Paths of Civilization

Wiadi · Dec 4, 2017

BungieONI said:
[X] [Secondary] Intrigue Mission (Patrician)

Hey @BungieONI could you edit this to the majority phrasing "[Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)"? It actually has 24 votes right now but they're split two ways by the formatting differences. Most of the votes for your phrasing are name-voting you so I'm just asking you because from what I've gathered it would be rude to mass-@ everyone who's voting like that individually, even if it's just to correct a clerical issue. If not, though, let me know and I'll do it (or do it yourself I guess, that'd work too).

maximillian · Dec 4, 2017

Ancient Scholar · Dec 4, 2017

loserthree said:
FOOLS!

The author had said this demand is MEANT TO BE UNREASONABLE! You can't expect to work out a equitable solution by giving in to bullies! THAT'S HOW THEY GET YOU!

Stand up to your fears! Live your values! Prove the worth of your words!

If you give in every time things get tough, people who can make things tough for you will own you all your life!

Spread the message brother. Maybe some will decide to change votes.

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

maximillian said:

What is this thing? Ice?

maximillian · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
What is this thing? Ice?

Rock salt/ mineral salt /calcified salt.

2xMachina · Dec 4, 2017

@Academia Nut

How do we smack Divinely Glorious Elites back down?

Can we supress the unsuppressible until it breaks?

ThrawnCA · Dec 4, 2017

loserthree said:
The author had said this demand is MEANT TO BE UNREASONABLE!

The threat of a civil war is unreasonable, yes, and the amount of DL they want is something I would consider unreasonably high.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that the entire Distribute Land action is inherently and always unreasonable. Private property is a thing in most of the 21st century world.

If you give in every time things get tough, people who can make things tough for you will own you all your life!

On the flipside, if there is any question about whether a course of action is good or bad, it's worth listening to what other people have to say. Even if they are being unreasonable in the way they make their point, they might still have a point.

Arbit · Dec 4, 2017

tenchifew said:
Well, this happened.

Since I do not believe a civil war is in any way benefitical,

[x] veekie

The choice is not between civil war and no civil war. It is bewtween civil war now or civil war later, when the landholders are more entrenchend.

Susano · Dec 4, 2017

ThrawnCA said:
On the flipside, if there is any question about whether a course of action is good or bad, it's worth listening to what other people have to say. Even if they are being unreasonable in the way they make their point, they might still have a point.

That is true. But even if we leave points aside of whether this is just pure self-enrichment (we disagree there), the point remains that Ymaryn society shouldn't just surrender to threats of civil war.

2xMachina · Dec 4, 2017

[X]Susano
[X]Wiadi
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician x2
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician x3
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician x4
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician x5
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician x6
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician x7
[X]Suppress Faction - Patrician x8

Sure, our trait prevents suppress. But I am gonna hammer it anyway.

DragonParadox · Dec 4, 2017

2xMachina said:
@Academia Nut

How do we smack Divinely Glorious Elites back down?

Can we supress the unsuppressible until it breaks?

Suppressing the unsupportable does not even make sense. To degrade elitism our elites would have to fail. Vote for bad crises management: losing wars, suffering massive damage from plagues go against common sense and logic and for the unreasoning pursuit of glory until it mentally scars the collective consciousness of the Ymaryn.

2xMachina · Dec 4, 2017

Row Row Fight the Powah.
Break the unbreakable
Suppress the unsuppresable,

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

veekie said:
The Art Patronage is to take advantage of the Poet.

Hrm.
Not the worst idea, I admit.
However, it can also be used inside Guild Secondary slot, while Crown is Hunt x2, ensuring we catch 'em all (and by "them" I mean "asshole patricians who will try to abuse DL").

[X] [Merc] Yes
[X] [Agenda] Sea Control
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Sec] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Sec] Enforce Justice
[X] [Sec] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Sacred Forest
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Sec] Hunt Troublemakers x2
[X] [Guild Sec] Art Patronage

DragonParadox · Dec 4, 2017

Actually that's an idea... What if we spammed distribute land and at the same time intentionally caused a super-plague though overcrowding?

Actually no, that would just lead to the cities being blamed. All roads lead to feudalism.

Elbrasch · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
No, because it is actually patricians as a power block, not part of government. They are able to tell king to fuck off not as a separate branch of government, but as a faction: that is, as a power block united by shared class interests dictated by economic and/or cultural factors.
If it was separation of parliament and king, it would be one thing; but it is explicitly about most powerful faction, not "king cannot order around legislative branch".

Which, if I remember correctly, is exactly how the Magna Charta got to exist? Nobles telling the King that he is not all powerfull.
Also, seeing that we are an elective Monarchy, the Nobles can be constructed as our legislative branch

Wiadi · Dec 4, 2017

DragonParadox said:
Actually that's an idea... What if we spammed distribute land and at the same time intentionally caused a super-plague though overcrowding?

Actually no, that would just lead to the cities being blamed. All roads lead to feudalism.

Civil war doesn't, or at least has the chance not to. C'mon, give it a shot. What's the worst that could happen? If we collapse, well, you've started coming around to my view on that front from what I can tell. Sometimes the only way with corruption is to burn it out.

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

Elbrasch said:
Which, if I remember correctly, is exactly how the Magna Charta got to exist? Nobles telling the King that he is not all powerfull.
Also, seeing that we are an elective Monarchy, the Nobles can be constructed as our legislative branch

Not to the degree of "literally cannot do anything against the most powerful faction".
Like, 'cannot be suppressed' means they can decide they want to go to war with our neighbours and there is fuckall we can do.
Magna Carta installed bounds on power of king and formalized king-nobles relationship, but it did not go and say "if nobility wants X, it gets it, and there is literally no way to oppose them".

DragonParadox · Dec 4, 2017

Hell with it... we might as well get that social break done faster:

[X]Susano

DakkaMania · Dec 4, 2017

[X] BungieONI

It was bound to happen and I don't even really mind. We have tons of historical examples on how to manage and screw them over.

Like introducing Absolute Cognatic Gavelkind inheritance.

You got Land? Well, your children will divide it between them. You are suddenly much less of a headache. A generation later, less still.

Idealy we add a clause that if there are no children, the land returns to the Crown.

There are also faction shenanigans we can do. Like buffing all other factions so the Patricians are too busy fending off competitors to bother us.

DragonParadox · Dec 4, 2017

DakkaMania said:
Like introducing Absolute Cognatic Gavelkind inheritance.

You want to force the nobility to adopt a certain inheritance law...? They will fight that with swords if need be.

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

DakkaMania said:
[X] BungieONI

It was bound to happen and I don't even really mind. We have tons of historical examples on how to manage and screw them over.

Like introducing Absolute Cognatic Gavelkind inheritance.

You got Land? Well, your children will divide it between them. You are suddenly much less of a headache. A generation later, less still.

Idealy we add a clause that if there are no children, the land returns to the Crown.

There are also faction shenanigans we can do. Like buffing all other factions so the Patricians are too busy fending off competitors to bother us.

DakkaMania said:
Like introducing Absolute Cognatic Gavelkind inheritance.

DakkaMania said:
Absolute Cognatic Gavelkind

DakkaMania said:
Gavelkind

*painful CK2 flashbacks triggered*

Xantalos · Dec 4, 2017

*crawls out of the woodwork*

[X] Susano

I believe all I can really say about the vote has been said by this point. Only thing I can really add is the observation that this'll be just one of the many times pride has damaged us as a civ, ever since Ashryn committed the first wrong all those centuries ago. It's a problem we've struggled with since then, but we manage most of the time. Just seems to pop up every now and then.

Still, though. Our proto-nobility really need to remember that Ymar doesn't start fights, it ends them.

And with that, I bid the thread adieu again till the next update.

Manget · Dec 4, 2017

Wiadi said:
Civil war doesn't, or at least has the chance not to. C'mon, give it a shot. What's the worst that could happen? If we collapse, well, you've started coming around to my view on that front from what I can tell. Sometimes the only way with hypothetical corruption is to burn it out with real fire.

fix it for you

DakkaMania · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
*painful CK2 flashbacks triggered*

Exactly. As long as everything stays within the Realm, they can subdivide into irrelevance and thus Patricians comparable to Dukes won't arise.

DragonParadox · Dec 4, 2017

Manget said:
fix it for you

I think we have had pretty clear examples of patricians being corrupt and self-serving as a social class. Claiming corruption does not exist isa little silly.

Paths of Civilization

Uncompromising Radical Leftist

Civilised Sheep

Amateur Editor/Beta

Civilised Sheep

Carbon-based biped

Uncompromising Radical Leftist

Turtle-Speed Writing