Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Well, he wouldn't have needed to heal Panacea and Flechette wouldn't have been asked to come without the Aegislash and other super!knife caused injuries, so it wasn't just his healing tech that is the issue. Also, the Shards and their hunger for the delicious Data! Apeiron the Enigmatic Artificer provides must also be blamed.
 
Two things I haven't really seen either side of the current debate really process are Joe's capabilities and Joe's experiences.

For Joe, literally everything he makes is something that'd be a central figure in some kind of myth. That is the scale he works at at a baseline now, if I recall the WoG rightly. I saw someone try to disprove Star Trek scanners being used earlier, but really, with the sort of stuff Joe has, he could probably get an atomic scan of everything in a million mile radius without issue. The issue is hiding the fact he did it, something that brings me swiftly into my next point.

Tinkers are bullshit. Hell, capes in general are bullshit in their areas of specialization. And the Slaughterhouse 9 is not made of chumps. Joe's still trying to crack Bakuda's Deadman Switch at this very moment, and when you consider the sort of timeframe Joe operates on, the fact it's held up this long is downright ridiculous.

Joe's scale is downright mythological in nature and Bakuda's still hanging in there. THIS is Joe's impression of the average Tinker. Not Iron Man armor or whatever. Attacks worthy of designation as a WMD, shat out casually from half-scrapped projects and soda cans that have demanded response with proportional force.

I don't think it'd be unfair to say that the code for it has to be at least like, half pure power construct from the shard, to focus back on that. Given how Tinker shards in general work, as per Wildbow's explanations of them being essentially Elder Shards that have run out of easy ways to test their abilities and effectively choose to take a totemic route to express this wide variety of abilities through pretending to make devices that express the actual effect, I don't think anyone can really conceptualize the sheer potential depth or breadth with full confidence. Hell, I can't help but feel our boy Joe got a bit shafted on getting his own Tinker power, when put into context like that. Just because the Worm doc is playing by 'understandable technology' rules doesn't mean actual Tinkers are. Kinda puts into perspective how WH40k tech was needed to figure out this stuff initially, given the upper level of how exotic it can get. They're used to the Warp's fuckery.

Tinkers are bullshit and Joe's had experience finding out exactly how bullshit they are, without even necessarily knowing the outstanding factors or having a solid baseline to compare the extreme end to. Joe sees Bonesaw and Mannequin, and sees two capes that outstrip Bakuda and Leet, who were effectively nobodies and bad jokes before everything that happened. Admittedly, he ain't far off, either, given Jack's Thinker/Master power putting them in places where they'd be most effective for his own sake. But while we can say something along the lines of, 'Oh, it's fine, they aren't actually that dangerous by comparison,' not only is that coming from a place of ignorance as to what their capabilities when going up against Apeiron will be, Joe's even more in the dark and off-balance.

Now, Joe's confident about the fight anyways, for good reason. He's cracking the Deadman's Switch. He's gotten overhauls for tons of stuff. He's at the point where very little threatens him, but he's not the kind of person who's going to jump the gun because of confidence alone. Pride Mantra has probably taken something of a toll on him, there, but he's got about a day or two to be sure he's not about to walk into an improbable deathtrap, which goes by a lot faster and a lot slower for him than us, and explicitly only in ways that benefit him. For all he knew at the start of this chapter, the Siberian could telefrag him before his armor got a chance to pop off. Even if she doesn't punch through Life Fibers, there's a lot of meat that she could probably scratch.

Even minor brain damage would be a major difficulty tweak for him, under cover of some unprecedented stealth effect, or his scans could've been detected by some nebulously defined Tinker device or Crawler sense if he went for the high fidelity and resulted in the Slaughterhouse 9 running for their lives under threat of Tungsten Chimpanzee, meaning a delay in his execution of them while he's stuck in the persona he has until he gets something that lets him just do whatever. I'm decently aware of how improbable this actually is, but for Joe, the chance is big enough to be a real concern. Hell, no investigation as to what's up and he wouldn't even figure out Manton's a thing. He seemingly takes out the Siberian through, let's say Spiral or something, only for her to pop up in another city three weeks later. No reason for Joe to pursue a civilian vehicle that he might not even be paying attention to - It's Dinah's Amber Alert all over again.

Remember, he doesn't know what Jack's power is, either, other than it's been subtle and opened up a staggering amount of opportunities for the S9. Inference would indicate some kind of probability manipulation or coincidence-creation, something like Shamrock's power. And since we're talking probability here, well, the odds of something like the Unholy Hour happening were slim, but not none. It happened, and he's not about to take a risk like that when annihilators and such are involved, and... Oh, hey, look, they've got a Siberian.

Only tangentially related to this, but there's another point I'd like to bring up. In this story, even simple or outright self-destructive powers can reveal immense hidden depths. That's what this story was supposed to be about, if I recall Lord's word correctly. Experience also matters quite a bit, when these powers come up. I don't think it'd be an exaggeration to say that if everyone stopped envisioning every single power as a single superpower but rather as somewhere between a thousand and a quadrillion minor powers all coming together to make one central power/powerset, it'd probably help everyone with the scaling. Tinker shards, probably towards the higher end of this, given the variety of things they're supposed to test and they should be old.

Overall, I think everyone's made some good points, and while I can't really make up what side I'm on fully, whether it'd be better for Joe to wait for them to walk just a little too far and make a show of them or just execute them with all the fanfare of making a completely normal sandwich, what I will say is, I find it really weird that Joe's got any difficulty finding anything on the planet. He doesn't need superpower scans to detect something as weirdly shaped as Crawler. Or Mannequin. Or Shatterbird's dress. Or Murder Rat. The list goes on. It's only not a SoD breaker by merit of Joe trying to keep as light a touch as possible, thus probably using tech from like, a week ago. It's the little things, y'know?
 
It's only not a SoD breaker by merit of Joe trying to keep as light a touch as possible, thus probably using tech from like, a week ago

Exactly, he could go all big brother, but as you said, powers are bullshit and one would inevitably see his active scans, and it only takes one shard to know for the network to know. The only sensor that shards can't detect are the fiat ones, but those only have a very short range that cannot be boosted, cause fiat. So joe could build a world wide scanner to see everything but bad things would happen, we know the extent and what he needs to do, but he does not.
 
Good points.

Sooooo...about tinkertech.

Given how Tinker shards in general work, as per Wildbow's explanations of them being essentially Elder Shards that have run out of easy ways to test their abilities and effectively choose to take a totemic route to express this wide variety of abilities through pretending to make devices that express the actual effect, I don't think anyone can really conceptualize the sheer potential depth or breadth with full confidence.
Huh, first time hear about this WoG. Well, it just means that BCF is diverging from Wildbow's vision on this one.

Because in BCF tinkertech is not totems-that-pretend-to-be-technology for Elder Shards to focus their power on, it is all genuine technology that Shards collected from their previous cycles. Well, yeah, like Worm's jumpdoc said it.
Tinker: Whereas other parahumans get the power to do incredible things, Tinkers get the ability to build incredible things. Tinkers essentially have a database of extremely advanced scientific data and technology in their heads, letting them build and create things far ahead of their time. This data follows a certain theme, whether that be bombs, efficiency, vehicles, or otherwise which defines what their power lets them build and work with. Tinkers need resources, time, and effort to do what other parahumans can do casually, but they are incredibly adaptable, able to show up to the next fight able to completely shut down opponents that were untouchable in their last encounter, all because they can build the right tool. Within their specialty a Tinker can build nearly anything they can imagine. Tinker abilities seamlessly integrate any such knowledge of technology and science you possess, meaning you don't have to make any extra effort to use your powers along with any other tech based perks you might have. The knowledge you gain is basically the collected science of hundreds of advanced civilizations within your area of expertise. You don't necessary have the capability to process and sort through it all at once, but your power will continue to feed you data and knowledge relevant to your endeavors and what you're building.

And a bit of a WoG from Lord:
Q:
And if he really wants to get wild with that memory technology, he can use it for interrogations. Who needs spies when you can download their memories and erase the event! Oh, and he can master capes too. Awesome! Master a whole lot of villains into working for him. Maybe even download tinker schematics from another tinker's brain.

A:
Interrogations will be one of the best uses, though if it gets out he has that level of tech a lot of people are going to be terrified of him and the potential threat to their organizations. Tinker schematics are an excellent application, though probably a bit complex to manage since I think the shard has an active role in construction rather than just providing data (Bonesaw mentioned needing to do remote surgery on Hatchetface to keep her powers active).

Xenoarcheaologist would be a stronger version of the Gears of War perk and would provide a lot of bonuses with alien lifeforms and technology (shards and tinker tech fall into these categories)

So yeah, Tinkers have working schematics in their heads that can be stolen with memory tech (I wonder if someone ask about Victor). And Shards providing data and helping with construction (and maintenance) of technology. The second point also explains how tinkers are capable of creating a cold-fusion reactor with a box of scraps (IN A CAVE!).
 
I'd figure Victor's shard would be focused on meatbrain skills, not what it can get scans of from other Shards (tho it might have given prior hosts in earlier cycles if it played at a "tinker" who could ping other shards to copy schematics)
 
I'd figure Victor's shard would be focused on meatbrain skills, not what it can get scans of from other Shards (tho it might have given prior hosts in earlier cycles if it played at a "tinker" who could ping other shards to copy schematics)
I mean, I have a post here showing that it is canon that Victor can take subtlety, restraint, willpower and pain tolerance so I wouldn't put it past him.
 
Passenger: oh I like this person

Mc: really, well here's my full name and address, SSN, my bank account info, also here's how my powers work and everything they can do goodbye.

Exaggerated yes but that's how I feel at this point

And the Passenger feels like a straight up fanboy and saying that it cares for mcs safety is also wrong given how we know it knows about coil yet has the Mc join a group run by coil where all information of the Mc is ending up just for what someone who would most likely be fine anyways. I always hated those scenarios where mcs just enter a conflict to help someone they view positively when they know full well that person would be fine without them.

But yea Mc isn't judging ppl based on their actions he's mostly judging based on what the Passenger tells him and we both know the Passenger is a fanboy but I'm not saying he's not useful when he says someone's dangerous they are but that doesn't mean that just because it says someone is good that you should just trust them to have your best interests in mind, like in the convo with Panacea he should have already thought of what to say before hand cause he talks way too much. Another thing I don't like is how fast he joins a group tho not really a member still he had his abilities for a week and only one fight which he won by sheer luck and after that nothing he doesn't do any patrols to build up experience and get used to being in a high stress situation he just builds and continues digging his own grave doing shxt without thinking about it not really planning his moves and to me the Passenger is just a plot device it doesn't actually help it seems to have meta knowledge but it does nothing other than tell Mc who's it likes and who it doesn't, it doesn't try and stop him from making dumb mistakes, saying something stupid.

(I would put more but I'm on my phone and I don't like typing on phones soo. Tho I will keep reading to see if any of the issues get addressed and patched out )
And also don't hit me with the oh characters need to make mistakes they can't be perfect, I know that it's just that I've read so many books where ppl use that to just have the characters make stupid mistakes just to move the plot along, the Mc has been written to seem intelligent but there are just some places where that intelligence just dissappears there are certain mistake that ppl in certain situation don't make unless their drunk, high, or sleep deprived.
 
Passenger: oh I like this person

Mc: really, well here's my full name and address, SSN, my bank account info, also here's how my powers work and everything they can do goodbye.

Exaggerated yes but that's how I feel at this point
What chapter are u on? Cuz that complaint sounds like its for really old chapters. Keep reading. It gets better. There were a lot of issues in the beginning.
 
Passenger: oh I like this person

Mc: really, well here's my full name and address, SSN, my bank account info, also here's how my powers work and everything they can do goodbye.

Exaggerated yes but that's how I feel at this point

It was an entirely fair criticism... 70 chapters ago. Now we call it a plot point, because it was addressed within the story itself (basically "thinkers tend to rely too much on their powers to do the thinking for them. Joe is no exception."), and it have consequences that are still felt to this day.

In short, it's good storytelling.
 
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It was an entirely fair criticism... 70 chapters ago. Now we call it a plot point, because it was addressed within the story itself (basically "thinkers tend to rely too much on their powers to do the thinking for them. Joe is no exception."), and it have consequences that are still felt to this day.

In short, it's good storytelling.
Wait, people are still complaining that Thinkers dont Think? Isnt that a Canon Worm thing?
 
BCF pretending that theres any possibility Joe will ever lose at this point is pretty ridiculous,and I'm kinda tired of it.
That being said, at this point we can't say for sure Joe can win against an Entity. He still has trouble getting into the right mindset to use Spiral, doesn't have enough people worshipping him to break past level 3 Mantra, and only just sent out a proper research vessel into Shardspace for more information on how they work.

He also understands that having more powers lessens the chance of something catastrophic happening if things go wrong, say Scion wiping out the Eastern Seaboard instead of the entire North American Continent. If the morality of acknowledging the massive loss of life doesn't make you think, that's still 8% of Earth Bet gone poof, 17% of all Earth Bet's habitable land up in smoke in the first blow, you better believe he's taking it seriously even with the vague impressions from his passenger about it.

That continent going poof was Scion holding back in Canon Gold Morning by the by, being beaten by Khepri was Scion choosing to die. If Joe were to attack Scion right now he would fight back and no one knows what that is really going to look like, closest we get is when he fought Eidolon and he only needed his version of PTV to demoralize him into being killed. Sure Joe's OCP power and Fate spoofing will stop that from working, it just leaves Scion with his vast array of planet cracking, multi dimensional, only needed against other Entity level, Shard Powers.

There's plenty more reasons other posters can come up with, but these are what stand out to me, and I'm also one of those unusual people who believe in that "trust in the author" trope. If there's something that stands out as improbable based on my own understanding of the setting these powers come from, I'll call out and hope someone sees what I'm seeing and agree, or even disagree and show me where I went wrong in my knowledge of the situation. I've even been checking up on all these settings the powers come from, been watching Tenchi Muyo! War on Gemini, reading Girl Genius, I even got XCOM so I could understand the technology that Joe is using better.

Putting Simon or Asura in Joe's situation and saying they could beat Scion, maybe they could beat him without anyone else dying, but this is Joe's problem to solve not theirs, it was put on Taylor's shoulders when no one wanted to join together and fight against Scion, so she did the only thing she could and made them fight. Joe's answer is to build up, understand how Shards work, and make sure as few people as possible get killed while he does that.
 
True true, the endgame is all about beating Scion(and, apparently avoiding network collapse if Ward is something to go by? I dunno, never read ward).
I'm really happy that things are picking up again, it's just that the time to get here was ridiculous.
Than you should probably decide if thats a deal breaker for you or not. Lord has already tried speeding up his writing style and nearly got burnt out, so went back to this. And has stated that if people want things like the UH and the Summit, he needs to be able to write the times inbetween in the Workshop etc.
 
Than you should probably decide if thats a deal breaker for you or not. Lord has already tried speeding up his writing style and nearly got burnt out, so went back to this. And has stated that if people want things like the UH and the Summit, he needs to be able to write the times inbetween in the Workshop etc.
I personally don't mind the rate in which the story progresses, sure it can sometimes feel slow and tedious but to be honest it's become part of my week's routine to sit down and read it when the chapter is released -not counting delay's obviously- with most stories I can read it out within a few day's maybe a week depending on just how long it is and most of the time those are either already finished or straight up abandoned so to have something that has been reliably updating for as long as this has and at such a steady rate, yes please.
 
It sounds like you are missing cosmogone from the quotes?

"Apocyan was as far removed from cosmogone" but the description of what cosmogone is was missing.

I think the important part is this:

"Apocyan was sharp and aggressive. The color looked greenish-blue in recordings, but in reality it burned with the promise of the future. Not the warm thoughts of comfortable days, but the beating drive to an ambitious and unknown future."
 
I think the important part is this:

"Apocyan was sharp and aggressive. The color looked greenish-blue in recordings, but in reality it burned with the promise of the future. Not the warm thoughts of comfortable days, but the beating drive to an ambitious and unknown future."
Yes, that's what Apocyan is. But since it was made into a threadmark telling what all the colors were, I was making sure they knew that they missed one from their post.
 
Exactly, he could go all big brother, but as you said, powers are bullshit and one would inevitably see his active scans, and it only takes one shard to know for the network to know. The only sensor that shards can't detect are the fiat ones, but those only have a very short range that cannot be boosted, cause fiat. So joe could build a world wide scanner to see everything but bad things would happen, we know the extent and what he needs to do, but he does not.

I'm not an expert on Worm canon but I know that there are a bunch of pseudo-eldritch abominations with freaky and abstract powers.

In regards to careless scanning the world, would a tool be enough of a buff to peep on Mama Mathers ("if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.")?

Does Mental Fortress protect Joe from Mama?

___

The Cycle has been going on a long time. There must be some form of dynamic monitoring in place. Even if Scion is functioning at the same level as Emma's empathy, there must be some kind of Shard-level automatic warnings and responses in place.

Could the Shards induce unreasonable antagonism to Joe? Suddenly having the majority of both heroic and villainous capes feeling uninhibited, resentful, and violent toward Joe sounds like a stereotypical comic book arc.
 
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Exactly, he could go all big brother, but as you said, powers are bullshit and one would inevitably see his active scans, and it only takes one shard to know for the network to know. The only sensor that shards can't detect are the fiat ones, but those only have a very short range that cannot be boosted, cause fiat. So joe could build a world wide scanner to see everything but bad things would happen, we know the extent and what he needs to do, but he does not.
Some reasons he does not, per WoG:

And to clarify something about Star Trek sensors, yes they are fantastic, but they are by no means subtle. Star Trek sensors involve sending out incredible amounts of energy through subspace towards whatever you are scanning. Every starship is able to register when they are being targeted by scanners and often what is specifically being scanned. Stat Trek principles are part of the normal physics of the universe and are not protected by any black box of fiat effect. Throwing out energetic beams from an extra-spatial layer is going to draw a lot of attention, especially considering the fact that Shards naturally exist on a multidimensional level. That's the problem with most of Joe's best scanners. There is a huge difference between active and passive scanning, and if Joe is trying to avoid notice, he needs to focus on passive scans and use active scanning sparingly, not just blanket the planet with Starfleet grade lifeform scans.
 
Does Mental Fortress protect Joe from Mama?

"Mental Fortress - Your sense of individuality and self is so strong that invasive influences find your mind impenetrable. Whether it's Mind Control, Emotion Manipulation, Thought Reading, or any other kind of mind-messing mojo - You are the sole master of your own psyche. You can also see through outside manipulation and illusion more easily. Your art becomes famous for its originality and unique style, whatever you decide to apply this to."

Going by the description of the perk, I'd say that he'd be entirely immune to her abilities.
 
I would say the person monitoring the drones would be Survey, not Jozef personally. Imagine Mama seeing all that Survey sees. Could she handle that much imput? Probably....

Edit: I had forgotten the "shards are incompatable with psionics" thing. Sorry Mama!
 
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