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Paths of Civilization

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Citino said:
One thing we might have to do is work on boosting the Harmurri's power after this. If we aren't using the levies to break the HK, then we need to make sure we have a counterbalance in the form of the Har. Had the HK not been distracted in taking the Harmurrin land, we likely would have seen the HK trying to hit our core.

The HK will attack again in the future, and while increasing our defenses will certainly help, they are also almost certain to attack when we can least afford it. We need the Harmurri to be willing to counter the HK if they attack us in the future, so we can force any war the HK starts to be a 2 front war to them.
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We are creating march in the HK's lowland territory for that. Though getting Hamurri as a vassal would be pretty cool.
 
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty

[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills

Switching vote since levies are unlikely to win, and we need them or offensive policy.
 
Citino said:
I'm honestly not surprised. AN has been showing us that the HK is currently running on super-religion infused fanaticism, and have steamrolled pretty much everyone up to this point. That's not something you challenge lightly.
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I think our problem is that whenever we compare ourselves to anyone else, we take what we estimate their stats would be and figure out what strength they would have without any of the Ymaryn particularities (e.g. stuff like Levy Policy or our values). What we don't do is add the enemy's own particularities back in.

A lot of our enemies have Values which boost their military, and other circumstances that might do the same (see: Religious Fervor). I posit that we underestimate our enemies because we usually don't know about those things, and therefore fail to take them into account.
 
veekie said:
A fair point, but what about the purpose of the marriage?
The Storm Ymaryn have only two possible objectives for the marriage because they know our customs, a marriage alliance only lasts while the King does:
-They want to use our Genius for war despite already having a Martial Hero. Targets are Tin Tribes and Freehills.
-They believe they can get around the electoral system and make it dynastic.
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The purpose of the marriage is clear. The Storm Ymaryn are shitting themselves that we'd do exactly what they would with a martial genius and the greatest army the world has ever known. This isn't an aggressive move designed to subvert us or anything ridiculous like that. This is a defensive move because they're terrified that they're next on the list after the Highland Kingdom and they want to buy peace for our genius' lifetime, or at least peaceful annexation on favourable terms.

They're willing to take the risk that isn't involved that this will make it easier for us to influence them, because the consequences are that bad.

If we refuse, they'll probably assume that it's because we've decided on doing this the hard way, and so take measures to prepare to defend themselves.
 
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Susano said:
And we've already gotten the Mountain Horse...

At this point, it probably even make sense to move the capital to friggen Xohyr because it is more central!
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Turns out leaving the capital in Valleyhome was a good idea, huh? It's somewhat closer to the lowlands, and with the completion of the canal will make it far easier to administrate.

And to think we always assumed we could never really conquer the lowlands, and that the west and north would be the places we would expand.

And it all thanks to the Best King Ever, the Guy Who Nobody Thought We Would Be Crazy Enough To Elect, Phygrif! :V
 
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Candesce said:
It can be both.

Even if it's a purely defensive move now, it's not likely to stay that way once they've an alliance - the Storm Ymaryn nobility will see an opportunity and try to leverage it.
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This is paranoia, pure and simple. They don't have the tools to deliberately influence us with. We're the ones with the Games, an intrigue network, an organised religion, both a natural and artificial Wonder, a growing monopoly on the production of iron tools and weapons in volume, a genius martial leader, and the option to mass levy.

They have... nothing. They don't have an opportunity here. We do, as it gives us an opportunity to apply our absolutely crushing diplomatic, religious and cultural advantages. They, instead, are opening up a vulnerability to try to close down a risk that they don't realise doesn't even exist.

All they know is that the Ymaryn are prepared to fight mad anti-slavery wars, and so they're probably very afraid.

Susano said:
2) The guy is pretty obviously based on Alexander the Great, who was a "LGBT hero".
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Only if you anachronistically insist that such definitions of identities make sense in societies with very different constructions of sexuality.
 
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[X] [Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance

[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
 
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuchtribes to secure their loyalty
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
 
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuchtribes to secure their loyalty
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
 
Umi-san said:
Hephaestion - Wikipedia
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...There is copious information about the two of them. Short of the time they spent together as youths and the garland hung about his tomb as Alexander garlanded Achilles and Patroclus' tomb there is no real indication they were ever lovers and that's pretty thin evidence - in that period, the fact Patroclus was greatly beloved of Achilles as Hephaestion was greatly beloved of Alexander would be considered far more important than whether or not they were lovers. Alexander believed he was descended from Achilles and adored his legend, so it is not as if he had no other reason to make the link to himself and Achilles other than a romantic parallell.

Being bisexual wasn't even a big deal back in Alexanders' day, so the drive to paint him as homosexual is a bit strange given evidence against and his many, many relationships with women and in particular his first wife Roxana. The thing is, if he did like men, he had little reason to hide that. Much of the 'evidence' for his lack of interest in women comes from his few offspring in later life, a far likelier cause is that he acquired an STD that reduced his fertility.

It would not be at all unusual for him to be bisexual, mind, but short of an interest in a eunuch he showed very little carnal interest in men - less than most of his era.

Personal relationships of Alexander the Great - Wikipedia
 
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Alratan said:
This is paranoia, pure and simple. They don't have the tools to deliberately influence us with. We're the ones with the Games, an intrigue network, an organised religion, both a natural and artificial Wonder, a growing monopoly on the production of iron tools and weapons in volume, a genius martial leader, and the option to mass levy.

They have... nothing.
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Wow, I get that he might be being a bit paranoid, but don't you think you're kinda, no, really underestimating our neighbors? I mean, this sounds like what a stereotypical Chinese emperor talking to a European ambassador would say.

"We have invented paper, gunpowder, and many other things. We have an advanced bureaucracy that allows the government to run smoothly for centuries at a time. We have written THE book on war, and export so many luxuries to others that we have literally bankrupted empires.

What could you possibly have to offer the Middle Kingdom?"
 
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No sergeants, then?

Or will we have a chance at that after the war ends?

[X] [Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
 
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[X] OliWhail
I'm always down for mechanization.

It still really impresses me-if we had a king during normal time that was Excellent Admin, Excellent Diplo, Poor Martial, we would consider him a pretty great king. But here this guy is.
 
Susano said:
...you do realize what the B in LGBT stands for, yes?
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Yes. But as I pointed out, evidence suggests Alexander was NOT bisexual. And there is a crapload of evidence on Alexander. If you're gonna respect history, respect history. If people say 'our hero is an Alexander expy and Alexander was pining for his boyfriend Hephaestion and never wanted a wife'' when evidence suggests that's absurd I'll say something.
 
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Citino said:
Wow, I get that he might be being a bit paranoid, but don't you think you're kinda, no, really underestimating our neighbors? I mean, this sounds like what a sterotypical Chinese emperor talking to european ambassador would say.
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And the Chinese Emperor wouldn't have the knowledge that the Ymaryn do about a neighbour that's an offshoot of them. Bring arrogant about how you compare to total strangers is different to being able to reasonably measure the threat level of people you have a very close relationship with.
 
BungieONI said:
Well, I'm not AN(obviously :V ) but I imagine that their fanaticism may be acting like a (potentially)cheaper offensive form of kicking. That would help them do all this, and would explain his comments about them running hot and overdrawing. Further from that, the Harmurri might have been weak militarily since they were expecting us to protect them, and the khem colonies they took were mostly empty I would imagine.

Additionally, we don't know what military innovations they have had but we simply haven't noticed considering their isolation and intrigue skills.
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Not necessarily more cheaply:

Academia Nut said:
They are currently running high on religious fanaticism and looted Khem colony resources. Their objective is to seize as much of the lowlands as possible and convert their population to fanatics and the region into a fortified hardpoint. The Harmurri haven't been particularly into developing their military power too much, and the HK are running hotter than is sustainable.
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They're approximately going Red Religious Authority, switched one of their religious values to Crusade(or the like), and then using that bonus Martial to wage Holy War, which gives them RA on succcess, which they go wage more war with.

This is something most similar to our Mass Levy, effective, but brittle.
Citino said:
One thing we might have to do is work on boosting the Harmurri's power after this. If we aren't using the levies to break the HK, then we need to make sure we have a counterbalance in the form of the Har. Had the HK not been distracted in taking the Harmurrin land, we likely would have seen the HK trying to hit our core.

The HK will attack again in the future, and while increasing our defenses will certainly help, they are also almost certain to attack when we can least afford it. We need the Harmurri to be willing to counter the HK if they attack us in the future, so we can force any war the HK starts to be a 2 front war to them.
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Note that the Harmurri is actually at the ideal power level there. Too weak to think of Lowland Adventurism to our detriment, just strong enough to act as a mine canary for anything coming from the south side. Practically a March.

Alratan said:
The purpose of the marriage is clear. The Storm Ymaryn are shitting themselves that we'd do exactly what they would with a martial genius and the greatest army the world has ever known. This isn't an aggressive move designed to subvert us or anything ridiculous like that. This is a defensive move because they're terrified that they're next on the list after the Highland Kingdom and they want to buy peace for our genius' lifetime, or at least peaceful annexation on favourable terms.

They're willing to take the risk that isn't involved that this will make it easier for us to influence them, because the consequences are that bad.

If we refuse, they'll probably assume that it's because we've decided on doing this the hard way, and so take measures to prepare to defend themselves.
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This is paranoia, pure and simple. They are in the mountains, across the sea, in a scenario where we barely have the sealift to contest them if they came for Greenshore, and unable to leverage our numerical advantages in a war, unable to use our cavalry in the mountains and at the longest extreme of our logistics with three targets near them none on defensive terrain..
They were Ymaryn themselves. They know this.

The only measure they'd need is to not invade someone else until our Genius dies. If you think the HK was hard to invade, try invading someone in their situation except at five times the distance away.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Yeah, I'm pretty surprised about how pessimistic it looks. I thought our light calv alone would be enough to sweep them out of the lowlands based one the wrecking we got from the pure.
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Well the highlanders have spent the last 2 turns fortifying the region and are known to be strong/skilled in the defensive. And while cavalry is great when it comes to raiding/open field conflicts it is of considerable less use in sieges so while I have little doubt that we could devastate the countryside actually taking the key fortresses/cities and holding the ground is probably the real challenge. This is an age where well fortified cities/fortresses could take years (and significant forces) to siege successfully which is why a lot of military campaigns in this era (and indeed most of history) are more about plundering the country than sieges.

Also the Pure had the massive advantage that the plague was going on which drastically weakened its opposition (and was especially deadly in non-people cities) while we don't have this advantage and are indeed more suffering from the fact that our army seems to suffer illnesses and the like (which again is typical and something that is generally much worse in a siege, even or perhaps especially for the attacker).
 
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