Bowing to reason since the largest Dam is mostly dick waving. Grumble grumble.
Going for sane dam. It's an engineering project that's expensive enough without blatant dick measuring.
The thing is, that dickwaving is actually pretty useful. Especially considering it isn't just dickwaving. Prestige is nice. Not particularly useful at the moment as we are already over 100, but... More importantly is that the wonders have vastly improved benefits over megaprojects. Simply put, a larger water volume means that much more area for mills and chinampas, and that much more water saved for droughts. Furthermore, it automatically excludes others in our immediate area from getting it.

We can afford the costs. It will be tight, but it can be done. More importantly, it will almost certainly be worth it.
 
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For another major market type project you're going to probably need at least one level 3+ market and 3+ level 2 markets.
Alright thanks! That requires a related but distinct set of problems unlocking to achieve, then. Compared to the single level 5 effective level alternative for producing financial innovations, anyway.
 
Feel free to debate that with @veekie and @bluefur87 because you've restated my original position that they strenuously object to.
Sigh, yeah, let me field the question directed to me.
@George If you want to reduce the wealth cost of mechanical equipment, you need to build more of it. Ditto for actually reducing tech cost.

And that's our biggest problem. To get there, we need to eat a lot of costs before it becomes easier.
Yes, he was basically asking if you could talk to me and veekie about it.
  • Increased transportation because we don't have the horses to move crap and like fuck people want to manually haul stuff.
  • More effective milling to deal with the increase demands and the lack of past infrastructure.
  • Windmills because not everyone of these can be near a watermill.
  • More effective tools for when manually hauling and transporting equipment is needed.
The entire process is labor intensive and people will look for ways of making it less so if we expand on it enough without using half exiles.

Mills would likely get us faster innovations, but they're going to be too expensive for us to do in the near future. Meanwhile these still have a good chance of developing innovations by making people simply not want to deal with this shit, literally. If not generating innovations themselves then they will direct passive innovation rolls this direction and about the only major thing here is labor saving devices.

Or gunpowder I suppose.
Level 5 (level 4 for you now, requires a level 3 city to get) markets may begin generating financial innovation rolls. Or at least allow for actions to make such rolls reliably. In a level 3 city that would be 48 Wealth and 24 culture, currently.
You tease.
 
Level 5 (level 4 for you now, requires a level 3 city to get) markets may begin generating financial innovation rolls. Or at least allow for actions to make such rolls reliably. In a level 3 city that would be 48 Wealth and 24 culture, currently.

That's honestly pretty doable. Redshore can get boosted up to a Level 3 City fairly easily, and we should have 3 level 2 cities coming online when we complete the canal. Potentially more.
 
So, what is the mechanical process that would improve our black soil efficiency? And what is actually the process of black soil production?

This way, we will have some idea of what innovations we need to make.

For another major market type project you're going to probably need at least one level 3+ market and 3+ level 2 markets.

On the subject of a major new projects:

The thread had came up with two megaproject ideas.

One idea is the "World Garden", basically a diplomacy megaproject to gather the unique plants of the world and plant it in Sacred Forest. Reward is better intrigue mission success against settled trade partners and better access to the world's major trade route(salt road, med access, etc), and agricultural innovations.

Another is an upgrade to Grand Dock into Grand Harbor with the invention of concrete. Gives us access to medieval shipbuilding tech and roll, makes docks obsolete replaced by harbors extended projects. Cost would be 5 forests, and harbors will probably cost us a forest as well.

Come to think of it, we could use concrete to open up more saltern locations. Hmm...
 
Level 5 (level 4 for you now, requires a level 3 city to get) markets may begin generating financial innovation rolls. Or at least allow for actions to make such rolls reliably. In a level 3 city that would be 48 Wealth and 24 culture, currently.
Whelp, no chance of this happening unless a faction quest asks for it in a few turns and our policies get it done. Hint hint nudge nudge, Urban Poor.
 
Okay, thread is still open....and is there anything to be salty about? We have a choice between which problem to address, after all: Purity of half-exiles.

The thing which makes me salty (and exceedingly guilty by the way) is this:
Like the Highlanders, who had responded to the inquiries as to what they were doing as 'Taking the lowlands'. While they hadn't made any direct threats to the People yet, it was pretty obvious that they were going to attack the Harmurri once they finished off the minor tribes, and then the People would have to either intervene or let the Harmurri fight it out. If the Highlanders won then they would probably turn their eyes towards the People, and if the Harmurri won they would undoubtedly be pissed at being abandoned by people they thought had their backs. Either way, inaction was ill-advised, so war was probably inevitable. Whether waiting was advisable was... questionable... but it was the decision that had been made.

We fucked up. I was pretty loud proponent of TM instead of wardeccing them, so I fucked up here. My bad.
It seems Highlanders Delenda Est. Rejoice, warmongers, your time has come.

Still stunningly affordable.
It means Warships cost 10 wealth, that Dam would cost...your option 2 Wealth, biggest option 4 Wealth. Crippling.

Okay, Dam is once-for-all-times project, so we don't have a choice to not build it as big as possible. Means MP Support is not an option though: we lack Wealth for 3 actions per turn anyway.
Now, do we address half-exiles (thus making things way harder for us) or do we purge Purity and work with more useful and less likely to backfire Spiritual trait?

[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)

Okay, folks, now hear me out. Historically, the biggest way to reduce cheap unskilled labour demand was mechanization and making skilled workers more useful.
That is all. No, seriously, we will be able to address half-exile issue approximately ~50 turns later, once skilled labour is actually more profitable than unskilled one and we are naturally reducing need for it. Then it will be the right time.
I mean, we can just mash the Mills button and Academy button if we want to ensure that we are losing slavery.

[X] [PP] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)

INFORMDENESS TRIFECTA!
Also, another Infra.


Okay, with news about Highlanders being utter idiots in mind, and those of Dam being expensive as all hell, here is my plan for the next turn:

[Main] Great Dam (-2 Econ, -2 Wealth, -2 Tech oh my now it's Wonder)
[Secondary] Temple - Horse Valley
[Secondary] Invite Forchuh
[Secondary] Change Policy - Mass Levy
[Secondary] War Mission - Highlands Kingdom
[Secondary] Great Hall Annex
[Secondary] March - Spirits Channel/Diplomatic Mission - Harmurri( to ruffle feathers)

[Guild Main] More Warships
[Guild Main] Plant Crops - Luxuries(?)
[Guild Secondary] Build Docks
 
So, what is the mechanical process that would improve our black soil efficiency? And what is actually the process of black soil production?

This way, we will have some idea of what innovations we need to make.
I sort of already answered that to a small extent.
  • Early rails for easy transport around the facility.
  • Early cranes for easy removal of black soil.
  • Improved earth moving tools in terms of design.
  • Improved sanitation as these double as waste dumps (not an innovation, but a point in their favor that is occurring to me as I make this list)
  • Refining mill technology
  • Possible windmills if enough are put in locations without running water for water mills.
Of course, Mills would stand a good chance of making any of this much faster, but holy shit the wealth cost.

As for what we need to make this possible, Ironworking for more iron tools. We'll want ironworks (handled by passive policy) and iron mines, so a few surveys which we'll want to do for gold minds anyways. Both Ironworks and Ironminds would also have decent chances of advancing mechanization.

Once we can afford to, getting mills will be a good next step.
 
[Main] Great Dam (-2 Econ, -2 Wealth, -2 Tech oh my now it's Wonder)
[Secondary] Temple - Horse Valley
[Secondary] Invite Forchuh
[Secondary] Change Policy - Mass Levy
[Secondary] War Mission - Highlands Kingdom
[Secondary] Great Hall Annex
[Secondary] March - Spirits Channel/Diplomatic Mission - Harmurri( to ruffle feathers)

[Guild Main] More Warships
[Guild Main] Plant Crops - Luxuries(?)
[Guild Secondary] Build Docks

We hit -9 (temporary) Wealth from this plan. It's not a possible option since the Guilds would explode; we cannot possibly do Warships at all next turn if we want to remain above (temporary) Wealth 0.
 
We hit -9 (temporary) Wealth from this plan. It's not a possible option since the Guilds would explode; we cannot possibly do Warships at all next turn if we want to remain above (temporary) Wealth 0.

I am working from assumption we don't take half-exile reform, see my vote above that.

If we do take it, we are paralyzed and are failing Trader quest and Dam costs 4 wealth/turn and I have a lot of doubt people who vote for half-exile reform tried composing a functional plan for any turn with the doubled Wealth in mind before voting for it.
 
So, what is the mechanical process that would improve our black soil efficiency? And what is actually the process of black soil production?

This way, we will have some idea of what innovations we need to make.

Fundamentally black soil is made by combining together a bulk granular material like nutrient depleted soil, porous solids like broken pottery sherds, ground up carbon char, and organic waste. The pottery and char help retain moisture and provide a stable growing environment for essential micororganisms to flourish, with the waste acting as both food for the microorganisms to break down and turn into fertilizer and a binder for the whole mass.

Improvements thus come from improving the movement of liquid and solid waste and garbage, the grinding of the large materials, and the production of charcoal.

One idea is the "World Garden", basically a diplomacy megaproject to gather the unique plants of the world and plant it in Sacred Forest. Reward is better intrigue mission success against settled trade partners and better access to the world's major trade route(salt road, med access, etc), and agricultural innovations.

Not really something achievable.

Another is an upgrade to Grand Dock into Grand Harbor with the invention of concrete. Gives us access to medieval shipbuilding tech and roll, makes docks obsolete replaced by harbors extended projects. Cost would be 5 forests, and harbors will probably cost us a forest as well.

This however is achievable.

So with all this talk of Cities
What is our Urban Population at if we know?
What about our Total Population? :p

Total urban population is somewhere between 900k and 1 million people, with total population for all territories being between 8 and 11 million.
 
Essentially, this early shift away from slave-like labor, when combined with our level of development and our values, produces a fundamentally different paradigm to both the quest history and to RL history.
Didn't we have this discussion like 4k pages ago? And again like 3k pages ago? And again like 2k pages ago?

Because they likely have three to five times our Intrigue score. They damn well can take ours shit without paying any kind of price.
Uhhhh r u sure. They totally failed their "suppress the monotheists"/Hunt Troublemakers challenge.

Level 5 (level 4 for you now, requires a level 3 city to get) markets may begin generating financial innovation rolls. Or at least allow for actions to make such rolls reliably. In a level 3 city that would be 48 Wealth and 24 culture, currently.
New post-Lowland Canal-kun long-term goal: Bank-kun.
 
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[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2Diplo)
 
Trader quest is still an option with Support Faction. Just sayin'.

Try composing a plan with Support Faction traders while still accomplishing all our other goals: March, war on Highlanders (we have to at this point), Dam, finish that last Annex, do the Priests' quest.
Oh, and restoring Stability if possible too, lol.

Total urban population is somewhere between 900k and 1 million people, with total population for all territories being between 8 and 11 million.

Hookay. This is better than expected, with worst-case urbanization being ~12.5% or so. Roman level, I think.
Core is probably more urbanized though, but ehhh.
 
Try composing a plan with Support Faction traders while still accomplishing all our other goals: March, war on Highlanders (we have to at this point), Dam, finish that last Annex, do the Priests' quest.
Oh, and restoring Stability if possible too, lol.
March is super not happening in the event of a Highlands war, and I think we're banking on passives finishing the priest quest at this point.

In a way, doubling the cost of wealth actions actually makes deciding the next turn's actions simpler... in that we straight up can't afford many things. :lol
 
The dice are fickle. But they send one or two missions are turn, they get off with generations' worth of luck and effort on our part.
yeah, if they have the intrigue to waste doing so then they will inevitably get our concrete eventually
regardless of what our intrigue is

mostly I just don't want to burn income now that wealth costs r going up and war is on the horizon
higher diplo = more love
 
yeah, if they have the intrigue to waste doing so then they will inevitably get our concrete eventually
regardless of what our intrigue is

mostly I just don't want to burn income now that wealth costs r going up and war is on the horizon
higher diplo = more love
It's not about the concrete. It's about them stealing out shit and getting away with it.

Because we won't invest a single damn policy. Not to mention how tremendously useful it is for internal matters.
 
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