Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Watching the arguments whether Joe should or shouldn't attack early is amusing.

In the end it doesn't matter because it's up to Lord how he gonna write the next chapter.
 
You see, if a black box is just a weird black box, then there is absolutely no enchantments on it, it is imbued with no parahuman powers, it is just a black box. That's it, there is nothing else to it. It's completely useless by itself. But if a certain shard, was programmed to do something on an event attributed to that black box? Well, it would have nothing to do with that black box. How the hell would Joe scan for it? It's not that the shard in question even only paying attention to that black box. It's looking at a wide area around his parahuman. And there are lots of shards that are surveying that area. The hell should Joe do about it? Hypothetically.
Scan the item when it does its thing? If it does something, that energy to do it comes from somewhere. That would be a connection between the Shard and the Item, probably with paras in-between. If the item constantly does its thing (like a force field generator, or a droid) then finding it or a parahuman that crated it would be easy.

It feels like we're talking less about tunkertech here, and more about projection powers. Like things that Manton and Genesis do, only with item involved as anchor for power.
 
No, you literally have to scan only Jack's ass to see if he has some surprises hidden in his body or if his power is more than he lets people know (I mean last is true but not in the way Joe thinks). Also, thats why his destruction should be absolute: so he has no time to supposedly use his trump card. And remember, Joe knows that Jack wont do THE THING in near future because his passenger is not yelling at him to hurry up and start assault.
And he knows that Jack got no doomsday device stashed somewhere exactly how? You are liberally throwing stones about metaknowledge, but maybe apply that to your own thinking?

Ok, you are have no idea how S9 operates, gotcha.
Lol. No, I don't know how they operate. You also don't know how they operate. There literally wasn't enough information in canon to speak of this. You only ever see select stages of preparation and action. All we have are reasonable guesses. And to use bonesaw pre-prepared puppets would make a lot of sense.

You also have no idea how tinkers operate, gotcha x2. In case of Bonesaw, oh man, you terribly underselling what marvels can Riley do with DMS. Email? Dont make me laugh, her DMS probably checks for neuron signals or change of chemicals in bloodstream.

The thing is, it also falls under blind assault. You try to off Bonesaw without knowing what shit she put into her own body - you begging for COVID-2219. And scanning as part of attack sequence wont really work because to scan them in the first place Joe has to pinpoint them, and pinpointing them IS major risk Joe is not willing to take. I did write about it already previously dammit.
Actually you are really wrong about this. Email failsafe is a much harder to crack. In fact it's pretty much impossible, if you don't have a way to torture that information out of person. Anything Bonesaw can do to her body are many orders of magnitude more likely to fail.

After all, its just object imbued with shard's power
That's magic thinking. Object is imbued with nothing. There is nothing connecting it to a shard. Shard is simply scanning a large area, and if it finds something that resembles that object, AND the big red button it pressed on it, THEN it does SOMETHING.
 
That's magic thinking. Object is imbued with nothing. There is nothing connecting it to a shard. Shard is simply scanning a large are, and if it finds something that resembles that object, AND the big red button it pressed on it, THEN it does SOMETHING.
That just usual parahuman powers with extra steps. Should not be any harder to scan than usual. What the difference if death laser comes from hand or metal cylinder with red button on it.
 
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Honestly Joe letting the S9 come to him makes sense in my eyes. It's far easier to portray such a fight as reactive to the rest of the world, and the more time he has to research and scan them then the more sure he can be of permanently putting them down.

Contrast this with an S9 that's attacked far away from the city meaning they have a higher chance of surviving and the entire world gets shown that everything that they know of Apeiron is terribly terribly wrong. After that any stability he may have been seen with is destroyed and the crazies will be coming after him for the bounty. Which will consist of hundreds of people with their powers and morality being far less certain then that of the S9.

Essentially Joe is sacrificing maybe one hundred lives top and the initiative in order to be far more certain of the S9's deaths and the continuation of global stability and his long term goals. Seems fair in my eyes.
 
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That just usual parahuman powers with extra steps. Should not be any harder to scan than usual. What the difference if death laser comes from hand or metal cylinder with red button on it.
How are you going to know that the object in question is anything relevant? It's just a pebble, after all. You scanned it. No weird lasers inside, no energy emissions, nothing at all. It's not connected to anything. It's one of like 200 of similar shape spread thru the city.

How are you supposed to know, that when a big red button on some un-device is pressed, there are going to be plagues released into air around all those 200 pebbles?
 
And he knows that Jack got no doomsday device stashed somewhere exactly how? You are liberally throwing stones about metaknowledge, but maybe apply that to your own thinking?

Because even if he has, with no remote way to use it will do no good to him. Duh. And no, DMS is still has to emit signal so Joe WOULD see on scans and plan around it.

Actually you are really wrong about this. Email failsafe is a much harder to crack. In fact it's pretty much impossible, if you don't have a way to torture that information out of person. Anything Bonesaw can do to her body are many orders of magnitude more likely to fail.

Super underselling tinkers and how bullshit they are, gotcha. Also, Joe is about to tackle impossible computing problems. I have many, MANY doubts he wont find a way to deal with it. Oh and it still requires some check in from person so scans or hacking S9 phones and whatnot still will show it.

That's magic thinking. Object is imbued with nothing. There is nothing connecting it to a shard. Shard is simply scanning a large are, and if it finds something that resembles that object, AND the big red button it pressed on it, THEN it does SOMETHING.

...you do realize that the sole fact of this box's existence is dead giveaway and Joe will plan around it, right? Also, I dont really recall this being the way tinkertech works: I would have to ask for a quote of Worm/Ward or Wildbow's WoG. Also also, who told you Joe's scanners can't breach that blackbox and see whatever the fuck shard doing with it?

But I really dont remember tinkertech being like this. Sure, Shard does all heavy lifting, but he does it directly, so far wiki and quotes support it.

How are you going to know that the object in question is anything relevant? It's just a pebble, after all. You scanned it. No weird lasers inside, no energy emissions, nothing at all. It's not connected to anything. It's one of like 200 of similar shape spread thru the city.

How are you supposed to know, that when a big red button on some un-device is pressed, there are going to be plagues released into air around all those 200 pebbles?

Yeah, ok chief, now I absolutely need a quote or I calling bullshit on that one. There's still must be some sort of marker, otherwise this scheme just not possible, shards are bullshit but generally they obey physics. Fuck, even with god miracles and literal magic there STILL will be some sort of trace on this theoretical peddle. It might be well hidden but it WILL be there.
 
So, let's assume they came to BB and Joe scanned them. And unexpectedly, the scan failed. What now? Attack blindly? Do nothing, while working around the 'good intelligence' while S9 kills half of BB in their opening moves, and then act, after new scanners are made? That sounds like a grand plan. I mean, yeah, nothing could go wrong.


Maybe not, irrelevant, point still stands.


And this all would only matter if attacking them earlier would cost him in terms of ability to attack them later. It wouldn't. He can try multiple times, without as much as paying attention to the tries. That's why the earlier he begins, the better are his chances of offing them cleanly. And I'm speaking of the full attack sequence. If scan is a part of it, then it would be a part of it either way.
He attacks once they turn around.
 
Now you face the consequences, of giving S9 time to plant them.
Why would I let them plant them in the city?

And here we are, at the start of the conversion. I ask again. Why do you think that Joe's strategic plan is to "get the terrorists get into the city, let them spread out, grab hostages, and then engage"? Quote from the chapter, please.
 
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Setting aside the very contentious issue of Joe's decisions regarding The Slaughterhouse Nine, I am quite confused by this part.
I could finally start breaking Bakuda's encryptions
We have just seen Joe connect to and use the computer with Spiriton Computing to send off The CFS Final Frontier. If the computer upgrade they had been waiting for has been completed and their ability to help the people still held as hostages by the horrific bombs of Bakuda has dramatically increased, I would expect someone who wanted to help would assign someone to that task, like say a clone. While it could just be that Lord didn't mention it, the fact that Joe thinks to himself that he can "finally start" breaking it lies contradictory.

They have been discussing the plans to go into the computer to have a year or more of practice, and while I have no idea how resource-intensive for the computer that would be, I am pretty sure it will affect the speed of the encryption-unraveling. Seems like an odd move when you can get started on that thing you were looking forward to and are very invested in, with literally hundreds of lives subject to your breaking of that encryption.

While it is true that in real-life-time the lesson/year would not be that long, but putting the training ahead of nullifying the threat of Bakuda setting off the bombs seems unwise when they have no concrete leads or idea of what Bakuda is up to other than trying to cure her cancer. For all they could know, as Joe seems averse to acting on incomplete information, she'll start setting the bombs off the very next minute.

I am keeping in mind that Lord could just have kept repeating the same line that has been going on for some of the previous chapters and didn't notice the fact that Joe should already be working on it. Still, if it was not a mistake, Joe's prioritization skills are mighty suspect.
 
I've been reading the arguments for both sides and both do have valid points. The main reason I want to see the S9 come to Brockton Bay is due to wanting to see how the story of Apeiron dealing with a complicated situation. Having Apeiron teleport and kill the S9/Coil/Ziz in a single paragraph could be done but that's not the story I want to read.
 
While it is true that in real-life-time the lesson/year would not be that long, but putting the training ahead of nullifying the threat of Bakuda setting off the bombs seems unwise when they have no concrete leads or idea of what Bakuda is up to other than trying to cure her cancer. For all they could know, as Joe seems averse to acting on incomplete information, she'll start setting the bombs off the very next minute.
Well, its mostly because there's no threat of Bakuda blowing up bombs. Its the only thing keeping her alive after all. If Dragon is convinced that DMS cant be broken through, Bakuda arrogant bitch she is all One Morbillion % sure she is in no danger from that direction.
 
We have just seen Joe connect to and use the computer with Spiriton Computing to send off The CFS Final Frontier. If the computer upgrade they had been waiting for has been completed and their ability to help the people still held as hostages by the horrific bombs of Bakuda has dramatically increased, I would expect someone who wanted to help would assign someone to that task, like say a clone. While it could just be that Lord didn't mention it, the fact that Joe thinks to himself that he can "finally start" breaking it lies contradictory.

They have been discussing the plans to go into the computer to have a year or more of practice, and while I have no idea how resource-intensive for the computer that would be, I am pretty sure it will affect the speed of the encryption-unraveling. Seems like an odd move when you can get started on that thing you were looking forward to and are very invested in, with literally hundreds of lives subject to your breaking of that encryption.
My guess is that the amount of processing power to simulate learning from the book is so negligible as to not mater now that the computer is up and running. Also the duplicates and computer core Survey will probably be working on breaking the encryption during that time.
 
Setting aside the very contentious issue of Joe's decisions regarding The Slaughterhouse Nine, I am quite confused by this part.
No joke. That, the longest conversation I had on the forum.

Anyway, as Joe was breaking Backuda's encryption way back, even before Dragon's interluder, where it was properly mentioned, I'm pretty sure that Joe means that he can do it properly now that he has "decent" computer. Also, the fact that one of the duplicates always sits on the diamond chair and decodes was mention a couple of times before, so it's probably the same here. Besides, spiritron computer is a mighty thing, so there is no reason for it to be unable to decode dead man's switch and facilitate training without detriment to any process.
 
Well, its mostly because there's no threat of Bakuda blowing up bombs. Its the only thing keeping her alive after all. If Dragon is convinced that DMS cant be broken through, Bakuda arrogant bitch she is all One Morbillion % sure she is in no danger from that direction.
That is just relying on what they expect Bakuda to do. Relying on someone demonstrated to be extremely unstable to not flip the board on a whim/final-fuck-you is undesirable. And it's not like the only reason she would press the switch is that someone is cracking it.

Edit: It is also possible that I'm hung up on this issue because I want something to be wrapped up in the story. Lol.
 
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Because even if he has, with no remote way to use it will do no good to him. Duh. And no, DMS is still has to emit signal so Joe WOULD see on scans and plan around it.
Super underselling tinkers and how bullshit they are, gotcha. Also, Joe is about to tackle impossible computing problems. I have many, MANY doubts he wont find a way to deal with it. Oh and it still requires some check in from person so scans or hacking S9 phones and whatnot still will show it.
Just google how Dead Hand systems work. Please. Seriously. I'm trying to explain the concept for way too long. It's supposed to be common knowledge. Maybe read it in your native language, I promise, it will make sense if you get to it.

...you do realize that the sole fact of this box's existence is dead giveaway and Joe will plan around it, right? Also, I dont really recall this being the way tinkertech works: I would have to ask for a quote of Worm/Ward or Wildbow's WoG. Also also, who told you Joe's scanners can't breach that blackbox and see whatever the fuck shard doing with it?
The big black box with red button? It's an example. If you wanted to obfuscate the value of the object, you'd make it inconspicuous. It could be anything, and button wouldn't look like a button.

Yeah, ok chief, now I absolutely need a quote or I calling bullshit on that one. There's still must be some sort of marker, otherwise this scheme just not possible, shards are bullshit but generally they obey physics. Fuck, even with god miracles and literal magic there STILL will be some sort of trace on this theoretical peddle. It might be well hidden but it WILL be there.

Yes, there will be something. But you will not know to identify that this something has any relevance. There are a lot of pebbles with different chemical markers on them in any city. All pebbles have different chemical markers on them. There are lots of similar groups. You can't look at one of them and just decide that it's more suspicious than it's neighbors, because of it. And pebble, specifically? It's only one example.

Why would I let them plant them in the city?
You won't. But they'll leave some on their way, send some via mail, use their non-zombie infiltrators to plant some others. And so on.
 
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That is just relying on what they expect Bakuda to do. Relying on someone demonstrated to be extremely unstable to not flip the board on a whim/final-fuck-you is undesirable. And it's not like the only reason she would press the switch is that someone is cracking it.

Edit: It is also possible that I'm hung up on this issue because I want something to be wrapped up in the story. Lol.

True, that is risky but as pointed out above, one clone passively tries to deal with Bakuda's DMS anyway and as far as I understand its not really computing power, its like spiritron computer generally being able to solve unsolvable problems that matters.

Also, understandable lol
 
For fuck's sake, Tronax! There is another question in the post you replied to. Answer to it, coward!
Lol. I already answered to it. I think it was in my second message. In short: if S9 get close, there is no guarantee that they will be stopped before they begin. Which will turn into that scenario.
 
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Just google how Dead Hand systems work. Please. Seriously. I'm trying to explain the concept for way too long. It's supposed to be common knowledge. Maybe read it in your native language, I promise, it will make sense if you get to it.
Ok. You know what, I giving up on you. I well aware how these kinds of system works. Joe CAN deal with them, he HAS methods. If there's some sort of trigger S9 have to routinely activate Joe WILL find out one way or another. That trigger logically must be all time be in their hands otherwise its not DMS, its just fucking ticking time bomb, a whole different beast. Logically, its some sort of technology, like, ughhhh, mail. Introducing, Survey who can hack their tech with divine authority. Done.

Yes, there will be something. But you will not know to identify that this something has any relevance. There are a lot of pebbles with different chemical markers on them in any city. All pebbles have different chemical markers on them. There are lots of similar groups. You can't look at one of them and just decide that it's more suspicious than it's neighbors, because of it. And pebble, specifically? It's only one example.

Thats just not how things work at all. Pebble analogy at this level falls apart. Shards wont live some chemical marker (or if will it will be anything but discreet marker; they NEED to know what and when activate for fucks sake! And not to mix it up with some other shard's chemical marker, it HAS to be unique or IT JUST WONT WORK), its more likely be some sort of energy signature WHICH JOE IS PERFECTLY ABLE TO DETECT

Oh, and I still waiting on quote. At this point I really suspect you just straight up making shit up

Ugh, I am going to sleep, see y'all in 6 to 8 hours.
 
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Ok il be honest ive been a huge fan and defender of this fic but this problem is becoming really annoying

So right now were in chapter freaking 77 and not only do we have the abb remnants, E88, Merchants, Coils group, The teeth, The dragonslayer AND now we have the s9 into the roster. each with their own plot point going on and one way or another gonna face joe into the future

There are wayyy to many antagonists and plot points now that we have to juggle together and wait until somethign happens with them if joe finally does something

This would not be a problem for me if one of the gang was taken out but in this entire fic the only kill with his name is lung which while it was cool he was basically a mid boss grunt since march is now the de facto leader and no one else has been taken out.

And honestly with the huge buildup that is going on with the antagonist i think anyway that they will be resolved will just be in dissapointment (Just like the abb)

I still love this fic and its writting but if a gang is not being taken out soon I will be incredibly dissapointed

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Also I dont mind the s9 decision of joe but honestly if he pulls a march on the s9 I might legit drop the fic and I think alot of people will too.
 
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