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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Squamous Deity said:
While I think it's true to say that the hardline of 'most people hardly care at all about people they don't know personally' is inaccurate, I think it is also true that although most people do have some degree of care for strangers, it isn't that much. I remember seeing a fairly recent poll on Reddit which had thousands of respondents, and there were a bunch of options, but there two most chosen ones were 'you lose a limb' and '10,000 random strangers die instantly, with the latter being the more popular of those two (although accounting for the other options I think it was a large minority rather than a majority).

Now obviously that's just a poll on Reddit, but I do think that it is still a good demonstration of people's regard for strangers. There's definitely better evidence than a poll like that, but I just thought that it's pretty interesting and gets my point across.
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i don't think this indicates the way that people feel towards strangers. I think it's an indication that people cannot fully comprehend big numbers and also don't have to process the weight of their decision if it's abstracted as "a great sum of strangers", just words on a page. When presented with the idea of "10,000 strangers dying" in a hypothetical this-or-that scenario, you don't really have to process the implications or theoretical impact of 10,000 people dying at your hands.

It's like Roger Fisher's classic suggestion for nuclear deterrence
My suggestion was quite simple: Put that needed code number in a little capsule, and then implant that capsule right next to the heart of a volunteer. The volunteer would carry with him a big, heavy butcher knife as he accompanied the President. If ever the President wanted to fire nuclear weapons, the only way he could do so would be for him first, with his own hands, to kill one human being. The President says, "George, I'm sorry but tens of millions must die." He has to look at someone and realize what death is—what an innocent death is. Blood on the White House carpet. It's reality brought home.

When I suggested this to friends in the Pentagon they said, "My God, that's terrible. Having to kill someone would distort the President's judgment. He might never push the button."
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it's simply very easy to stop your consideration of the 10,000 strangers that die in the hypothetical at the abstract concept of "10,000 strangers". that isn't indicative of 'the way that most people view strangers', it's indicative of a cognitive trap that is easy to fall into - the idea of killing 10,000 strangers on it's own is very easy to consider horrible but not altogether very bad, because people dying is bad. But what if, say, you could see some of them? And they were begging and pleading for their lives, that you might spare them by incurring some other cost to yourself? What if you were forced to pull the trigger, in accordance with that choice? What if you had to watch as they were all lined up one-by-one?

also as mentioned, you're citing a reddit poll, so a decent number of the responses were probably instances of someone going "what is the most evil thing i could pick here" and similar. ergo, it's either a terrible demonstration of your point, or your point is itself terrible.
 
MagicalAmbitions said:
i don't think this indicates the way that people feel towards strangers. I think it's an indication that people cannot fully comprehend big numbers and also don't have to process the weight of their decision if it's abstracted as "a great sum of strangers", just words on a page. When presented with the idea of "10,000 strangers dying" in a hypothetical this-or-that scenario, you don't really have to process the implications or theoretical impact of 10,000 people dying at your hands.

It's like Roger Fisher's classic suggestion for nuclear deterrence

it's simply very easy to stop your consideration of the 10,000 strangers that die in the hypothetical at the abstract concept of "10,000 strangers". that isn't indicative of 'the way that most people view strangers', it's indicative of a cognitive trap that is easy to fall into - the idea of killing 10,000 strangers on it's own is very easy to consider horrible but not altogether very bad, because people dying is bad. But what if, say, you could see some of them? And they were begging and pleading for their lives, that you might spare them by incurring some other cost to yourself? What if you were forced to pull the trigger, in accordance with that choice? What if you had to watch as they were all lined up one-by-one?

also as mentioned, you're citing a reddit poll, so a decent number of the responses were probably instances of someone going "what is the most evil thing i could pick here" and similar. ergo, it's either a terrible demonstration of your point, or your point is itself terrible.
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Well, I think that the fact that people don't think about numbers like that is kind of part of my point, since the fact is that people don't care, regardless of whether their lack of care is a pure lack of empathy or just an difficulty with understanding large numbers.

I suppose that when I think of the word 'stranger', I think more of someone who you've never met, so if you saw them beg they wouldn't be strangers, but now that I think about it that's probably an overly restrictive definition.

I am of course aware that people on Reddit will not necessarily answer with what they would actually choose, but in this specific case there were a lot of people genuinely defending their choice under the post, so at least a large portion of them seem to have been genuine.
 
Not at all relevant to the current topic but with being Alchemy inherit in people would the endbringers also be considered part of that. Like we know at least that shards can learn from it with Victor being pushed to learn more about it so it can't be a distinction on species, maybe free will or intelligence but those are kinda blurry. Really the biggest question is, are we going to have to deal with a superpowered Simurgh pulling off city wide alchemy circles enhanced vea macro telekinesis? Just imagine the things she could do.

Shudders.
 
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UnknownMage said:
Not at all relevant to the current topic but with being Alchemy inherit in people would the endbringers also be considered part of that. Like we know at least that shards can learn from it with Victor being pushed to learn more about it so it can't be a distinction on species, maybe free will or intelligence but those are kinda blurry. Really the biggest question is, are we going to have to deal with a superpowered Simurgh pulling off city wide alchemy circles enhanced vea macro telekinesis? Just imagine the things she could do.

Shudders.
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I mean. The Simurgh would probably leap right to human transmutation and get a visit from the smiley no-eyes guy.
 
derpydude9001 said:
What would truth take from her? Sight? Scream?
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I think there'd be good odds that Truth would be incredibly rough on Ziz, assuming they didn't just kill her on sight.

If I recall correctly, Truth introduces itself as some sort of gestalt of all life in creation right and then goes "so basically god" during their introduction.

Ziz is part of a species that has transcended genocide to explore new frontiers of deprave crimes against life, the universe, and everything. A project Ziz wants to take control of and continue for her benefit.

What would the reflected judgment of the universe do to punish something so callously selfish? So utterly pointlessly cruel?

If the one of the endbringers, or the shards themselves, touch alchemy in a way that allows Truth access I think the question isn't what it'll take, it's what it'll chose to leave behind.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I think there'd be good odds that Truth would be incredibly rough on Ziz, assuming they didn't just kill her on sight.

If I recall correctly, Truth introduces itself as some sort of gestalt of all life in creation right and then goes "so basically god" during their introduction.

Ziz is part of a species that has transcended genocide to explore new frontiers of deprave crimes against life, the universe, and everything. A project Ziz wants to take control of and continue for her benefit.

What would the reflected judgment of the universe do to punish something so callously selfish? So utterly pointlessly cruel?

If the one of the endbringers, or the shards themselves, touch alchemy in a way that allows Truth access I think the question isn't what it'll take, it's what it'll chose to leave behind.
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Probably trap it or remove it's power and leave it to sit and watch as the universe -multiverse- and life move on and evolve without it or something like that, sort of a karmatic justice. It get's to live forever but unable to do anything but be a silent watcher as the life they sought to use for their own means moves on to exceed and become better than they ever were.

Makes me think of how the tenth Doctor punished the family of blood actualy now that I think about it, and those were quite cruel.
 
Xedornox said:
Probably trap it or remove it's power and leave it to sit and watch as the universe -multiverse- and life move on and evolve without it or something like that, sort of a karmatic justice. It get's to live forever but unable to do anything but be a silent watcher as the life they sought to use for their own means moves on to exceed and become better than they ever were.

Makes me think of how the tenth Doctor punished the family of blood actualy now that I think about it, and those were quite cruel.
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I don't think the Simurgh is capable of being punished. It's essentially a robot following a variety of orders in line with an in-built priority system, not something that desires or feels loss like humans understand. It's not hooked up to human brain feedback like so many other shards.

I'm sure the Truth would take something away from it that's symbolically meaningful, as per its usual MO, but I doubt the Simurgh would have much reaction other than to catalogue what benefit the network can receive for what price.
 
AGiantB said:
But would Truth not know this, and base what it takes on that? Something that the Simurgh or Shards can't afford to lose, or at least what they think they can't
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Oh yeah, most definitely. But it won't make the Simurgh grow emotions to suffer that fate with.

And I'd bet the price would still only apply to the Simurgh as an individual; even if The Truth ruins it beyond repair, other shards will be able to learn from the incident. I'd imagine they'd want lots of host data before attempting direct use of alchemical phenomena again though, to whatever level that The Truth got involved at least.
 
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Lord, two question, could Joe use Lung to make a magic core from Fate similar to the one Artoria has?
And could he use his Noble Phantasm to aquire Mistery while using the photonic computer to speed up the process or would it not function because separated from "Gaia"?
 
White_Chaos said:
Lord, two question, could Joe use Lung to make a magic core from Fate similar to the one Artoria has?
And could he use his Noble Phantasm to acquire Mystery while using the photonic computer to speed up the process or would it not function because separated from "Gaia"?
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I'm pretty sure that Faith ("Mystery") is a function of Alaya rather then Gaia. Dragons are probably dependent upon Gaia since they're a Phantasmic Species though so no Magic Cores from Dragons. It should be possible to just straight-up make artificial Cores though.
 
Doormaker dog, good Celestial Forge story that seems to be sadly dead, had a pretty good Truth meets Shard scene. The thing the Truth ended up taking from the shard was it's ability to connect to other beings. (Host, Shards, the wider network,) So that story has that shard blasting into empty space to not connect to the truth, that while the data is plentiful it doesn't hold the answer, annoying a lot of shards at the same time with the repetitive message because again the Former shard was blasting it into the void not knowing if any other shard was hearing its call.

In this story if the Simurgh would have gone pass that barrier, I have the feeling that the Simurgh would be smart enough to avoid the stupidly risky area of Alchemy that seems to result in hosts getting mutilated, the Truth could take away her ability to control and direct her siblings. We'll still being dealing with a superpower Simurgh but a lot of the future potential of making the world worst would be lessened at the same time.
 
Dur'id the Druid said:
Really need to figure out if these unexpected threats happening one after another or near simultaneously are butterfly effects from Aperion, or deliberate actions by Contessa or the space pigeon.
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Joe's "precog" is his passenger knowledge from canon. The more you deviate from the original story, the less accurate it is. And at that point, the canon storyline is shot, set on fire and buried.

As for why...

March: came to the city to follow her kiss/kill crush (Flechette). Flechette was sent because a promising rogue healer said (to Panacea) he could collaborate with the PRT, but not the local branch.

Uber & Leet: already there, but March made them dangerous.

The Butcher: officially was invited by March. For what, we don't know, but it might have something to do with the shardspace breach.

The travellers: they want a cure for Noelle, and think Apeiron could be that cure. Coil snatched them thanks to Apeiron's connection to the Undersiders.

Dragon: she is compelled to follow Apeiron since he promised to save her.

Dragonslayers: they followed Dragon.

Blasto and the children: they came to BB to get revenge from a strike from U&L under the guidance of March.

Uppercrust: he want healing.

S9: they want to crush the hope bring forth by Apeiron since he dealt with the ABB.

As you can see, Apeiron butterflyied every major group that weren't in Brockton Bay at the start of the story, generally because of his healing powers (first privatly used on Panacea, then very publicly used on the Undies). Without his healing powers, BB would be... a lot calmer. A lot closer to the original story.

And yeah, Contessa and Ziz are fairly innocent. I mean, they set up some pieces on the board, but they are not responsible for the epic gambit pileup in this city.
 
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Nimeroni said:
And yeah, Contessa and Ziz are fairly innocent. I mean, they set up some pieces on the board, but they are not responsible for the epic gambit pileup in this city.
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Ehh~ *waggles hand* Contessa/Caldron set up Brockton Bay to be their parahuman feudalism experiment. Granted, aside from inserting Coil and withholding extra resources (stuff like Contessa smoothing things like she does elsewhere in various ways) they were pretty hands off.

Also, Ziz had the Travelers, Echidna and Tagg in that city (well, the last only happened in canon), so I can't say she wasn't involved either.

Edit: My point is, they are likely not at fault for it happening in this specific way, but they enabled it to happen in the first place.
 
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Nimeroni said:
March: came to the city to follow her kiss/kill crush (Flechette). Flechette was sent because a promising rogue healer said (to Panacea) he could collaborate with the PRT, but not the local branch.

Uber & Leet: already there, but March made them dangerous.

The Butcher: officially was invited by March. For what, we don't know, but it might have something to do with the shardspace breach.

The travellers: they want a cure for Noelle, and think Apeiron could be that cure. Coil snatched them thanks to Apeiron's connection to the Undersiders.

Dragon: she is compelled to follow Apeiron since he promised to save her.

Dragonslayers: they followed Dragon.

Blasto and the children: they came to BB to get revenge from a strike from U&L under the guidance of March.

Uppercrust: he want healing.

S9: they want to crush the hope bring forth by Apeiron since he dealt with the ABB.
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Quite a lot of incoming people are ones following other people there. It sort of make a funny image in my head.
 
Nimeroni said:
Joe's "precog" is his passenger knowledge from canon. The more you deviate from the original story, the less accurate it is. And at that point, the canon storyline is shot, set on fire and buried.

As for why...

March: came to the city to follow her kiss/kill crush (Flechette). Flechette was sent because a promising rogue healer said (to Panacea) he could collaborate with the PRT, but not the local branch.

Uber & Leet: already there, but March made them dangerous.

The Butcher: officially was invited by March. For what, we don't know, but it might have something to do with the shardspace breach.

The travellers: they want a cure for Noelle, and think Apeiron could be that cure. Coil snatched them thanks to Apeiron's connection to the Undersiders.

Dragon: she is compelled to follow Apeiron since he promised to save her.

Dragonslayers: they followed Dragon.

Blasto and the children: they came to BB to get revenge from a strike from U&L under the guidance of March.

Uppercrust: he want healing.

S9: they want to crush the hope bring forth by Apeiron since he dealt with the ABB.

As you can see, Apeiron butterflyied every major group that weren't in Brockton Bay at the start of the story, generally because of his healing powers (first privatly used on Panacea, then very publicly used on the Undies). Without his healing powers, BB would be... a lot calmer. A lot closer to the original story.

And yeah, Contessa and Ziz are fairly innocent. I mean, they set up some pieces on the board, but they are not responsible for the epic gambit pileup in this city.
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You forgot the pilgrimage of C53s coming to pray to their LordRoustabout and Saviour ask Apeiron for surgery
 
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