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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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LordRoustabout said:
The seconds dragged on as Jack pondered the information in front of him, the prospects and potential that Brockton Bay presented. A chance to seize back national attention from a budding beacon of hope was exactly the kind of thing Jack would seek out, but not at the cost of the team's safety.
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Who feels that Apeiron or Brockton Bay are 'beacons of hope'? Everyone is now realizing just how much a crap hole BB is, and Apeiron and his team scares the crap out of everyone, save maybe a few exceptions like the C53s and Uppercrust.

I will admit that Cherish look of utter disbelief is going to be hilarious considering how much Joe can change by the time the 9 get there.
LordRoustabout said:
"And they will never see us coming."
...
"Yeah, the Slaughterhouse Nine is definitely coming to Brockton Bay." I said as I finished reviewing Survey's analysis.
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I admit, this made me chuckle.
 
Staff Notice - Rule 2: The word ‘retarded’ is an slur, and has no place on Sufficient Velocity.
I think a shittiest army lieutenant barely worth his pay would come with a better plan than basically "let's get the terrorists get into the city, let them spread out, grab hostages, and then we engage". I mean I'm all for protagonists doing stupid shit, but it needs to be funny. This? Waaaay too retarded, while not funny at all. It feels like a very half assed attempt to squeeze drama out of nowhere.

A simple missile strike would solve the problem while not requiring even 1% of their capabilities. It'd kill all but Siberian and Crawler, leaving those to be picked apart later. But instead it's going to be dragged for some 100-150k words in hilariously redundant battles.
 
So Joe, despite all his perks, resources, tech, magical bullshit powers and how fast he advances his tech, can't find the S9. Yeah, no way do I believe that for a second.

Letting S9 into BB is the single dumbest move you can ever make. Not only does it needlessly put people's lives at risk, but if you want to destroy them as a concept, you have to take away their respect or fear, reducing the S9 to a joke or a circus—something that people would meme about years later.

You could achieve what you want by life streaming their defeat or hijacking a tv network and showing their defeat on national television.

I mean, if we're going by cold logic and no restraints, would it not be a better idea to duplicate joe and send his clones after the nine to slow them down and see what they can do, or a robot army or something?

Letting innocent lives feels like pragmatism for the sake of pragmatism, and having the S9 be a threat to joe in any way feels like it was because "well, the S9 was a major threat in the original, so they have to be here." The only way I can see them being a threat to joe is if they all suddenly got power-ups.
 
To the discussion of 'why is joe even letting them close on the city' - one is that he doesn't actually know where they are yet. If Survey actually manages to find them, that plan might change.

To the whole thing regarding life-saving fist... isn't this in direct contradiction with the soldier training he got from one of his earlier powers - which is why he was willing to take Headshots at Uber/Leet during the big battle? He's not going to be approaching a fight with the nine like a martial arts match - he's going to be approaching it as a solider, because any confrontation with the S9, to an inhabitant of Earth Bet, is going to be a war.

I am disappointed that Tybalt didn't push back on the 'wait for them' approach, but again we'll see about 24 hours worth of time in the next 2 hours and it's likely all plans will change once Survey actually finds the 9.
 
After thinking about it a few moments, I'm finally glad that Joe didn't nuke S9 right now. Even if it push him in a disadvantage.
Right now Joe can curbstomp everyone, even Zion. its too easy and make a poor story.
Joe need to be challenged to make a good story
 
The past few pages have just been people complaining about Joe setting an ambush for S9 due to bias caused by metaknowledge and people explaining that it's actually a sensible in-universe decision due to unknowns and Joe not wanting to risk his global standing and would lead to a better story, can we just give it a rest already? Seriously, the thread's been on nothing else but this.

No one wanna talk about how Spiritron Computing is finally online? Or how they now have a MOUNTAIN SIZED SPACESHIP actually delving into shardspace interactions? Or the fact that he can now deploy warp effects safely, or how Mystic Forge countercrafting combined with infinite ideas for gadgets/solutions is an insane conceptual combo?
 
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tronax said:
I think a shittiest army lieutenant barely worth his pay would come with a better plan than basically "let's get the terrorists get into the city, let them spread out, grab hostages, and then we engage"
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Give me a quote from the chapter, that gave you this impression. As opposed to: "We will let them get closer, and when they start to prepare for their attack, we will ambush them without letting them do anything."
"No." I said calmly. "Jack and the Slaughterhouse Nine are our highest priority targets. We're taking no chances here. Let them commit to their attack, and then we wipe them out, all at once."



Survey nodded, but brought up accounts of previous cities targeted by the Nine. "The Slaughterhouse Nine does not engage in open, public confrontation unless field conditions are heavily aligned in their favor. This is primarily accomplished by targeting civil centers in the aftermath of recent disasters and further compromising them through the widespread use of Shaterbird's power, but generally speaking additional countermeasures are deployed to compromise local responses. These typically involve biological agents deployed by Bonesaw, but can be as mundane as an extensive campaign of terror or hostage taking. It is almost certain that they will attempt a similar course of action in Brockton Bay."



"We won't let them."
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TheWintersDragon said:
So Joe, despite all his perks, resources, tech, magical bullshit powers and how fast he advances his tech, can't find the S9. Yeah, no way do I believe that for a second.
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Give me a quote from the chapter, that gave you this impression. As opposed to: "I can find them anytime"
That raised a serious concerns. I could probably narrow down the Nine's location to a general area, less than a hundred miles. It wasn't certain, and I wouldn't be sure they were all present, but at least the less subtle members of the team would be there.
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Mesaphrom said:
Him calling an alien space where the laws of physics and basic geometry are just a beaten down suggestion "non-eucledian" though, complete murder of suspension of disbelief. Can't believe our boi Joe went to the Lovecraft School of Mathematics, for shame :V
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It irked me too at first but then I realized that term "non-euclidean" at this point went down in history as synonymous to "impossible" when attached to word "geometry". So eh, it's the same as we don't say search it, we say google it despite the fact you might be using totally different search engine (also it makes Google mad so keep it up)
 
BRDman said:
Can someone please remind those of us without good memories, and haven't played the game, what apocyan does? :???:
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It make Garment moist.

It's an Eldritch color that make you remember, which I find fairly stupid for a cat-suit.

TheGolden said:
Right now Joe can curbstomp everyone, even Zion. its too easy and make a poor story.
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HAHAHA NO. Should I remember you the word of the passenger, assuming the full Forge unlock ?

I had been able to evaluate my chances against various other S-class threats. There was always a point where I would eventually be able to handle the challenge. For something like the Three Blasphemies it was actually a lower investment than what I'd need for an Endbringer. To counter Sleeper it was significantly higher, but there was always a point, some level of investment into my power where I could handle things without risk.

So I thought, whatever Taylor will do, whatever she's meant to counter, I should be able to handle that, right?

Wrong.

Even with the entire forge behind me my passenger was only willing to give me long odds against whatever this threat was. Everything I would be able to build, everything I would be capable of, and he couldn't' guarantee I'd be able to handle it. Without Taylor I would be better off fleeing to another solar system then trying to step into her shoes.
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And it make sense, really. The Entities are big and used to fight. They use bullshit abilities like Sting. They have their own dimension (so without dimension tech, forget about it really). They were only defeated in Worm because Taylor bullied Scion to death, so we don't exactly know how powerful they are, but Scion trivially erased a country at the start of the fight.

Also, even if Joe can win against Scion, there's the question of defeating him without annihilating the rest of the human population in the process.
 
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insertname099 said:
The past few pages have just been people complaining about Joe setting an ambush for S9 due to bias caused by metaknowledge and people explaining that it's actually a sensible in-universe decision
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Actually it's precisely the opposite. With metaknowledge, you can allow S9 come close to a city full of civilians without trying anything, because you already know how to defeat them, and there will be no horrible surprises during ambush. Without it? No, you absolutely can't. You don't know their abilities. You want to strike at them as many times as possible before they get to hostages, to at least gather data, to better understand their capabilities. Don't get me wrong, that would be a reasonable thing to do, which means Joe will not do it, because he's... well, Joe. But to outright plan to make a show out of S9 defeat around civilians? That's way too dumb even for him.

Slentoru said:
Give me a quote from the chapter, that gave you this impression. As opposed to: "We will let them get closer, and when they start to prepare for their attack, we will ambush them without letting them do anything."
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Again, the guy has no metaknowledge. For all he knows, he wouldn't able to stop them because something he didn't anticipate happened.
 
tronax said:
Again, the guy has no metaknowledge. For all he knows, he wouldn't able to stop them because something he didn't anticipate happened.
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Isn't that precisely the reason for why he chose to wait and prepare? To find information and prepare technology and team for decisive victory? Are you defending his choice now????

Oh... Wait... You want Joe to attack S9 multiple times right NOW. Without any idea of their capabilities. So that they can be alerted that are being hunted and go into hiding. So that Joe would accomplish nothing, and reap all the problems that he was worried about. Genius plan. Can't find any flaws in it!
 
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Nimeroni said:
HAHAHA NO. Should I remember you the word of the passenger, assuming the full Forge unlock ?
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Lmao no, And you seem to forget that the passenger as far it's aware that only method known to take out Zion was the canon one, your taking it at 100% everything the passenger gives despite the fact in-story it proven it can not exactly take everything as fact, the passenger itself doesn't know of any other method and it lack certainty, so the only reason it's suggesting Taylor so strongly because it's thinks of a backup plan despite fact not knowing if the full forge can do so or not the passenger can't see outside it bubble at times especially with its fandom opinions. the forge at full can there's literally tons of stuff in it especially tenchi muyo 600 perk once Joe gets it.

The full might of the forge would allow Joe to more then take on Zion the issue is collateral damage which Joe would hesitant of, which at least we both can agree on what don't agree on is the repeated underestimation of the forge at it full might.
 
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Slentoru said:
Isn't that precisely the reason for why he chose to wait and prepare? To find information and prepare technology and team for decisive victory? Are you defending his choice now????
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Alright, let's simplify it. Imagine you were standing with a fully loaded gun, and there was a zombie coming at you. A seemingly regular zombie, not too fast, not too slow. You heard of zombies, but never seen them before. You aren't too sure, but you think that putting a bullet in it's head should be enough. But there is a small dilemma.

- If you shoot when it's far, you are guaranteed to waste some bullets, because you'll miss some. It's bad, because you'll be left with less bullets for the next zombie, but you have 100% chance to kill it with no injuries.
- Or you could let it come near. Then... you are no guaranteed to kill it without being injured. But you think the chance is good, and you will save some bullets. Except you suspect that the closer it comes, the more you'll shake from fear and smell. You might even miss from this. And it can suddenly become quicker when it's near. You might even die. But if you are right, you will not waste bullets.

So, your choice?
 
I think the reason that people are getting mad at Joe here (and it's somewhat deserved) is he's pulling a Cauldron. I think he's justified in doing so because he has real info and much better numbers, rather than a compromised brain parasite, but the fact is that he's deciding that innocent people are acceptable casualties to improve the odds of taking out a larger threat.

From his perspective there are just too many unknowns in taking out the SL9 at range. Keep in mind he doesn't know why Jack is a End-Of-The-World level threat, for all he knows he misses killing him for five minutes and then he sets of the apocalypse. If Joe knew that Scion was required he'd probably act very differently.

95% confidence is great until that 5% is potentially the end of the world, in which case you take the 99.9% option even if it means more people die.
 
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tronax said:
Yep. "Always smartass your way out of a losing argument" :)
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No, he has a point, you not glued to the fucking floor in your example.

But if you allow me to humor you, I would let zombie get a bit closer but not too close. Mid range. Then I shoot it. No bullets wasted or at least minimal bullets wasted. Also, shooting long distance with a gun never a 100% which is also exactly why your example is stupid, Joe isnt sure he has 100% chance at offing Nine without these roaches slipping away somehow due to bullshit power they picked up to counter him.

Joe can let S9 arrive at outskirts of city and then ambush them.
 
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Without the Celestial Forge knowing, they would've been merely fucked.

With the trap being set, they are TURBOFUCKED!!

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Jack's eyes cartoonishly bugged out. He stammered as his 'intuition' failed to find any meaningful purchase. Jacob finally felt something similar to when he triggered - of a world that doesn't make sense. Absurdity of all things big and small, good and wicked.
His temper tantrum of destruction was pointless and at its end.
He screamed helplessly.
"IT'S A TRAP!!"
He was targeted first once his intuition was recognized by the good guys, then shortly atomized by Joe's Garment Gloved hand making a finger gun - Garments Light focused through the spatial lens of Shadow.
Total annihilation. Zero surviving biology.
Meanwhile Contessa was losing her fucking mind once Broadcast was without a host - and thus her power was without the murderhobos interference.
"HOW COULD WE BE SO STUPID!?"
 
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ExploerTM said:
No, he has a point, you not glued to the fucking floor in your example.

But if you allow me to humor you, I would let zombie get a bit closer but not too close. Mid range. Then I shoot it. No bullets wasted or at least minimal bullets wasted. Also, shooting long distance with a gun never a 100% which is also exactly why your example is stupid, Joe isnt sure he has 100% chance at offing Nine without these roaches sleeping away somehow due to bullshit power they picked up to counter him.

Joe can let S9 arrive at outskirts of city and then ambush them.
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You are not glued. Joe is not glued. He could run. He wouldn't, because he got something to protect. But he could. So, if we take zombie analogy in the same spirit, you have some reason to not run. Which is pretty obvious for everyone, including the smartass guy, who preferred the typical internet troll tactic as an answer.

Now, mid range. What would be a mid range? With guns far is about 30m. Mid is 15-20m. Low is 5-8. If you shoot at 15-20m, you are still going to miss some, unless you are a really good shot. Nerves alone would do that. So it's still stands as example.

What would mid range be in real world, given the weaponry heroes possess? City outskirts isn't even low range, it's outright melee range. Low range would be a few dozens of km to the city. Medium - when S9 enter the state. High would be asap when they are spotted.
 
tronax said:
You are not glued. Joe is not glued. He could run. He wouldn't, because he got something to protect. But he could. So, if we take zombie analogy in the same spirit, you have some reason to not run. Which is pretty obvious for everyone, including the smartass guy, who preferred the typical internet troll tactic as an answer.

Now, mid range. What would be a mid range? With guns far is about 30m. Mid is 15-20m. Low is 5-8. If you shoot at 15-20m, you are still going to miss some, unless you are a really good shot. Nerves alone would do that. So it's still stands as example.

What would mid range be in real world, given the weaponry heroes possess? City outskirts isn't even low range, it's outright melee range. Low range would be a few dozens of km to the city. Medium - when S9 enter the state. High would be asap when they are spotted.
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I took it how you gave it. You "simplified it" to me, I took it simple.

If you want for me to take this stupidity seriously - here:

High range - I might kill the zombie, I might not, I probably won't because it's not the fact that zombie will die (Stop unliving?) even if I will manage to shoot it. But noise from gunfire will grab attention from all other zombies. And then, I have more problems than I started with. And with high chance, a problem I started with will not be solved.

Low range - While zombie waddles to me, I can build canon, that will not only most certainly safely blow zombie to smitherine, like I want to, but also send a message to other "predators" nearby: "I am not your fucking meal. Don't go near me with dinner in mind.". And then I will have more problems than I started with. Because zombies stupid. But at least all humans will know why I did what I did.

Yeah, I would choose the low one. At least that one will actually solve my problem.
 
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tronax said:
You are not glued. Joe is not glued. He could run. He wouldn't, because he got something to protect. But he could. So, if we take zombie analogy in the same spirit, you have some reason to not run. Which is pretty obvious for everyone, including the smartass guy, who preferred the typical internet troll tactic as an answer.

Now, mid range. What would be a mid range? With guns far is about 30m. Mid is 15-20m. Low is 5-8. If you shoot at 15-20m, you are still going to miss some, unless you are a really good shot. Nerves alone would do that. So it's still stands as example.

What would mid range be in real world, given the weaponry heroes possess? City outskirts isn't even low range, it's outright melee range. Low range would be a few dozens of km to the city. Medium - when S9 enter the state. High would be asap when they are spotted.
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...entire glued thing was pointing out why your example is kinda trash, why the heck you applying it to Joe? You know what, never mind that

Mid is 15-20m. Low is 5-8
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So whats between 8 and 15 meters? Are you, like, read what you write? ...you know what, forget about it too, I can't even- just forget.

Outskirts of city is pretty mid to close range. And S9 WONT start murdering the second they near BB, it would be a sure fucking suicide to them. They however at this point would be committed to the city and on Joe's home turf where he has every single advantage imaginable. Now he can scan the shit out of them, plan all the routes they can possibly take and account for it, literally encircle them and most of all he'll be way stronger than he is even now and he will be sure NOW they have no place or method to run, thats it, they doomed. Then he has too sprung the trap. Mind you, while S9 didnt even properly settled in let alone started unfolding their plan to kill Apeiron.

RIGHT NOW S9 gods know where because Joe can only narrow it down and then use drones and pray to Omnissiah that Mannequin, Crawler, Bonesaw's creations and Siberian will fail to notice these drones which will instantly send S9 running and laying low. Then he has to pray to Emperor that they didn't picked up or, way worse btw because nobody can really account for that, made some bullshit power that is giant Fuck You In Particular aimed at Joe specifically. Then he has to pray to Hades that they didnt picked up or, you know, fucking made some bullshit power that is S9's Get Out Of Jail Free Card. Then he has to pray to entire fucking pantheon that Slash wont press Fuck Everyone Lets Start Armageddon button and blow up Earth Bet.

Or he can let them a bit closer, scan their asses, realize that yes, he counters everything they have AND Jacob doesnt have Fuck World button which would allow Joe to stomp them.

What a hard choice. I fucking wonder.
 
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