the abb)
I still love this fic and its writting but if a gang is not being taken out soon I will be incredibly dissapointed
edit:
Also I dont mind the s9 decision of joe but honestly if he pulls a march on the s9 I might legit drop the fic and I think alot of people will too.
I think there is a disconnect here that involves time for us and time in-universe. For us, it's been years, but in universe it's been less than a month, with the UH being less than a week ago. That is a very short amount of time for all of this to happen. In this story, everyone is dynamic with factions reacting to other's actions.
Also, technically, the ABB was taken out. All of their holdings are gone with only remnants remaining. Lung may be a punching bag in fanfiction, but in universe, he's a very powerful opponent who canonically fought Leviathan to a draw.
Analysis sensors are fiat backed, so they CAN'T fail
Yes, they're also short ranged. That short range is why they're not practical for this case.
Well, there is certainly a lot of discussion from this latest chapter, even more than the previous. And I think, for good reason.
If one were to peruse my previous comments on this story, one would usually find that I am somewhat of a rabid defender of LordR against his critics. I have found this story a joy and a wonder, and particularly like several aspects that others find grating, like the long descriptions of the various perks and their interactions. Part of the reason I have been so quick to defend the story is because I was afraid that either LordR would become discouraged from negative feed back and quit/cut back on writing this story, something I have seen happen more than I care to remember on this and other boards, or else that he would change those aspects of the story I like but that others are less happy with.
Well, finally, in this latest chapter, I have found something I do not like, so am therefore going to try to explain it.
Let's start with this quote:
So, regardless of strategic or other combat-related problems, Jozef has become a person who has no visceral reaction to the slaughter of innocents, including slaughters he could prevent. He goes on from here to talk about how this is another indication of his departure from normal humanity, his lack of reacting to death and horror with empathy, rather doing so rationally and thoughtfully. However, he then goes on as part of his justification for inaction to include the reactions of others to his preemptive saving of S9's present and future victims. I'm not so sure this concern is in line with his recognized departure from humanity. He is neither Human nor Parahuman. He is Divine. If he has chosen to value his standing with the establishment over the lives of innocents, that tells us something of the kind of deity he is becoming.
Exactly. Let's see what this prominent genius has to say about the responsibilities of those who have superior medical tech:
Now, Jozef is not withholding his medical tech for money--rather, it is to maintain his reputation as someone who is uncaring of the general welfare of the populace, but who instead is focused solely on honoring his contracts, his previous commitments. So, if you want to have be healed by Apeiron the Enigmatic Artificer, best have some sort of deal planned out.
Now, previously, I at least believed this was a charade he was performing to hide how much he really cared. With these statements, however, I think he has come to embrace this performance and it is becoming who he is in fact, at his core. Such is the danger of divinity, beliefs and actions shape the reality... including esp. one's own beliefs and actions. We also see something of a slippery slope here... he is using his lack of action with regard to healing people he could heal as both precedent and excuse for allowing murders and tortures he could prevent.
I have earlier commented on how guilty I hoped/believed Jozef would feel when he finds out about Dinah, but now I see that it is just as likely he will feel little to nothing. After all, she didn't have any kind of prior contract with him. And how is her suffering and pain more important than those children Bonesaw has tortured and killed? Quite likely, in that very McMansion the S9 interlude was set in there were children suffering and dying, since Bonesaw likes to target such. And there will doubtless be many more before they reach the outskirts of Brockton Bay.
Well, I suppose it fits. Most Gods in most mythologies have moments and aspects when they are assholes. I just hoped that Jozef would become something more Benevolent as a deity.
You can't save everyone. You can try as much as you can and people will still die. Joe is trying to save as many as he can in the long run. His priorities haven't shifted, but his perspective has.
In regards to medical tech, I think there was a WOG earlier that Joe would need a large amount of soft power before releasing any medical tech for it to actually benefit society. Without that, it would be easy for various interests to ensure that it never gets used, usually by having it outlawed or bogged down in safety trials.
Sadly the best solution rarely a good story makes.
The difference is the collateral damage.
Attacking the S9 while they are on the road in their van will lead to (probably) miles of surrounded burned, irradiated or otherwise destroyed land.
Fighting the S9 in the middle of BB when they deign showing themselves, after Bonesaw made all her disease cocktails and Mannequin puts in place all his traps and other deadman-switches is probably going to end up with about the same effect on the surroundings, but inflicted on a dense populated city rather than mostly empty forest or farm-land.
The upside, as stated previously is mostly political. It's better to be seen using overwhelming force in response to a direct attack than you randomly nuking some random place all of a sudden for apparently no reason (as I doubt protag's black hole bomb or whatever would leave any identifiable bodies behind...).
Personally? i'd say the upside VERY much is NOT worth the MASSIVE loss of life his current plan will result in. All we can hope for is that protag's weekly visit to the therapist will somehow unscrew his head out off his arse and back on straight...
Then he'll have to face the Slaughterhouse six, or three, instead. Which is still a marked improvement.
Also ballistic missiles are a thing, or just using any of the myriad of portal tech he now has, there's no actual need to poke at Ziz with orbit killsats.
In this case, the political consequences vastly outweigh the potential short term gains. Going back to my earlier point, Joe must take into account the potential actions of other parties when planning his actions. As of this chapter, everyone is assuming he will not take action unless provoked. All of the precogs and thinkers see this. Once he acts contrary to this prediction without a reasonable explanation, other parties will realize he cannot be predicted. Once that happens, there is no going back.
In this case, preemptively attacking the S9 may eliminate them as a risk, but the cost will be that every other faction will panic and take action. Joe would have to deal with all of them at once, and the potential collateral damage from that is extremely high, arguably much higher than anything the S9 could do (assuming normal operations). The alternative would be to allow the S9 to come to him, in which case there would be damage, but he would have the plausible excuse that the S9 attacked him, or at least was about to. That fits with the current model of Aperion that others have, that he won't take action unless provoked.
Eventually, the fact that Joe is spoofing precogs will get out, but the longer he puts that off, the more time he has to discreetly take care of issues. That's the same reason why he's not attacking Coil immediately.
There's a lot more I want to say, but I think I'll stop after pointing out a few things.
-For those who suggest Joe just scanning for the S9, it's mentioned in chapter that the best he can manage is narrowing down to an area measured in kilometers. Also, what scanning tech are you suggesting he use? I'm not aware of any scanners he has that can manage the feats suggested. I've heard mentions of Star Trek scanners, but from my (admittedly scattered) memories of that show, the scanners were regularly blocked by weather phenomena on planets. I think parahuman concealment can do a lot better than that.
-For those who are arguing that Joe is slipping into doormat behavior, I should point out that doormat behavior is going along with someone else to make things easier. In this case, Joe has considered his options and made a decision. That is not doormat behavior. I should point out that as long as it is a conscious choice, it is not doormat behavior, even if the end action is the same.
-Joe does not have our meta-knowledge. His passenger does, but Joe has to parse that information through emotional reactions and as has been mentioned before, the passenger is both biased and lacks nuance.
-This was clarified on AO3, but LordR mentioned that Joe doesn't plan to let the S9 take any meaningful action in the city. Once they arrive, Joe can safely counter them.
