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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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The Author Already comment that in the previous chapter, in this one and in the answers he posts in Archive of our own.

By allowing this to be 'worded' as reaction all precogs and govern will not freak out. basically said he would keep the peace of the city, he said he would enforced it. So, they will just add the 'do not poke Apeiron' with more 'power' to said words.

Like Apeiron is confided saying (which is something important to note). this will be not be a fight. He could literally just throw a perfect crafted, perfect engineered warp grenade. and call the job done. The MC want Jack complete erased, and the idea of the nine destroyed. And he has enough power and skill to make so with no death (in the city).

Instead of treating the guy like the machine army and other threats that most be restrict at 'all cost'. Since cauldron and other would freak out if they think Apeiron is not limited by contracts and his word.

So, even the healing is being careful being worded to be the 'spite' of a mercenary. Said deviations should move [edit: grown] with time.

otherwise the global lvl reaction and panic would cause more death that the 9 trying to stealthy approach the city. And being 'helped' by the MC in the way to reduce death even more. The dude has divine administration skills and divine AIs. I think he got this :D

xxxx

Many thanks for the chapter^^, the time to (again) comment in chapter about these complications, the care and time you put on this. And the amount of time you give each member of the 'hosts/cast' in the team in this chapter :D
 
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LordRoustabout said:
Outside of caps society
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That should be cape I believe.
LordRoustabout said:
"Garment's work displays considerable innovation and tactical potential, but it's us against the Slaughterhouse Nine will be dependent on the conditions of our engagement with them."
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I believe there is something missing between these two words because this sentence doesn't sound quite right. That or it is just phrased improperly.
LordRoustabout said:
I said I wanted to destroy the Nine as a concept. You can do that if you leave living monuments to their barbarity spread across the country
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You can't do that if...
 
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Yeah, okay, no, we are not doing it again. Whatever argument you people want to write about "Joe should act NOW!" 99.6% chance it was already said and rebuked week before. Just head to the previous chapter and scroll down.


Man, the Matrix really, REALLY determined to become the definition of the Walking Apocalypse. I think there's no argument that out of entire CF only Tetra has any chance to compete with them in "Destroy the Earth speeding any%"
 
Oof, apologies to all for bringing up a settled matter. I don't always have time to read all the comments. Especially when the author is prolific enough to give us 10-20k word count chapters.
 
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Joe is going for a culture victory with the S9. He wants to keep his reputation of only acting for contracts intact along with the divination cloaking as well. Him reacting to "protect" the peace of the city from the S9 per the villain meeting could be used to justify his extreme methods of destruction used against the S9. If he sent out a army of drones to try away from the city to blow up the S9 everyone would freak out. There would also be the possibility that the army of drones would fail to kill all the S9 depending on whatever new members might exist or if they were detected somehow allowing them to escape. And of course the response from the PRT on detecting a fleet of killer drones being sent a state away would be extreme and would probably warrant a visit from the Triumvirate which is kind of the opposite of what Apeiron wants...

And before someone says his drones are stealthy Apeiron has mentioned several times in story his stealth technology is not fool proof and with the insane amount of shards scanning the city for that juicy juicy data a fleet of stealth drones would be detected sooner than later.
 
mastigos said:
Am I the only one noticing that Joe keeps running into problems that should be solved by old powers but the powers are "three days old" and thus have fallen out of his immediate awareness?

Particularly in terms of intermediary powers that neither provide databases of new technology nor direct supernatural effect but instead offer a new or improved approach to crafting without being a general augmentation. Ex. The ability to hybridize completely disparate pieces of technology or bypass the requirement for rare materials at cost of chance of failure
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Part of it I think is just a lot of the crafting details and research and development in general being only talked about broadly now or having it done in the background (duplicates). For Waste Not, at this point most material he can just transmute and there are cases where the 50% chance thing isn't something he wants to use if what he's working on is complex and dangerous especially if it's something like new experimental magitech or exotic matter/energy research/applications.

Vanta said:
Yeah, there was that hybridization power that was fiat-backed right? Can't he just use that?
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IIRC, it was due to that perk being limited to machinery and there being diminishing returns since to repeat hybridize you need to actually be able to understand the resulting hybridized product which often is or becomes incomprehensible due to the amount of fiat involved in making the hybrization work. Also, hybridizing is already being done with stuff but the results are more general buffs via stacking existing capabilities (not mixing to output/create new unique ones).

Paloswag said:
Yeah, I'll have to read the last chapter again but I just realized now that Joe intends to let the Slaughterhouse reach the city. Not sure why he doesn't fire ordinance at range when they're in the open, since he just drew a bunch of people to Brockton for Garment's charity auction. Even if the auction happens before they get there, it seems like an unnecessary risk. It brings to mind a quote from Peter Dinklage about Season 8 Tyrion's "Women and children in the crypt" plan. "Tyrion is... smart, but I guess not that smart."

The author's way of creating credible threats by stacking canon characters has been both plausible and interesting to read, but this is the first time where it's breaking my suspension of disbelief a bit. I know it's a faux paus to bring up suspension of disbelief in a fantasy/scifi story with eldritch mind computers and superpowers, but this is a canon Slaughterhouse with no apparent buffs or plan against a technologically superior main character with both early detection and power analysis/tracking. I must have missed a detail because something is not clicking.
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I'd suggest a reread of the two chapters since a lot of things can be missed during the first reading as well as some of the WoG in the AO3 comments.

Like others have said, Joe plans for it to be a complete stomp. He's gonna counter whatever they throw around and with the level of prep including surveillance, Joe isn't gonna let things like hostage taking to succeed or even take place (in Brockton at least since I expect the Nine to have hostages from outside the city).

All the reasons from before on why he doesn't launch an attack still stand. You have to remember that there are national and international consequences. The ripples will affect hundreds of thousands at least. The reason he doesn't just drone army/nuke the Nine is because of the fallout. If he goes after those with kill orders, then other groups that have kill orders or highly contentious legal standings are gonna panic and do desperate things to prepare for the expecting conflict. Joe can see the scale of this especially due to the alien/inhuman perspective and knowledge he has which is why we also read his thoughts on why he's accepted this course of action as it is one that minimizes death.

He understands that getting all these groups around the globe panicked all at once is not a smart thing. I see preemptively and unexpectedly attacking the Nine in the way some have suggest as basically putting Joe on a clock of escalating incidents around the globe of panicked and desperate groups wrecking havoc while pillaging for resources, gathering territory, securing leverage, recruiting/conscripting people, etc. Not to mention all the other groups that'd react badly such as governments and precogs and thinkers including the Simurgh. The way Joe plans to do it will avoid that by maintaining the balance and it'll give him more control of the response especially when he does eventually decide to act outside the city and expand his influence and clearly go against the mercenary image/contract-bound expectations. It's also great politically due to the controlled framing, strong justification, powerful show of force, and goodwill that'd be earned from defending the city again, this time from the Nine.

Joe wants to cut off any chance of the Nine getting away. He wants a guaranteed victory. It was mentioned in the previous chapter how there were a lot of unknowns/uncertain factors such as the sensing/detection abilities (Crawler, Shatterbird, unknown new members) or tech/creations (Mannequin, Bonesaw, also remember the parahuman disappearances Survey mentioned) of the Nine. The Siberian's unstoppable force and immovable object thing is no joke especially with how it can be shared and could combo with stuff. That alone would give worry for an avenue of escape especially since Joe doesn't know about the specific weakness of Manton being the Master. Plus there's Jack's power which is another wildcard to Joe as well as any other prep the Nine have. Anyway, these factors are why Joe is basically preparing a mouse trap.

LordRoustabout said:
"Let me know if you need any more help, and don't remember the training later this morning."
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'and remember the training' or 'don't forget the training'
 
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Rhaveno_aethervo said:
Hey lord, due to my inherent laziness is the command and conquer series a part of the celestial forge?
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Only two, and that is counting Red Alert:
LordRoustabout said:
Analysis (Red Alert 3) 100:
You can immediately identify any defects in hardware upon casual observation. This is effective on devices, Vehicles, and buildings.
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LordRoustabout said:
Mauler (Command and Conquer: Tiberium Wars) 400:
You have the skills of a junkyard hound, able to make even the most heavily damaged tech work again. Even machines too battle-damaged for recovery 20 years ago can be effective under your wrench. Repurposing tech and equipment is your forte; you can turn a pneumatic screwdriver into a reasonable cannon, and heaven help your enemies if you get anywhere near mining equipment, as a powerarmored mutant is quickly appearing in their future. There was even one time where you made a toaster into a reasonable facsimile of a flamethrower…..
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From what I can tell, there are no other perks available from that franchise, just these two that have already been obtained. You can check further here
Edit: changed to link, that table was way too large and data hungry.
 
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PsylentFox said:
-snip-
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OK, this complaint has come up several times and several people have tried to answer it, but I want to see if I can clarify things a bit here.

In a recent WOG, LordR mentioned that he thinks the problem is that Joe is trying to account for actions of other parties and that is usually not accounted for in stories. I think this is the main disconnect. A lot of people are making assumptions that other factions will not react to Joe's actions, or will react in a certain way. Joe seems to be taking a broader outlook than most people are.

Cosmic covered most of these points, but let me see if I can illustrate this with an example. As usual, this is overly simplified, but I hope it gets the point across.

Realistically, Joe has two main options for dealing with the S9. Option one is he can wait for them to come to Brockton and strike them once they arrive, while option two is he could launch a preemptive strike. Lets see what the immediate consequences of these possibilities are.

For option one, the S9 would continue hurting people while approaching the city, then be wiped out by the CF. Let's estimate the effective casualties here between 50 - 100 people dead.

For option two, the S9 would get killed immediately. There would be some collateral damage, but as the strike would likely happen in a low population area it wouldn't be that bad. Let's estimate the effective casualties here between 10 - 30 people dead. There's also a chance of some members of the S9 escaping in this scenario, but for now, let's assume Joe prioritizes Jack and the survivors wouldn't be too much of an issue for the sake of simplicity.

At this point, option two would seem like the preferable option. It is also at this point I suspect that most of the readers stop their analysis. However, we have to remember that everyone in this story is an individual with their own goals, priorities, values, etc. and they all take action in their own interests. Any action taken by Joe will have ripple effects. With that in mind, let's go further into the analysis.

In the option one scenario, Joe's actions would shock most groups, but he could manage the reaction. It would be concerning for every major faction, but with the fact that the S9 had approached the city with the clear intent to launch an attack, Joe could frame his actions as a reaction to the S9's aggression. This fits in with most models of his behavior and while other organizations would be concerned, most would likely believe that as long as they don't provoke a reaction they can continue without Aperion deciding to intervene. Some groups might overreact, but most would simply strive to ensure none of their underlings or agents do anything that could provoke Aperion. Let's estimate the effective causalities as a result of this between 1000 - 3000 people dead.

In the option two scenario, Joe would have attacked the S9 before they approached the city. He could try to claim that the S9 were approaching Brockton, but the earlier he strikes the less plausible that explanation becomes. By taking proactive action, not only would Joe call into question the predictions about him, but many major organizations would realize that they might be his next target and likely panic. Remember that this takes place on Earth Bet, where there is no shortage of powerful, morally questionable (or outright evil) organizations. Most of those organizations would take drastic action to shore up their defenses, regardless of the cost. They would not know the threshold necessary for Joe to take action and many would have reason to assume they could be targeted. Even Joe claiming that the kill orders on the S9 constitute a contract, it won't help as there is nothing stopping Joe from taking another contract to eliminate them. In Brockton itself, the gangs would likely make as big of a mess as they could before fleeing the city, while organizations outside the city would likely do whatever they could to increase their numbers, regardless of the long term consequences. There would be many other ripple effects, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll skip them and estimate the effective casualties from this between 5,000 to 25,000 people dead. (Large range because of the wide impact and I still think I'm significantly understating the numbers.)

Based on this extended analysis, it now becomes clear that option one is the preferable option in terms of potential casualties. Thus, if taken in isolation from the reactions of the rest of the world, option two results in less causalities, but if the reactions of other organizations are taken into account, option one results in less causalities.

Once again, I would like to state that this is an overly simplified explanation with the purpose of explaining the thought process of choosing to wait for the S9. The actual dynamics of the encounter have a lot more variables, but the point of this is to illustrate the basic reasoning behind this choice.

From what I can understand, Joe is trying to take care of as many problems as he can discreetly before other factions catch on. Eventually, he will have to go all out, but he is reasonably trying to put that off for as long as he can so he can take care of issues and mitigate consequences.

(edit: SPAG)
 
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ExploerTM said:
Yeah, okay, no, we are not doing it again. Whatever argument you people want to write about "Joe should act NOW!" 99.6% chance it was already said and rebuked week before. Just head to the previous chapter and scroll down.


Man, the Matrix really, REALLY determined to become the definition of the Walking Apocalypse. I think there's no argument that out of entire CF only Tetra has any chance to compete with them in "Destroy the Earth speeding any%"
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I dunno, given the resources available to them from the Workshop, I'm pretty certain that Fleet and Survey could do their own "Earth Bet Destruction Speedrun Any%" with competitive results. Survey in particular would just get more efficient over time. The only problem really is that there's only so much parallel Earths lying around that practicing armageddon speedruns would be impractical to say the least for now.
 
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LordRoustabout said:
Magic functioned on the same basis as parahuman abilities.
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It grates on me every time I meet that statement. Author had already decided on that, but if Entity Powers were real magic, not Clarke-tech (which is different from magic in that it does not utilize mystical forces, it's just undistinguishable from it) then their race wouldn't have a problem with the heat death of the Greater Universe.

Also, divine powers > magic, so Joe actually has a lot of options of trumping even that, because he had already turned into a Cyber-God and a Greek Demigod, but... ninja'd by the chapter itself, even if it ignored again how turning into a God of any description should not be just a cosmetic change, it should've directly uplifted many of his mystical powers to Godly levels making them Divine and thus better than magic.

LordRoustabout said:
[Because of our reaction times to the S9 invasion] There will be problems in the city, and they will be difficult to deal with,
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No, he'll just need to remind people that Apeiron is not an idiot so Anti-Thinker, Anti-Master, Anti-Stranger and Far-Range Detection technologies were among the first on his list of things to do.
 
TheQwertyOne said:
It grates on me every time I meet that statement. Author had already decided on that, but if Entity Powers were real magic, not Clarke-tech (which is different from magic in that it does not utilize mystical forces, it's just undistinguishable from it) then their race wouldn't have a problem with the heat death of the Greater Universe.
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Not really? Because an ongoing theme with magical systems, the ones in this fic included, is that they are often more limited than you might think. It's worth pointing out that no magic Joe has used or has access to can actually defeat entropy, at least in the grander scheme of things. There is always a cost somewhere, whether through souls, mana, or some other form of sacrifice and what not.

Joe's ways of breaking entropy are in two ways: basically with non-magical forms of energy that are specifically stated to break entropy (like the Spiral, though that in turn may also lead to the Spiral End Scenario) or more commonly through fiat-backed effects that literally only function because of plot. Joe's cheating with matter with Workaholic? Fiat. Joe making energy out of nothing? Fiat. Joe flat-out breaking space-time to speed up his construction speed? Fiat. And so on and so forth. And that's without even including the part where differing magic systems can have different limitations and mechanisms, even if they are all "magic". Magecraft for example would have difficulties achieving some of the stuff Evermore Alchemy could do easily, and we all know how anal FMA Alchemy is about human transmutation.

So it makes sense that the Shardtech being treated as a magic system of its own doesn't automatically equate to "defeating heat death". Because magic isn't limitless. That's what the Celestial Forge is for.
 
TheQwertyOne said:
It grates on me every time I meet that statement. Author had already decided on that, but if Entity Powers were real magic, not Clarke-tech (which is different from magic in that it does not utilize mystical forces, it's just undistinguishable from it) then their race wouldn't have a problem with the heat death of the Greater Universe.
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Two things:
1. Parahuman powers are treated by the Forge as if they were magic, that doesn't mean they are actually magic.
2. There is no reason why magic should allow someone to defy entropy. Plenty of magic systems, especially harder ones, explicitly are bound by conservation of energy.
No, he'll just need to remind people that Apeiron is not an idiot so Anti-Thinker, Anti-Master, Anti-Stranger and Far-Range Detection technologies were among the first on his list of things to do.
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Congratulation, that means that one of the few methods people thought they had to predict Apeiron doesn't work. I'm sure absolutely none will respond to this revelation in an irrational manner that will see countless people killed.
 
LordRoustabout said:
"Let me know if you need any more help, and don't remember the training later this morning."
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?
perhaps don't forget?
LordRoustabout said:
"We are going to address all the situations that resulted from the Nine, period. I said I wanted to destroy the Nine as a concept. You can do that if you leave living monuments to their barbarity spread across the country."
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can't

LordRoustabout said:
Workshop: Woodworking (Warehouse) 100:
Each purchase of this adds to your Personal Reality Workshop needed to perform specific type of craft, which is to be specified when purchase is made. It comes with a basic set of tools and supplies. Good for fixing or creating all sorts of things, although any complex parts or nonstandard supplies will have to be brought in from outside. Additional purchases can add different types of Workshops to your Personal Reality or expand existing ones. Anything built in one of those workshops is fiat backed to be restored to its original condition within 48 hours if damaged or destroyed.
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Should be "robotics"

After reading the chap i can't help but wonder what Matrix /40k Laboratium interactions look like...
 
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TheQwertyOne said:
It grates on me every time I meet that statement. Author had already decided on that, but if Entity Powers were real magic, not Clarke-tech (which is different from magic in that it does not utilize mystical forces, it's just undistinguishable from it) then their race wouldn't have a problem with the heat death of the Greater Universe.
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...you can have mystical forces that run out. 'Magic fades from the world's is a really common trope. Hell, everything in The Lord of the Rings is supposed to take place in Earth's distant past.

And more generally, all 'powers are magic' means is that powers that affect powers can affect magic, and perks/technologies that work with magic can work with powers. It doesn't change how powers work, it just changes how they interact with things that aren't part of the Parahumans setting's metaphysics in the first place.

TheQwertyOne said:
Also, divine powers > magic, so Joe actually has a lot of options of trumping even that, because he had already turned into a Cyber-God and a Greek Demigod, but... ninja'd by the chapter itself, even if it ignored again how turning into a God of any description should not be just a cosmetic change, it should've directly uplifted many of his mystical powers to Godly levels making them Divine and thus better than magic.
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Dude, no it shouldn't. What being a 'god' even means varies from setting to setting. Hindu Cyborg Godbody provides cybernetics and an enhanced ability to channel Mantra, it doesn't affect other magical abilities Joe has. You have to look at what sorts of things the perk describes and what sort of things it allows in the original setting, not just whatever powers you happen to associate with godhood.
 
Vanta said:
Now that I've thought about it, each member of CF can give massive damage to the Slaughteredhouse None. Maybe except Survey, but she's important for her scans so that point is rendered mute.
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Again, Survey is an XCOM 2 psi operative. She could totally crush their mind or throw a void rift at them. She also have Mass Effect biotics.

Survey have more than enough firepower to kick the nine's collective butt.

(As a side note, I would love for Heartbreaker to try to capture beautiful Survey.)

ExploerTM said:
Man, the Matrix really, REALLY determined to become the definition of the Walking Apocalypse. I think there's no argument that out of entire CF only Tetra has any chance to compete with them in "Destroy the Earth speeding any%"
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...Fleet can just trigger a FTL drive and kaboom, no more Earth.

Ayashi said:
After reading the chap i can't help but wonder what Matrix /40k Laboratium interactions look like...
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Pretty sure Joe's AI are "honourable knights" or something, which is a cute way to say "they are Abominable Intelligence, but at least they are on our side. Also they have sick mechs".
 
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LordRoustabout said:
The Manhattan comparison was fairly apt. Despite the massive increase in size, the ground was still raw concrete, matching the composition of the walls. There was a featureless expanse of gray stone that extended for miles, then abruptly stopped as the space transitioned to the vibrant waterfronts on each side.
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Simple Scientific Solution would almost certainly accept engineering an ideal greenery cover/garden area for this space.

I recommend mosses and maiden hair, because grasses are unforgivably lame.
 
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