Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
these quotes seem to indicate that Joe isn't going to deploy drones asap due to suspecting bonesaw, Mannequin, and crawler can detect them.
yet in this, he states that they'll do whatever it takes to gather info on them. Which is it? is he going to send drones after them or not?
Out of all of Joe's character traits, the absolute stupidity with which he handles data collection is the only one I hate. It's been a problem from the very beginning, and when I thought it was going to get better with Survey gaining more agency, it simply did not. The fact that Joe has managed to cripple an intelligence-gathering AI would be seriously impressive if it weren't so absolutely frustrating. Why has he not been using divination? why has he not been scrying? I get that his best scanners are close range and need drones, but why hasn't he done a basic scan of the city and compared it to the city plans he's had for around a week? Worst of all Tybalt says nothing about this when information is crucial in war.
Honestly, I like his traits like his passiveness with fights, but why is he more willing to start a fight with uber and Leet in the middle of a street rather than collect info on terrorists in his workshop? He still doesn't know anything about Uber, Leet, Bakuda, or 'worse than the Endbringers' March's civilian identities as far as we know. at this point, it's not even not going out of his way to get info, but doing some crazy mental gymnastics to justify plugging his ears whenever slightly risky info is mentioned.
he acts like collecting civilian info on the 9 is a big deal when it's fully expected. are their identity's not already known?
This quote has me believe that no, he won't be spying on them with drones because even if they only had cameras, this wouldn't happen because he could literally see them. Also has he seriously not just sat down (maybe in mental acceleration) and tried to figure out the Siberian? I'm not saying it would be easy, but anybody spending the better part of 45 minutes could probably figure it out, even just by pure luck.
so yeah, this is my rant about how much I hate not only Joe's actions with regard to info, but I also feel like his scanner and other info gathering tech/magic has been nerfed to hell and back for no apparent reason other than to make things harder.
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It was addressed in chapter that Joe wasn't confident in his stealth drone, yeah. What about a spy satellite with a full ST scale sensor array that has Survey looking at and breaking down all the readings it brings in? Joe has tech that is from a couple of space opera level civs. He should be able to trivially build a sensor array that can tell a car needs an oil change from father out than the moon on passive sensors alone. Blank means that the only thing that can pick it up would be mundane tech or the mk1 eyeball.
Okay so if Apocyan provokes ambition and dreams of greatness in those who look upon it what would it inspire in various capes? What would Vista or Panacea dream about?
- Location
- USA
Am I reading this wrong and he changed his mind before the grand statement of total war to Survey?
Why risk discovery of his ultra-tech to find the S9 but not to stop them?
Sure, maybe don't glass upstate NY or whatever, but he could kill 3-4 of them at once with a perfectly normal HE bomb beamed in if he knows exactly where they are, thus saving potentially dozens of lives before they get to BB.
That would stop Jack immediately.
You know, the parahuman he must stop at all costs, except for doing something proactive himself. The rest could be cleanup that would take literally the same amount of effort as if he waits.
Really hope I'm misreading things here and this isn't just an excuse for extending the already expansive plot. The build up is fun but if you put on your stomping boots you eventually need to stomp.
Again with Blank... I blame Creed for that.
Anyway, that reminds me someone mentioned here that ST scanners capable o detecting magic, with what Survey done at the summit as an example. That's very wrong. The only scanners that detect magic (and therefore parahumans) are the ones from Analysis (Adventure Time) perk. Survey used those. They work by fiat, which means that they infallible and unupgradable. And their range is fairly low, according to Lord. As in, a bit more than summit room low.
Now, can Joe develop another magic detector, with better range? Probably. Will it be better or even on par with Analysis scanners? Nah. Nothing beats fiat. It just works.
AntaeusTheGiant
Child of Gaea
- Location
- Lawrence, KS
Well, there is certainly a lot of discussion from this latest chapter, even more than the previous. And I think, for good reason.
If one were to peruse my previous comments on this story, one would usually find that I am somewhat of a rabid defender of LordR against his critics. I have found this story a joy and a wonder, and particularly like several aspects that others find grating, like the long descriptions of the various perks and their interactions. Part of the reason I have been so quick to defend the story is because I was afraid that either LordR would become discouraged from negative feed back and quit/cut back on writing this story, something I have seen happen more than I care to remember on this and other boards, or else that he would change those aspects of the story I like but that others are less happy with.
Well, finally, in this latest chapter, I have found something I do not like, so am therefore going to try to explain it.
Let's start with this quote:
So, regardless of strategic or other combat-related problems, Jozef has become a person who has no visceral reaction to the slaughter of innocents, including slaughters he could prevent. He goes on from here to talk about how this is another indication of his departure from normal humanity, his lack of reacting to death and horror with empathy, rather doing so rationally and thoughtfully. However, he then goes on as part of his justification for inaction to include the reactions of others to his preemptive saving of S9's present and future victims. I'm not so sure this concern is in line with his recognized departure from humanity. He is neither Human nor Parahuman. He is Divine. If he has chosen to value his standing with the establishment over the lives of innocents, that tells us something of the kind of deity he is becoming.
Exactly. Let's see what this prominent genius has to say about the responsibilities of those who have superior medical tech:
Now, Jozef is not withholding his medical tech for money--rather, it is to maintain his reputation as someone who is uncaring of the general welfare of the populace, but who instead is focused solely on honoring his contracts, his previous commitments. So, if you want to have be healed by Apeiron the Enigmatic Artificer, best have some sort of deal planned out.
Now, previously, I at least believed this was a charade he was performing to hide how much he really cared. With these statements, however, I think he has come to embrace this performance and it is becoming who he is in fact, at his core. Such is the danger of divinity, beliefs and actions shape the reality... including esp. one's own beliefs and actions. We also see something of a slippery slope here... he is using his lack of action with regard to healing people he could heal as both precedent and excuse for allowing murders and tortures he could prevent.
I have earlier commented on how guilty I hoped/believed Jozef would feel when he finds out about Dinah, but now I see that it is just as likely he will feel little to nothing. After all, she didn't have any kind of prior contract with him. And how is her suffering and pain more important than those children Bonesaw has tortured and killed? Quite likely, in that very McMansion the S9 interlude was set in there were children suffering and dying, since Bonesaw likes to target such. And there will doubtless be many more before they reach the outskirts of Brockton Bay.
Well, I suppose it fits. Most Gods in most mythologies have moments and aspects when they are assholes. I just hoped that Jozef would become something more Benevolent as a deity.
If one were to peruse my previous comments on this story, one would usually find that I am somewhat of a rabid defender of LordR against his critics. I have found this story a joy and a wonder, and particularly like several aspects that others find grating, like the long descriptions of the various perks and their interactions. Part of the reason I have been so quick to defend the story is because I was afraid that either LordR would become discouraged from negative feed back and quit/cut back on writing this story, something I have seen happen more than I care to remember on this and other boards, or else that he would change those aspects of the story I like but that others are less happy with.
Well, finally, in this latest chapter, I have found something I do not like, so am therefore going to try to explain it.
Let's start with this quote:
So, regardless of strategic or other combat-related problems, Jozef has become a person who has no visceral reaction to the slaughter of innocents, including slaughters he could prevent. He goes on from here to talk about how this is another indication of his departure from normal humanity, his lack of reacting to death and horror with empathy, rather doing so rationally and thoughtfully. However, he then goes on as part of his justification for inaction to include the reactions of others to his preemptive saving of S9's present and future victims. I'm not so sure this concern is in line with his recognized departure from humanity. He is neither Human nor Parahuman. He is Divine. If he has chosen to value his standing with the establishment over the lives of innocents, that tells us something of the kind of deity he is becoming.
Exactly. Let's see what this prominent genius has to say about the responsibilities of those who have superior medical tech:
Now, Jozef is not withholding his medical tech for money--rather, it is to maintain his reputation as someone who is uncaring of the general welfare of the populace, but who instead is focused solely on honoring his contracts, his previous commitments. So, if you want to have be healed by Apeiron the Enigmatic Artificer, best have some sort of deal planned out.
Now, previously, I at least believed this was a charade he was performing to hide how much he really cared. With these statements, however, I think he has come to embrace this performance and it is becoming who he is in fact, at his core. Such is the danger of divinity, beliefs and actions shape the reality... including esp. one's own beliefs and actions. We also see something of a slippery slope here... he is using his lack of action with regard to healing people he could heal as both precedent and excuse for allowing murders and tortures he could prevent.
I have earlier commented on how guilty I hoped/believed Jozef would feel when he finds out about Dinah, but now I see that it is just as likely he will feel little to nothing. After all, she didn't have any kind of prior contract with him. And how is her suffering and pain more important than those children Bonesaw has tortured and killed? Quite likely, in that very McMansion the S9 interlude was set in there were children suffering and dying, since Bonesaw likes to target such. And there will doubtless be many more before they reach the outskirts of Brockton Bay.
Well, I suppose it fits. Most Gods in most mythologies have moments and aspects when they are assholes. I just hoped that Jozef would become something more Benevolent as a deity.
If you have the ability to fix any problem, but not every problem, you have two options:
- Decide that most problems aren't your responsibility even if you could solve them
- Be perpetually crushed under the weight of guilt
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AntaeusTheGiant
Child of Gaea
- Location
- Lawrence, KS
Or, you could find a balance between the two.. which is what I hope most people of conscience do in real life as well. As a moderately successful person (because of those two full time jobs), I could donate almost all of my money to charity and live like I did 30 years ago when I had almost nothing. Or, I could just ignore the problems of the world and spend my money and time solely on my own interests. But instead of either of those things, I do as much as I can to live in moderate comfort and support as many worthy causes with action and money as I can. Jozef, on the other hand, seems to have made the perfect the enemy of the good. Rather than help as many people as often as he can, he awaits the perfect moment to achieve the ultimate victory.
As is appropriate for someone becoming a God of Pride rather than one of Mercy.
Yeah that's kind of a huge part of his character and has been since the beginning. More then any space worm Joe's biggest problem is his own neurosis.
Gumiho
Reach heaven through violence!
Yeah, i can assure you that most people are more concerned with their own needs and wants that of the the general population. A large number of us live paycheck to paycheck.
- Location
- USA
It certainly reads like a heel-turn in this chapter.
- Location
- Nowhere
In the end it is a character flaw, apart of who Joe is and it makes the story and the character feel that just more real.
- Location
- London
I personally think you're being too critical here, it's already been stated multiple times that Joe will eventually start working beyond the city, and this will likely involve medicine. However if he tried to do it now it simply wouldn't work. People believe he's a barely stable neurotic wreck who is intensely mercenary, so any free treatment he wants to give the world would likely be looked at with heavy suspicion at best.
At the end of the day Joe needs to earn trust from the public if he wants to start helping in that manner, because trying to force these things will only ruin the attempt.
Also, the logical and cold way he goes through slaughterhouse casualties has absolutely nothing to do with being divine. That's frankly human behaviour. Most people only barely care about others when they don't know them, and never in an emotional sense. Furthermore Joe is doing this in order to ensure more lives don't end, which is, again, a fairly human sentiment.
Yeah. I'm sure there are a lot of people who help others while taking care of their own comforts. But there are even more people who would solely focus on their own interests without caring about the world. Unless you shove people's suffering in their face via news and social media they don't really care.
I'm most likely in the latter portion. That's part of why, I'm not bothered by Joe's actions. Because if I had to choose to let people die by S9 while preparing to utterly annihilate them, I'd do it. I wouldn't be pro-active in this case.
Because there are enough people in the world who'll try to spin this as "Oh S9 wouldn't have gone to Brockton Bay if Apieron hadn't attacked them first". Basically anything that will give them control over him will be used.
After S9 arrive at BB and start a fight and Joe destroys them, the reactions will be - "Oh S9 came looking for a fight and Apeiron destroyed them. He wouldn't have done anything and stayed inactive if S9 hadn't come". There will still be lots of people who'll try to vilify Joe but to most it will be clear that Apeiron didn't start this fight.
It's morally wrong sure. But this decision is in Joe's best interest.
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- Pronouns
- He
As long as Ziz is alive, satellites are a no-no.
Which is why we need to roll the Kerbal perk, so we can have a team of reckless immortal astronauts planning her downfall.
AntaeusTheGiant
Child of Gaea
- Location
- Lawrence, KS
Is this truly how most people feel? It is completely alien to everything I have experienced or believed in my entire life. I had thought I was beyond being disillusioned at my age. I always assumed such people were aberrations and not "most people".
Which is what Joe did - he drew that line at the city limit.
Gumiho
Reach heaven through violence!
Them you have lived a very privelieged life due to not having to experience what most do.
Razauq
Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
- Location
- Valinor
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's absolutely not how most people feel. It's fair to say most people are focused on people they know, but it's absurd to say they never feel emotional about strangers or acquaintances. And in my experience people who don't have a lot are the most likely to reach out and help others.
The funniest thing about criticizing Joe's passiveness this chapter is that Lord is actually writing Joe taking decisive action.
Somehow Joe realizes that Jack Slash influences any parahuman and needs to hide any information from Aisha, but can't discover that Siberian is a projection.
- Location
- Auckland
There is another reason why Joe isn't trying to off the Slaughterhouse 9 in secret- as all members of the S9 have a kill order, the CF would be able to collect the bounties if it becomes known the CF killed the Slaughterhouse Nine.
Joe: Right, we've detected the Nine, let's get Aisha in-
Fandom shard, sending emotions: PANIC DEATH MURDER HELL NO NO NO
Joe: ... let's NOT get Aisha involved.
This is the setting the 600 point Gadgetteer perk comes from.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbTV4M0MUoI
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbTV4M0MUoI