Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

[ACON]

From a logical standpoint, I can understand Joe setting a trap to maximize his chances. From an emotional standpoint...he's a coward and pulling a Cauldron.

Every place that's going be destroyed will be due to the S9, but Joe not getting out of his litttle safe Haven and preventing this shows he's still the same coward as he was in the beginning.

There are probably good counter points to my little tantrum, alas this comes from an emotional place and sometimes logic can go to hell.

 

[ExploerTM]

Every city that will be destroyed will be due to the S9, but Joe not getting out of his litttle safe Haven and preventing this shows he's still the same coward as he was in the beginning.

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Ah yes the most discreet way to sneak up on target - leave a trail of burning cities behind. Smokes of the cities will totally conceal S9's movement, dammit, Jack outplayed everyone again!

 

[tronax]

I can build canon

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As in a cannon? You'd build a cannon while a zombie comes at you? Sure, alright. That's one solution. Good skills, I guess.

So whats between 8 and 15 meters? Are you, like, read what you write?

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That's a TOP boudary for a range. As in low = 0-[5-8], middle = [5-8]-[15-20], and so on. You know, the range when you begin shooting. I don't remember the ranges precisely, so I put them this way. Thought it obvious, but whatever.

And S9 WONT start murdering the second they near BB, it would be a sure fucking suicide to them.

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Yup, that would help you lots, if there was some bullshit tinkertech mechanic that would trigger some bullshit WMD when they are put down. Something like a zombie plague, that for some bullshit tinkertech reason can't be contained by regular means. Which, as we know is resolvable by Panacea, but Joe... doesn't.

Now he can scan the shit out of them, plan all the routes they can possibly take and account for it

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Yup, that would help you lots, it there was some bullshit tinkertech mechanic to interfere with scans. Which we know is not likely, but Joe... doesn't.

In short, to him, it must seem that the earlier he tries his attack sequence, the better his odds would be.

 

[deadlyham]

Chapter summary:
Slaughterhouse 9 plot an attack on Brockton Bay.
Joe realizes this and asks Survey to locate them.

I just had to let them come to me.

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God damn this is stupid. The Slaughterhouse 9 always have the advantage because they get to pick and choose their fights with plenty of preparation. This will be a second disaster on the scale of March's attack.

The two excuses for waiting are weak. Excuse #1 is catching all the Slaughterhouse 9 members. The Slaughterhouse 9 lacks Strangers. They are hauling around Crawler! I will be severely disappointed if Survey can't pinpoint their location with real time updates by tomorrow.

Excuse #2 is preventing everyone from freaking out more about Apeiron. Joe tricked Thinkers into believing he is passive and not dangerous, so launching an attack on the S9 would prove all those Thinkers wrong. So Joe's answer is... to be just as passive as those Thinkers believe. If he's worried about impacting his reputation, then Joe can secretly assassinate the S9 while they are away from any populated places. The great thing about the S9 hiding is that it's easier to secretly assassinate them. Matrix can repair any damage, and Survey can hide any digital evidence.

Or hell, send someone else to assassinate the S9, like his cat. There, plausible deniability.

Joe no.....Just no.

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ditto

Let's face it. Joe is beyond an utter coward. The Hero Is Overpowered but Overly Cautious.

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A good effort post on Joe's shortcomings.

 

[ExploerTM]

That's a TOP boudary for a range. As in low = 0-[5-8], middle = [5-8]-[15-20], and so on. You know, the range when you begin shooting. I don't remember the ranges precisely, so I put them this way. Thought it obvious, but whatever.

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Thats gotta be the most inconvenient way I saw someone write down ranges. But whatever.

Yup, that would help you lots, if there was some bullshit tinkertech mechanic that would trigger some bullshit WMD when they are put down. Something like a zombie plague, that for some bullshit tinkertech reason can't be contained by regular means. Which, as we know is resolvable by Panacea, but Joe... doesn't.

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Thats related to my point exactly how? How S9 death switch, something Joe probably suspects exists, relates to them keeping low profile and bidding their time preparing their own little trap? I mean, you sure you quoted the right thing from my comment?

Yup, that would help you lots, it there was some bullshit tinkertech mechanic to interfere with scans. Which we know is not likely, but Joe... doesn't.

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Information that something interferes with scans is by itself a good intelligence because now Joe can try to work around it. Instead rushing in blind relying on scanners to catch fleeing roaches and realizing all too late that scanner do jack (hehe) shit.

In short, to him, it must seem that the earlier he tries his attack sequence, the better his odds would be.

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Joe literally gets exponentially stronger and more versatile the longer he waits. Fucking Lisa in one chapter commented that Joe's best counter play is sit still, wait till you massively overpower your opponent, then steamroll him.

S9 might have a chance against Joe right now - for all he knows - but he also knows due to nature of his power plus all his anti-thinker shit whatever intelligence S9 have on him would be useless three days later.


EDIT: My favorite part is gotta be how everyone focus on S9 and utterly forget or outright ignore that Joe's much bigger concern is PRT labeling him unhinged S-class threat, Mad Scientist.

 

[Slentoru]

As in a cannon? You'd build a cannon while a zombie comes at you? Sure, alright. That's one solution. Good skills, I guess.

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First, you're saying that me having Joe's skills and motives in your analogy is obvious, then you're saying this. I'm starting to think you did not though your analogy through.

No, seriously, that not what my argument started with. I asked you for a quote from the chapter. Why do you think that Joe's strategic plan is to "get the terrorists get into the city, let them spread out, grab hostages, and then engage"? That argument you yet to answer.

In short, to him, it must seem that the earlier he tries his attack sequence, the better his odds would be.

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Why? You said your self that Joe knows nothing about S9 capabilities. Why would you attack when you know nothing about your opponent? If your goal is to destroy them, that sound like a gamble at best and a sure way to fail at worst.

 

[Creed]

As said above, Joe CAN murder them like there's no tomorrow, but it wouldn't be discreet and the moment people see Apeiron just murdering someone few states away, all hell breaks loose and Joe has to deal with like rest of the world declaring him an unstable threat. Now, Joe can fight entirety of Protectorate but by this point only thing left to is take over the country. Which Joe doesn't want Politics are a bitch after all.

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Nope, See, that might be an acceptable excuse if Joe hadn't literally told Survey and Tybalt that he didn't care if the PRT decided to send in an S-class response after him and removed all of their restrictions. So either he really didn't think that through-because a fully expect to see nanites and or bio-weapons used openly as a result, or he has and just wants to show off regardless of the danger that letting the nine that close to a city causes.

 

[ExploerTM]

Nope, See, that might be an acceptable excuse if Joe hadn't literally told Survey and Tybalt that he didn't care if the PRT decided to send in an S-class response after him and removed all of their restrictions. So either he really didn't think that through-because a fully expect to see nanites and or bio-weapons used openly as a result, or he has and just wants to show off regardless of the danger that letting the nine that close to a city causes.

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No, its just you not paying attention.

Joe's already pretty much labeled Mad Scientist, true. But at this point people think that he has commitments, contracts, which makes Joe predictable. That, and he isnt proactive cape. Dont poke the gorilla, gorilla wont snap your neck. The moment Joe just casually murders someone three states away - whoopse, Apeiron is actually unhinged and can do pretty much whatever his sick mind wants, better call in entire Protectorate and Guild and deal with his threat permanently!

Joe can do whatever the fuck he wants as long as its withing boundaries of BB and he was attacked first or was going to be attacked so he can claim self-defense.

 

[tronax]

Information that something interferes with scans is by itself a good intelligence because now Joe can try to work around it. Instead rushing in blind relying on scanners to catch fleeing roaches and realizing all too late that scanner do jack (hehe) shit.

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So, let's assume they came to BB and Joe scanned them. And unexpectedly, the scan failed. What now? Attack blindly? Do nothing, while working around the 'good intelligence' while S9 kills half of BB in their opening moves, and then act, after new scanners are made? That sounds like a grand plan. I mean, yeah, nothing could go wrong.

I mean, you sure you quoted the right thing from my comment?

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Maybe not, irrelevant, point still stands.

Joe literally gets exponentially stronger and more versatile the longer he waits. Fucking Lisa in one chapter commented that Joe's best counter play is sit still, wait till you massively overpower your opponent, then steamroll him.

S9 might have a chance against Joe right now - for all he knows - but he also knows due to nature of his power plus all his anti-thinker shit whatever intelligence S9 have on him would be useless three days later.

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And this all would only matter if attacking them earlier would cost him in terms of ability to attack them later. It wouldn't. He can try multiple times, without as much as paying attention to the tries. That's why the earlier he begins, the better are his chances of offing them cleanly. And I'm speaking of the full attack sequence. If scan is a part of it, then it would be a part of it either way.

 

[Xedornox]

Ah yes the most discreet way to sneak up on target - leave a trail of burning cities behind. Smokes of the cities will totally conceal S9's movement, dammit, Jack outplayed everyone again!

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Exactly the nine are trying to be discrete and go under not only everyones radar but Aperion's rader and they are in their minds not underestimating his tech as such it is highly likely they will leave very little trail or evidence of their passing, which aligns with them going through back roads and large manor like houses that are very far away from other large manor houses let alone towns and cities.

Jack despite how much I dislike the man is both smart and cunning, He as seen with his own eyes through videos just how powerful Aperion is and while Shatterbird in their minds should no sell his tech I doubt the man is banking or not entertaining the idea that Aperion has already prepared for such a thing.

So, let's assume they came to BB and Joe scanned them. And unexpectedly, the scan failed. What now? Attack blindly? Do nothing, while working around the 'good intelligence' while S9 kills half of BB in their opening moves, and then act, after new scanners are made? That sounds like a grand plan. I mean, yeah, nothing could go wrong.

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Is there are a reason you'd even think his scanning would fail? Real question.

 

[Creed]

No, its just you not paying attention.

Joe's already pretty much labeled Mad Scientist, true. But at this point people think that he has commitments, contracts, which makes Joe predictable. That, and he isnt proactive cape. Dont poke the gorilla, gorilla wont snap your neck. The moment Joe just casually murders someone three states away - whoopse, Apeiron is actually unhinged and can do pretty much whatever his sick mind wants, better call in entire Protectorate and Guild and deal with his threat permanently!

Joe can do whatever the fuck he wants as long as its withing boundaries of BB and he was attacked first or was going to be attacked so he can claim self-defense.

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Ok, so one, if he's worried about the PRTs response then his best choice is still to off them outside of the city and just not take credit. Everyone wins, and with all of Joes stealth tech and abilities-plus Blank. At that point BANG, the 9s dead, there's a smoking crater where their last suspected position was, "Who could have done such a thing?", The PRT investigates and finds little to nothing and Joe has one less problem to deal with.

 

[Slentoru]

Nope, See, that might be an acceptable excuse if Joe hadn't literally told Survey and Tybalt that he didn't care if the PRT decided to send in an S-class response after him and removed all of their restrictions. So either he really didn't think that through-because a fully expect to see nanites and or bio-weapons used openly as a result, or he has and just wants to show off regardless of the danger that letting the nine that close to a city causes.

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Here read this:

The thing was, I had an alternative. Something that would deal with the situation effectively while not blowing my cover or exposing my anti-precog powers. Something that would ensure I could hit every member of the Nine with no chance of someone being overlooked.Here read this:

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Yes, the fact that he talks about S-class response and deal with Nilbog latter is a bit confusing, but here the thing - he was not talking about sending that all his way.

Here:

I want to destroy the Nine as a concept. If that means the Protectorate looks at what I brought to bear and decides their only option is launching an S-Class response that involves opening the Birdcage, canceling kill orders, and making a deal with Nilbog, then so be it. We will deal with that, but no matter what, no matter the cost, Jack does not walk away from this. Not this time."

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That's not about PRT dealing with Apeiron. It's about PRT dealing with consequences of Apeiron dealing with S9. Also, I'm pretty sure that Joe is a bit emotional in this monologue and talks about the worst case scenario.

So, let's assume they came to BB and Joe scanned them. And unexpectedly, the scan failed. What now? Attack blindly? Do nothing, while working around the 'good intelligence' while S9 kills half of BB in their opening moves, and then act, after new scanners are made? That sounds like a grand plan. I mean, yeah, nothing could go wrong.

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I mean - yes. Waiting for the last moment to start your preparations is a terrible plan. Why did you even bring it up? Joe has 3 day before S9 even get close to BB.

 

[dragon_cloud16]

Okay, seems that people are getting a little intense about what Joe is doing when it comes to the Slaughterhouse 9 here.

Honestly enough though, both sides have good points about what they are arguing about.

If Joe goes out there and launches a attack against them when they are away from the Bay then realistically he has a very good chance of taking them all out. This would end the threat of them much more quickly along with lowering the body count.

But on the downside of that is Joe does not know if he can hard counter all of them. We know he can but from his perspective he wants to be sure. Remember, the Slaughterhouse 9 in Worm is as close to a boogeyman among the cape scene as you can get. The Endbringers are natural disasters along with a few known S-Class threats such as Nilbog and the Machine Army. But the 9 are roaming threats to everyone that not everyone wants to face.

With Siberian who has done the most damage to the "supposed" invincible Alexandira to the biological nightmares that Bonesaw can create. And that is not to forget what Shatterbird can do to entire cities for her opening attack. Combine all that in a world where nobody really knows where they are, who they all have on their team at a time, what plagues that Bonesaw has prepared, and what Mannequin as made up really would drive both the threat and fear of any of them surviving a attack.

So Joe launching a attack on them away from the Bay is a good idea. But he isn't confident enough to guarantee them all being taken out safely. And that is what he wants to do. A complete destruction of the 9 that has nearly 100% chance to succeed.

On the other hand, the reasoning of why he is letting them come to the Bay has it's own demerits. First off, it lets them choose where they are going to attack. Along with building up for that very attack. They get to start creating plans to use against the people in the city and could actually have already started by planting bombs in people that release a death plague or something. Not to mention whatever monstrosity they create.

But to counter this we have Survey gathering as much Intel about them as she can. The beginning of drone release to aid in this, and the ability to setup the battlefield for Joe to use. Joe is escalation incarnate in this story, and not even Taylor/Skitter/Khepri can equal him at all. He can improve the equipment and city to be prepared along with know where they are in the city to the centimeter, what they are doing, what they have on them, and what they are capable.

And this includes the truth about Siberian as well. You know, the member that can rip through a Time Stop bubble along with similar effects that is a remote drone controlled by a guy that worked for Cauldron. He also already should have a bigger idea of how Jack freaking survives pretty easily against capes.

He will be able to setup to counter them, on his own turf, and at his own choosing as well. That means he can take them out while they are sleeping, in the bathroom, or right before they take a step outside to launch a attack themselves. He can cause chaos in their ranks by being smart along with doing things properly. Such as capturing Bonesaw very early in the campaign to remove one of the biggest threats to the city and disarm her work while depraving the enemy of a valuable resource. He does have the stealth tech to do it.

And people are thinking about how Joe acts in response to the PRT watching him. Alot of you all bring up good points about that. But honestly enough, they already are freaking out about him and just him fighting the 9 is going to be a cause to panic for them. It does not matter if he attacks them from a distance or in Brockton Bay. Just him taking the initiative will be a cause of alarm for them. Especially when he shows off all the things he can do with his tech along with more capabilities of his team.

After all, all they really know about them is that Lethe is a Stranger, Fleet has Mover and Brute ratings, Survey is a Thinker, and Tybalt is the combat expert. Tetra was worn by Joe during his fight against March, Lung, and Oni Lee as well as not really knowing much about Matrix. They barely know anything about them except that they exist.

Their theory is that they are a Cluster Trigger working together in support of each other and that already terrifies them. If they get even the idea that Joe practically made them, what Survey, Fleet, Tetra, and Matrix really are, and how much Apeiron has been holding back then they are going to be having nightmares about them. They aren't going to need to brown pants. They are going to be making their offices brown and yellow in sheer fear of what the Celestial Forge team is.

 

[tronax]

Is there are a reason you'd even think his scanning would fail? Real question.

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It can happen. In fact, it should happen. Because tinkertech is very literally bullshit. It's effects are mostly applied directly thru shard 'magic'. So you can scan some black box all you want, and you will understand nothing, because there is nothing to understand. But when it somehow triggers, the shard that made it would apply some effect to a wide area around the box.

Because it's the shard that does it, the box is just a target.

 

[ExploerTM]

So, let's assume they came to BB and Joe scanned them. And unexpectedly, the scan failed. What now? Attack blindly? Do nothing, while working around the 'good intelligence' while S9 kills half of BB in their opening moves, and then act, after new scanners are made? That sounds like a grand plan. I mean, yeah, nothing could go wrong.

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You do realize that worst case Joe has countercraft - which is not exactly has a great distance btw - and can use it to deal with effect, right? And, frankly, yes, he can make new scanners. You really, really missing the point of most S9 strategies. They can lie in waiting for DAYS, MANY DAYS, but you seems to assume that the moment they unpacked their belongings in some sobs apartment they going on blind mindless murder spree. Thats NOT S9 MO, Jack, ugh, is smarter than that.

Maybe not, irrelevant, point still stands.

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Its literally not because it also falls under scanners point. Scan -> Dead Man Switch found -> Counter made.

And this all would only matter if attacking them earlier would cost him in terms of ability to attack them later. It wouldn't. He can try multiple times, without as much as paying attention to the tries. That's why the earlier he begins, the better are his chances of offing them cleanly. And I'm speaking of the full attack sequence. If scan is a part of it, then it would be a part of it either way.

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...you not understanding how to separate in-universe knowledge and meta knowledge do you? Lets throw away all, ALL other "may be"s and focus on one: Joe knows that Jack can do something bad, REALLY BAD. Like, End Of The World Bad. And Joe has no DEFINITIVE answer to Siberian and her granting people invulnerability; sure, something that might, SHOULD work, but not "Yeah, that'll kill her for sure". Would Joe risk failing on killing Jack for whatever reason and letting him to do THE THING? Say, he is 99.99% sure, he will succeed (he is not even close to be that sure but whatever). But End of the World at stake. 00.01% is STILL way too big of a risk - chances of people triggering lower yet here Joe stands. Chances of receiving CF is basically a rounding error yet here Joe stands. I dont think someone as cautious and familiar with "impossible chances" as Joe will gamble with entirety of the world.

Ok, so one, if he's worried about the PRTs response then his best choice is still to off them outside of the city and just not take credit. Everyone wins, and with all of Joes stealth tech and abilities-plus Blank. At that point BANG, the 9s dead, there's a smoking crater where their last suspected position was, "Who could have done such a thing?", The PRT investigates and finds little to nothing and Joe has one less problem to deal with.

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It would be easy of not for 10.000 thinker pointed at Joe. Joe has fiat-backed defense only against few precogs, not entirety of think tank, here's Joe has to rely on his own made defenses and Joe himself comments how he sure that at least few thinkers will bypass them somehow anyway. Also he has no way of knowing how well fight will go. For all he knows, he will be hard pressed and will have to use another Final Slash, which as good as shouting Apeiron Is Here.

It can happen. In fact, it should happen. Because tinkertech is very literally bullshit. It's effects are mostly applied directly thru shard 'magic'. So you can scan some black box all you want, and you will understand nothing, because there is nothing to understand. But when it somehow triggers, the shard that made it would apply some effect to a wide area around the box.

Because it's the shard that does it, the box is just a target.

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Except Joe has scanners specifically targeted at dealing with parahuman powers. But I am glad you started to seeing what LordR attempts to bash into heads of some readers again and again: PASSENGERS ARE SCARY BULLSHIT AND CAN BE A REAL PAIN TO DEAL WITH.

 

[Slentoru]

It can happen. In fact, it should happen. Because tinkertech is very literally bullshit. It's effects are mostly applied directly thru shard 'magic'. So you can scan some black box all you want, and you will understand nothing, because there is nothing to understand. But when it somehow triggers, the shard that made it would apply some effect to a wide area around the box.

Because it's the shard that does it, the box is just a target.

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Did you miss how most of the fic Joe was scanning tinkertech without problems? In BCF - tinkertech is actually functional, just black boxed with over contrivance of physics at work. That even get explained when Joe got Armsmaster's power.

 

[Xedornox]

It can happen. In fact, it should happen. Because tinkertech is very literally bullshit. It's effects are mostly applied directly thru shard 'magic'. So you can scan some black box all you want, and you will understand nothing, because there is nothing to understand. But when it somehow triggers, the shard that made it would apply some effect to a wide area around the box.

Because it's the shard that does it, the box is just a target.

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His tech isn't "Tinker Tech" though... and is literally fiat backed by multiple fiats to work.

 

[Guyman]

It's less that Joe is procrastinating and more of what happens when you kill a momma Wolfspider.
She carries her children upon her until they're ready to leave. If she dies before then, those hundred little buggers will scatter. To make sure that none get away, you'd need a nuclear option to deal with all of them at once.

Mannequin and Bonesaw are like that swarm of fleeing babies, except crossed with the Xenomorph from "Alien" - Mannequins specialty lends itself well to subterfuge. Self-contained bombs that detonate if the capsule is opened. Usable scent trails nonexistent due to his specialty of enclosed environments.
And Bonesaw at her worst makes Nilbog look reasonable, considerate and rational. Jack restricts from releasing plagues and self-replicating bioweapons/landmines because killing only by way of plague and autonomous weapons is neither interesting or amusing to him. Also there is the question of her "peak". Likely her talents are focused only in ways that are interesting to Jack - making an interconnected network of Bonesaw clones, for instance, wouldn't be amusing to him. But it's not much of a leap of logic to think that she could make herself "immortal" in such a fashion.
Burnscar meanwhile can teleport through fire. Megafires are devastating enough IRL, adding a manic pyrokinetic that is almost one with the flame to the mix is extremely dangerous.

Sure, they could be dealt with by getting the jump, but Joe does not have a path to victory. Crawler is a weapon that will gladly charge into his own destruction. Shatterbird can probably be tracked by the way that her power resonates and controls glass. Cheshire is hard-countered but can take hostages. Siberians host is likely able to be traced by their connection, and that moron is squishy.

Mannequin, Burnscar and Bonesaw can go to ground... or go fucking nova.

Risk = Threat times vulnerability.
Out there, Joe will get the jump on them, but the less existentially dangerous members can provide cover for the escape or explosive self-destruction of the more existentially dangerous ones. It will be extremely messy.
Also, Jack's Broadcast is almost equal to PtV in how fucking unfair and overpowered it is. The less said about the possibility of him escaping, the better.
Meanwhile, by waiting for them, they have the homefield advantage. Plans can be thought, written and optimized. Traps, caches and drones can be planted. Threat and vulnerability are magnitudes less by setting this trap.

Also the clusterfuck of back and forth is based on the premise that Jack and the pals' destroy everything in their path. They don't. Jack is the pinnacle of "Disgusting murder hobo". He drags out slaughter and torture if its "interesting" to him. Otherwise, almost all of his actions are to appease the more useful members and maintain cohesion.
They're on the go. They'll make a few rest stops of pillage, rape and burn of anyone that Jack thinks won't draw unwanted attention. But based upon the pattern of Jacks behavior, they will not destroy cities on their journey - because they've already set the target and taken the bait.
It's just a matter of waiting for them to swallow the poison.

Jack Slash is not the Joker. The Joker was mad - he did not have any real identity besides the Joker, but had frightening intelligence. And in that tempest that was his fractured psyche were the seeds of agenda - love, resentment and attachment.
Jack does not have the Jokers "intelligence". Jack does not have the Jokers unpredictably. Jack does not have the insanity of the Joker.
Jack has an unfair power that gives him backdoor access to Parahuman psyches and a desire that stems all the way from his childish response to a world that's bursting with absurdity.
Jack is no more than a manchild with an unfair power. He's taken the bait. He might kill a few people to satiate the desires of himself and his group, but he won't slaughter.
Joe does not have a path to victory. Survey is fantastic, but omniscience is more or less incompatible with finite minds. This is not a Pascal's Wager scenario, where the stakes become incoherent like they did for Cauldron.
Waiting for the chucklfuck meat to showup is the most sensible and least risky option.

 

[tronax]

You do realize that worst case Joe has countercraft - which is not exactly has a great distance btw - and can use it to deal with effect, right? And, frankly, yes, he can make new scanners. You really, really missing the point of most S9 strategies. They can lie in waiting for DAYS, MANY DAYS, but you seems to assume that the moment they unpacked their belongings in some sobs apartment they going on blind mindless murder spree. Thats NOT S9 MO, Jack, ugh, is smarter than that.

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The problem is he does not know what exactly he'll have to face. They are going to prepare surprises, probably plant things on their way, use mail delivery to get things ahead of them, send bonesaw-zombie infiltrators, etc. The longer they prepare, the more things they will have ready, and the harder it will be to root them all out in time. After they get to BB it really doesn't matter if they keep to themselves or attack asap, it's the time that makes all the difference.

Its literally not because it also falls under scanners point. Scan -> Dead Man Switch found -> Counter made.

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If scanning was a part of his attack sequence, then attacking ahead of time would be just as good. But much more important is a different matter. Dead man switches can be horrifically complicated. Especially when you have Bonesaw. All it can take for hell to break loose is one daily email not being sent to a seemingly random single use address. Good luck scanning for that.

Now, this shit would happen either way, regardless of when you off her. But the later it happens, the less shit she will prepare and spread to major cities just in case.

...you not understanding how to separate in-universe knowledge and meta knowledge do you? Lets throw away all, ALL other "may be"s and focus on one: Joe knows that Jack can do something bad, REALLY BAD. Like, End Of The World Bad. And Joe has no DEFINITIVE answer to Siberian and her granting people invulnerability; sure, something that might, SHOULD work, but not "Yeah, that'll kill her for sure". Would Joe risk failing on killing Jack for whatever reason and letting him to do THE THING? Say, he is 99.99% sure, he will succeed (he is not even close to be that sure but whatever). But End of the World at stake. 00.01% is STILL way too big of a risk - chances of people triggering lower yet here Joe stands. Chances of receiving CF is basically a rounding error yet here Joe stands. I dont think someone as cautious and familiar with "impossible chances" as Joe will gamble with entirety of the world.

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Not attacking him ahead of time would make about as much sense as not attacking him at all then. Because if anything can trigger it, then maybe his death can trigger it. Or even his capture. So to be safe he'd have to scan the entirety of earth Bet, to know that Jack left no surprises that will trigger on event of his defeat. If he's not going to do that? He may as well attack ahead.

Did you miss how most of the fic Joe was scanning tinkertech without problems? In BCF - tinkertech is actually functional, just black boxed with over contrivance of physics at work. That even get explained when Joe got Armsmaster's power.

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Admittedly, that's a point to you, I forgot this. But... if most tinkertech works that way, is it impossible for some of it to work in more canon-like way? Would it make sense if people who have the best connection to their shards would be able to do it? Wouldn't it really fuck Joe up it happened?

 

[Amdar210]

The two excuses for waiting are weak. Excuse #1 is catching all the Slaughterhouse 9 members. The Slaughterhouse 9 lacks Strangers. They are hauling around Crawler! I will be severely disappointed if Survey can't pinpoint their location with real time updates by tomorrow.

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Going to slightly disagree here. S9 dealt with Nice Guy. His power was to literally not to seem to be a threat to someone.

"He just stole my sandwich, what a Nice Guy!"
"He just ran me over with a dump truck, what a Nice Guy!"
He just decided to kill everyone living with me, what a Nice Guy!"

Then do remember a few things about Jack Slash.
He wants to be in control.
His power is literally the 'Communication/Broadcast' Shard. The Shard/Agent/Power that let Entities talk to one another. Jacks long rang slashing is 'Communicating' the blade edge to a distant location.
Jack's power is also able to pick up on shards using their power. And even when Parahumans make plans to attack him, his shard picks up on this from the parahumans shards that planned to attack him. Thus, his seemingly ability to avoid being beaten or trapped. It isn't precog, but more he knows subconsciously what other parahumans are planning. This 'intuition' lets him avoid a lot of dangers.

Hence why Joe needs to keep his actions from Imp/Lethe. As she has an actual shard connected to the Network, they use this to share DATA and decide power interactions, Lethe knowing would have her power know. Her power would be sharing this data about conflict to the network. 'Broadcast', Jack shard/power would get this data, resulting in Jack having the intuition to avoid Brockton Bay.

Do remember that the Shards/Agents/Powers are all a part of one of two networks. Further, the Shards are hardwired to promote Conflict, via subtle alteration of brain chemicals.
(Amy with her 'Queen Shaper' Biokinetic shard was constantly depressed and stressed, because she refused to use her power beyond healing. Her shard wanted new DATA. It wanted her to make things. It probably wouldn't care at first if she had made newly colored plants, or a fusion or plants that did super healing, but it would always push the envelope when she stopped giving it new data.)

Pretty much it doesn't matter what power used, Jack would be 'aware' that something was going to happen. Now could he avoid it? Possibly. He still has to work with the limits of his body (Enhaced by bonesaw of course) and his 'known' power of knife projection. He also isn't aware that he has this power. It's all background stuff to him. He honestly probably thinks he was amazing instincts or something.

So, Joe sending out Lethe simply wouldn't work.

Geeze, I went far with this one. Sorry if this came off rude or anything, but @LordRoustabout is sticking to canon with power interactions mostly. While I do disagree on letting them get to Brockton Bay, I also understand.

To me, Joe has NO responsibility to really anyone. Save his team and sort of the Undersiders. Yes, we want Joe to be the big hero and curb stomp the S9 with 0 to little collateral damage.

But Earth Bet, in particular its governments and the organizations dealing with capes, are super-uber paranoid. Afterall, just look at Nilbog. If he ever left his city, there isn't much that could stop him.
Ape In Iron not only has a massively fast build up time for a Tinker, he, or his 'Team' launched Lung into space via FTL Ram. To consider, the WW2 atomic bombs dropped by the USA, one of them was 18 kilotons. FTL, would be a crapton more energy. Joe is honestly trying to limit the amount of worries he causes by keeping his true level of power hidden. Afterall, if he went willy-nilly and did similar things to others who pissed him off, the American gov would have no choice but to try and force his compliance. It wouldn't end well, and Joe isn't trying to cause such problems for them.

By showing restraint, by not 'nuking' his opposition, when his level of power does eventually come out, while there will be people wanting to somehow get him under their thumbs (Cauldron), his past actions of not going over the top with power will help his position in the public eye.

Yes, this is the dirty side of power-politics. You can be super scary strong and carry a big stick. But if you want to work with people, which Joe knows he might need to in the future, you got to try to keep them from being willing to dive into a volcano or launch nukes at you to work with them.

Sorry, but Joe isn't a self-insert of you or I. I'd love to see a curb stomp fic based off of Joe, where he has no care at all. But this fic isn't it.

 

[AldariSiradla]

Right, don't forget your beer...
Snacks...
And the nice chairs...
Because we're gonna have one hell of a treat...
When the Nine show up...

Beware, beware...
Joe's gonna get ya!
Behind the face...
Is the spirit of a man who'll bitch slap you!

 

[Slentoru]

Wouldn't it really fuck Joe up it happened?

Click to shrink...

How? It would just make tinkertech from actual tech to items imbued with parahuman powers (paraitems?). In BCF's powers=magic rules - just enchanted items. And Joe has no problems with scanning powers nor enhanced items. Just remember what he did with Miss Militia's power. Or with Weld's powers. Or how he scanned Lili's powers. Or how Survey scanned Sabah's powers. Or how CFS "Final Frontier" is on its way to scan them all.

Edit: Oh, actually, isn't what you described is just Dauntless's power? Items with supernatural functions that work from parahuman powers. Only Dauntless's things don't mask themselves as tech.

 

[RogerDodger123]

The thing, that some people are molding about is cold logic Vs good storitelling. Yes, logically just going an dropping a nuke on 9s makes sense.
It also makes a boring, non-engaging scene.
I read some fics, where MC kill leviathan in one punch, and sone, where fight spawns multiple chapters. Same with Coil. Same with S9.
If author is good, then I prefer more scenes and character interaction, and not "he should just shot them with a sniper rifle long time ago".
Still, reactions tell us that people care, an think "what would I do there", which is a sign of excellent storytelling.

Click to shrink...

That's just bad writing then. If the main character can take down the bad guy, even if it's boring, it would be stupid in universe not to. You have to create a situation where the MC can't take them down in a boring way, you can't just say that even though the MC could easily take them down, they shouldn't because of "good storytelling".

 

[tronax]

How? It would just make tinkertech from actual tech to items imbued with parahuman powers (paraitems?). In BCF's powers=magic rules - just enchanted items. And Joe has no problems with scanning powers nor enhanced items. Just remember what he did with Miss Militia's power. Or with Weld's powers. Or how he scanned Lili's powers. Or how Survey scanned Sabah's powers. Or how CFS "Final Frontier" is on its way to scan them all.

Click to shrink...

You see, if a black box is just a weird black box, then there is absolutely no enchantments on it, it is imbued with no parahuman powers, it is just a black box. That's it, there is nothing else to it. It's completely useless by itself. But if a certain shard, was programmed to do something on an event attributed to that black box? Well, it would have nothing to do with that black box. How the hell would Joe scan for it? It's not that the shard in question even only paying attention to that black box. It's looking at a wide area around his parahuman. And there are lots of shards that are surveying that area. The hell should Joe do about it? Hypothetically.

 

[ExploerTM]

The problem is he does not know what exactly he'll have to face. They are going to prepare surprises, probably plant things on their way, use mail delivery to get things ahead of them, send bonesaw-zombie infiltrators, etc. The longer they prepare, the more things they will have ready, and the harder it will be to root them all out in time. After they get to BB it really doesn't matter if they keep to themselves or attack asap, it's the time that makes all the difference.

Click to shrink...

Ok, you are have no idea how S9 operates, gotcha.

All things you described are stupid; this leaves clear trail. Jack doesnt want any trails. S9 will silently slip into the city and akin to infection begin to spread but not act, only laying foundation. It will take time, and in case of preparing show for someone of Apeiron's caliber - A LOT of time. Time, which Joe wont give them. He can prepare orders of magnitude faster. S9 will arrive in one nice package with all their prepared stuff with them; they would have easy access to it, true, but on a flip side Joe wont have to search through entire city to weed it all out.

If scanning was a part of his attack sequence, then attacking ahead of time would be just as good. But much more important is a different matter. Dead man switches can be horrifically complicated. Especially when you have Bonesaw. All it can take for hell to break loose is one daily email not being sent to a seemingly random single use address. Good luck scanning for that.

Now, this shit would happen either way, regardless of when you off her. But the later it happens, the less shit she will prepare and spread to major cities just in case.

Click to shrink...

You also have no idea how tinkers operate, gotcha x2. In case of Bonesaw, oh man, you terribly underselling what marvels can Riley do with DMS. Email? Dont make me laugh, her DMS probably checks for neuron signals or change of chemicals in bloodstream.

The thing is, it also falls under blind assault. You try to off Bonesaw without knowing what shit she put into her own body - you begging for COVID-2219. And scanning as part of attack sequence wont really work because to scan them in the first place Joe has to pinpoint them, and pinpointing them IS major risk Joe is not willing to take. I did write about it already previously dammit.

Not attacking him ahead of time would make about as much sense as not attacking him at all then. Because if anything can trigger it, then maybe his death can trigger it. Or even his capture. So to be safe he'd have to scan the entirety of earth Bet, to know that Jack left no surprises that will trigger on event of his defeat. If he's not going to do that? He may as well attack ahead.

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No, you literally have to scan only Jack's ass to see if he has some surprises hidden in his body or if his power is more than he lets people know (I mean last is true but not in the way Joe thinks). Also, thats why his destruction should be absolute: so he has no time to supposedly use his trump card. And remember, Joe knows that Jack wont do THE THING in near future because his passenger is not yelling at him to hurry up and start assault.

Admittedly, that's a point to you, I forgot this. But... if most tinkertech works that way, is it impossible for some of it to work in more canon-like way? Would it make sense if people who have the best connection to their shards would be able to do it? Wouldn't it really fuck Joe up it happened?

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Nope, because scanner already can detect parahuman powers. If someone uses canon tinkertech which is closer to what Dauntless makes Joe still can scan it just fine. After all, its just object imbued with shard's power; there's still link to the shard, and Joe can detect those just fine