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Paths of Civilization

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@Academia Nut were there more hidden modifiers than those shown in the update to our stats? Because i'm starting to do the math and culture and econ arent coming out right...

Culture: 27 - 6 (Reconcile Culture) - 3 (Proclaim Glory) - 3 (Influence subordinate) = 15 + [1+] (Salt Gift) -> 16+, not 12.
Econ: 24 - 2 (Reconcile) -1 (Proclaim Glory) - 3 (Influence Subordinate) - 3 (Plant Poppies) = 15, not 14
EE: 21 - 3 (Plant Poppies) + 1 (PG Refund) + 3 (IS Refund*) + 2 (PP Refund*) = 24

*Where IS refunds fully since its a transfer, but plant poppies only refunds 2 because of our small number of cities right now

Additionally, to clarify, will you be updating the action list before the next update, or is it staying unupdated until the next main turn since it's a more in depth overhaul? If the former i'll wait to do my A&D post until you do so, but if not i'll do it when i get home tonight.

(Also, i agree with whoever it was that asked about our poppies trade power not changing after we took a main and 2 secondaries being weird o_O Especially since it would mean another point of wealth income this turn :p)
 
Sivantic said:
Like, in the plan I had put forth we would gain 18 Econ on top of the taxes gained from our Colonies. That, combined with the loss Economic Expansion slots because of the poppies means that we are easily drop down to 10 Expansion slots, opening up three of our old cities and the passive policies they have.
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We have 15 or 18 progress required to finish our quests within the next 2 turns. (12 on the quests, 3 for finishing Redshore's baths 2, unknown if Valleyguard will insist on a baths immediately or not). If we switch 2 Infrastructures now we get 4 extra progress this turn and 4 more next turn. That's still only 10/15 (We currently have 1 progress/turn). If we don't want to have to pay, we'd need an extra ~2 policies on Infrastructure next turn(depends on what the Free Cities do).

If we don't switch now, it's impossible to get enough progress to finish them for free and we'd have to pay to finish them. Extended projects are expensive.

Yes, we could spend the actions and stats on solving the problems. On the other hand, we could instead swap them over now and spend those actions on Forests without costing us any stats.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Fair, although to note: Storm People have 99% of Ymaryn tech - notably, they have siegecraft. But you were right, because...
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Some of the tech which required our socioeconomic system to be truly useful, like light crossbow required an armies of artisans to mass-produce in sufficient quantity.

Definitely don't want to underestimate them like we did with the Trelli.
 
[X][Main]Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Plant Cotton
[X][Secondary] Expand Vineyard
[X][Secondary] Black Soil
[X][Secondary] Black Soil x2

[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks x2
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
Does anybody know how to account for our seven diplomatic income?

Two diplomacy were income from our mercs patrolling the hills of the HK. Another three came from the Games. One came from our diplomacy before it got turned off.

I have no idea how to account for the last one.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex: Great Hall Expansion
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
Need to finally get started on the Dam and Lowlands Canal

[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
Want to keep the silk flowing, and encourage the Nomads to stay in the silk road instead of going out and raiding.

[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
Tinriver is the farthest away, and probably the most likely to think they can cut their losses and bail.

[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
Need more econ, as usual

[X][Secondary] Palace Annex: Great Hall Expansion
Get started on the Gov Reform

[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
People have been saying they will put expand forest on a repeat action, so I will hold them to their word.

[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
Get more money, and also finally get more snails after thousands of years.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x3
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x4
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
ctulhuslp said:
It's because Repeated Expand Forests are just better than Forestry policy unless AN updates passive policy to be, like, 1 forest per turn per policy.
And we have a lot of backlog.
Although I would be immensely happy if Infra stopped being Urbanization: The Policy and was split into, like, Urbanization, Education (Library, Academy, Temple?) and Provincial (Palaces, Salterns) policies. Because thoe silly Infras do everything they can to make as much True Cities as possible, it seems, and it's really annoying to deal with.

Plus then those two slots freed can be used on Trade and Patronage. End would be, like... Infra x2, Vassal Support x2, Defensive, Patronage, Diplomacy, Skullduggery, Trade or the like
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I am sure they will...once they are implemented. As is, AN seems to be waiting for the four Annexes first.

Yes there are a whole lot of infrastructure projects we want done that are not getting done because of the reasons you stated, which for me is a point against switiching them out, especially as we would get two more policies by midturn anyway.

As nice as is it to put those policies on that, I really do not see it as necessary as ensuring a constant buffer between forest use and growth.
notgreat said:
We have 15 or 18 progress required to finish our quests within the next 2 turns. (12 on the quests, 3 for finishing Redshore's baths 2, unknown if Valleyguard will insist on a baths immediately or not). If we switch 2 Infrastructures now we get 4 extra progress this turn and 4 more next turn. That's still only 10/15 (We currently have 1 progress/turn). If we don't want to have to pay, we'd need an extra ~2 policies on Infrastructure next turn(depends on what the Free Cities do).

If we don't switch now, it's impossible to get enough progress to finish them for free and we'd have to pay to finish them. Extended projects are expensive.

Yes, we could spend the actions and stats on solving the problems. On the other hand, we could instead swap them over now and spend those actions on Forests without costing us any stats.
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If we actually have been putting forest projects forward I would not mind. So far I have seen nobody actually succeed in doing so. Thus, I find Forest much more valuable because of the sheer difficulty in actually doing them manually.

We need our main actions available to deal with every problem that comes up more than we need to use them on maintenance projects such as forests.



Both of you miss the point that we will not even get those policies unless you listen to my plan anyway so trying to claim them for your own benefit is a little hilarious.

As is we are not getting those policies.
 
Sivantic said:
If we actually have been putting forest projects forward I would not mind. So far I have seen nobody actually succeed in doing so. Thus, I find Forest much more valuable because of the sheer difficulty in actually doing them manually.

We need our main actions available to deal with every problem that comes up more than we need to use them on maintenance projects such as forests.



Both of you miss the point that we will not even get those policies unless you listen to my plan anyway so trying to claim them for your own benefit is a little hilarious.

As is we are not getting those policies.
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We've consistently stayed ahead of our forest usage. Right now we're massively far ahead, with 5 free forests (going to 4 or 3 from the upcoming baths). We have nothing else other than that planned in the moderate future. We do have a lot of infrastructure progress we need to complete in the near future, and the Marketplace at least is virtually non-negotiable (FREE MEGAPROJECT). That means the actions are stuck either way unless we want to skip out on a FREE MEGAPROJECT. As such they might as well be Forest actions and Infrastructure Passives considering just how much better that setup is.

As for gaining the cities... I'm voting for Poppies x2 + {S} Cotton. It drops our LTE way down and then I have an {S} Expand econ, so my plan also turns on multiple cities, as well as ensuring we get +1 Stability. It's not gonna win, but eh, people have already voted so oh well.
 
notgreat said:
We've consistently stayed ahead of our forest usage. Right now we're massively far ahead, with 5 free forests (going to 4 or 3 from the upcoming baths). We have nothing else other than that planned in the moderate future. We do have a lot of infrastructure progress we need to complete in the near future, and the Marketplace at least is virtually non-negotiable (FREE MEGAPROJECT). That means the actions are stuck either way unless we want to skip out on a FREE MEGAPROJECT. As such they might as well be Forest actions and Infrastructure Passives considering just how much better that setup is.

As for gaining the cities... I'm voting for Poppies x2 + {S} Cotton. It drops our LTE way down and then I have an {S} Expand econ, so my plan also turns on multiple cities, as well as ensuring we get +1 Stability. It's not gonna win, but eh, people have already voted so oh well.
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Just FYI, as per AN clarification poppies massively up demand for cheap unskilled labour, which pushes society towards needing/accepting slavery.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Just FYI, as per AN clarification poppies massively up demand for cheap unskilled labour, which pushes society towards needing/accepting slavery.
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It does increase demand for cheap labor, yes.
It does not push society into accepting slavery. Particularly not with such a high RA value.

Also, all agriculture increased demand for cheap labor. That's just an unavoidable fact of life. So long as we keep our religious institutions strong and ensure we don't take any slavery options, we'll do fine.
 
[X] [Main] Grand Hall Annex
[X] [Secondary] Expand Econ
[X] [Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
notgreat said:
It does increase demand for cheap labor, yes.
It does not push society into accepting slavery. Particularly not with such a high RA value.

Also, all agriculture increased demand for cheap labor. That's just an unavoidable fact of life. So long as we keep our religious institutions strong and ensure we don't take any slavery options, we'll do fine.
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Thing is, we already have a half-exile system that we would probably call slavery by modern standards, and its use will increase if we take 5 Secondaries worth of especially labor intensive guild options.
 
George said:
Thing is, we already have a half-exile system that we would probably call slavery by modern standards, and its use will increase if we take 5 Secondaries worth of especially labor intensive guild options.
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And there has been a noticeable group of voters who want to take a couple Black Soils to force the half-exile system to the spotlight and give us a reformation option. While I'm not a huge fan of that idea, it's very much something that I'm not adverse to triggering while we're at 3 or 4 Stability and no immediate major crises.
 
notgreat said:
And there has been a noticeable group of voters who want to take a couple Black Soils to force the half-exile system to the spotlight and give us a reformation option. While I'm not a huge fan of that idea, it's very much something that I'm not adverse to triggering while we're at 3 or 4 Stability and no immediate major crises.
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I want Black Soil to test out the Terraform action, but the problem is that there are like a thousand things demanding the use of sustainable forest.
 
Kiba said:
I want Black Soil to test out the Terraform action, but the problem is that there are like a thousand things demanding the use of sustainable forest.
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There are 5, of which 3 we don't have any current need of.
1) {M} Black Soil. Not currently needed
2) Glassworks. Not currently needed
3) {M} Porcelain Works. Somewhat useful here, but just using the {S} is probably better
4) Baths. 2 more in high demand, a few more afterwards plausible
5) Ironworks. We have no mechanical use for this, though there is some plausible narrative use.

And that's it. We've got a ton of current forests, lots of kilns space still available, and while more would always be nice, it's worth a lot less than the alternatives.
 
Hmmm. IIrC, MH used to produce the second most iron. Now they're gone, and who knows how much the new groups will focus on iron production. So who produces second most now? I'm 99% Most and Highest Quality goes to us, but the trading page is not that helpful for this. My guess would be Storm Tribes, but it could be Khem.
 
ExNihilo said:
Hmmm. IIrC, MH used to produce the second most iron. Now they're gone, and who knows how much the new groups will focus on iron production. So who produces second most now? I'm 99% Most and Highest Quality goes to us, but the trading page is not that helpful for this. My guess would be Storm Tribes, but it could be Khem.
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Having absorbed both the Metal Workers and the Western Ymaryn, the Storm People are very likely to have high quantity and quality of iron production.
 
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