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Paths of Civilization

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pbluekan said:
No... the Txolla have the lowlands all the way to Xohyr. They are the lowlands, fertile and not.
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Partially so. Another part is Thunder Horse.

VoidZero said:
I guess hunt trouble and road can wait until the turn after next. DL and EJ early + double great hall would be good.
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Did maximillian bite you or something?
Next turn....maybe. My current ideas for next turn don't have much actions left due to action economy and stats, but I think there should be one badly used which can be slotted with Hunt. No promises though.
Road is more expensive, so it's going to be even harder. We need Raise Army+Influence+Dam+Annex+Warships, that leaves not a lot for other things.
 
Maybe we should put one of the Guild Mains into doing More Warships? We've been told the seas are going to be heavily contested soon. Building more ships will give us safety and encourage further loyalty from the western colonies.
 
So I guess Uvothyn is dying soon. Oh well.

You could easily condense the different Integrate and Found Subordinate actions, as they'd often require a subvote anyway. Maybe combine Build Watchtower and Build Walls into a single Build Defenses action. I'm not sure about how well combining Study actions would work. Build Theater could definitely get folded under Art Patronage. Agreed that condensing and reorganizing the different trade good actions is a real good call. Chariots probably aren't obsolete yet, but maybe could mix with More Spiritbonded as a More Cavalry action. idk.

Also, a RA decreasing action would be just great. I imagine Suppressing the Priest faction would do it as a hidden effect, but ever since the gods smote the Thunder Horse we've been bumping against the limit.

Typowise: Academy is still listed in Megaprojects, and the Main for Launch Intrigue mission has an S rather than an M.
 
Andres110 said:
Maybe we should put one of the Guild Mains into doing More Warships? We've been told the seas are going to be heavily contested soon. Building more ships will give us safety and encourage further loyalty from the western colonies.
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Next turn plans include it.
That's why we are going with most Wealth-producing actions in guild section (even though I would prefer more snails for fluff reasons): to fund Warships+army next turn.
We cannot afford it right now, sadly.
 
maximillian said:
@bluefur87, remember when you said if I don't vote war seven turns ago, you'll vote my way for once?

Well, am cashing that in for this one.
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Wait, what?
I can't remember that...
*Spends about twenty minutes searching.*
I can't find that...
And I can't think of an instance where I would have been desperate to make a deal to stop a war. Or at least, it would have been Phygrath what's his name, and that would have been me having to encourage you to vote for the little girl, which everyone was avoiding because of hereditary rulership, and I don't think I'd have to make you a deal to get you to vote for that.

I'm reasonably certain that you are getting me confused with someone. Could you at least point me to the timeframe I said this? I haven't exactly been very attentive for the last seven turns and it isn't my style to make a vote deal that carelessly, though I won't put it past me to have done so.
ctulhuslp said:
I cannot afford more econ expenses in guild actions because I am not willing to touch Econ 0, just in case almost-famine is bad too. However, not changing sum total of Econ expenditure is fine enough.
(Edit: Also, Terraform GA action costs -15 EE for foresting entire lower steppe; I want to have >=15 EE come Golden Age, so LTE spending is a bit worrying for me too).

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex: Great Hall Expansion
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies x2
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation

Expenses:
Econ: -2 (Dam) -2 (Influence) -2 (Grand Hall x1) -6 (Poppies) -1 (Snails) = -13.
Wealth: -2 (Trade Mission) -2 (Influence) = -4.
Income:
Econ: +6(Expand Econ)+12 (Balanced Main Expand Econ) = +18
Wealth: +14 (Poppy) + 1 (Snails) = 15.

Net: +5 Econ, + 14 Wealth, no negatives in either. Result: 19 Econ, 15 Wealth.

It's not 20, but sorry, I am unwilling to touch Econ 0 for Stability 4. Just in case Econ 0 also triggers something bad.
The only thing worrying me here is that we can accidentaly opioid dependency epidemic with cheaper and cheaper access to poppies. So I may change it back.
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Bigger problem is that there monofocusing on any single trade good is dangerous.

If anything happens to make the cost of poppy go down or put our poppy crops in danger, then we're out a lot of trade goods, and that isn't exactly great. Taking bigger actions in expand snail cultivation also has the possibility to see more innovations as that involves constructing things in the water, giving us the possibility for discovering types of construction advances (it's where we got towers), where as poppies just include growing them. At best we could hope for different varieties.

Our snail dye is also a much rarer good in general, so there is better regional security, encouraging Ymaryn culture and pride. We also can get poppies or Cotton in PSN triggering (assuming we have enough Econ during the mid turn to not be forced to take Expand Economy or be put right back to 14ish econ at the beginning of next turn that is...), and the line of thought of 'well, it can wait one more turn before we take of this problem, right now let's just focus on stats,' is the sort of thing that leads to problems never getting solved.

Like, don't get me wrong, we have to spend some time thinking about stats so we don't hurt the Ymaryn nation, but we shouldn't be so obsessed over them that we ignore things we know are good in narrative.
 
Academia Nut said:
It's more that they represent a similar enough mechanical end result that dividing them into separate categories at the kingdom level doesn't gain enough benefit to make them different actions.
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Will they also gain the Ironworks bonus? All of those cash crops benefit from the same things as our normal Agriculture. So either they take up less Econ in exchange for tech as less manpower is needed for the same work or the same manpower achieves greater results.
 
bluefur87 said:
Bigger problem is that there monofocusing on any single trade good is dangerous.

If anything happens to make the cost of poppy go down or put our poppy crops in danger, then we're out a lot of trade goods, and that isn't exactly great. Taking bigger actions in expand snail cultivation also has the possibility to see more innovations as that involves constructing things in the water, giving us the possibility for discovering types of construction advances (it's where we got towers), where as poppies just include growing them. At best we could hope for different varieties.

Our snail dye is also a much rarer good in general, so there is better regional security, encouraging Ymaryn culture and pride. We also can get poppies or Cotton in PSN triggering (assuming we have enough Econ during the mid turn to not be forced to take Expand Economy or be put right back to 14ish econ at the beginning of next turn that is...), and the line of thought of 'well, it can wait one more turn before we take of this problem, right now let's just focus on stats,' is the sort of thing that leads to problems never getting solved.

Like, don't get me wrong, we have to spend some time thinking about stats so we don't hurt the Ymaryn nation, but we shouldn't be so obsessed over them that we ignore things we know are good in narrative.
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While it is all true, that's explicitly my short-term action in order to fund shipbuilding and army next-turn. I am not doing it for trade good, I am doing it for quick cash. They seem good enough at this role as far as I can see. And a lack of army and navy is a major problem that must be solved.

Unless there are some narrative negative consequences from doing it this way?

And I'd rather Main PSN Expand Econ to freely spend it on whatever next turn. Or Main PSN Expand Forests because you cannot have too many of those, especially once we hit our stride in large-scale shipbuilding and docks/warships inevitably start costing forest slots.
 
Andres110 said:
Doing a quick cash project that relies on a lot of unskilled labour slides us closer to slavery. We won't reach slavery, I don't think, but simply sliding closer to it will have negative consequences for our society.
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That's kinda a stretch.

Needing money quick and thus planting cash crops does not equal slavery.
I could see the comparisons if we made our Half Exiles constantly plant cash crops, but using them to quickly make money that is necessary for other projects has nothing to do with slavery.
 
Andres110 said:
Doing a quick cash project that relies on a lot of unskilled labour slides us closer to slavery. We won't reach slavery, I don't think, but simply sliding closer to it will have negative consequences for our society.
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A good point.
@Academia Nut , how much unskilled labour does planting cash crops, and specifically poppies, require? Does it make guilds wish for more, ah, "refugees"?
 
ctulhuslp said:
While it is all true, that's explicitly my short-term action in order to fund shipbuilding and army next-turn. I am not doing it for trade good, I am doing it for quick cash. They seem good enough at this role as far as I can see. And a lack of army and navy is a major problem that must be solved.

Unless there are some narrative negative consequences from doing it this way?

And I'd rather Main PSN Expand Econ to freely spend it on whatever next turn. Or Main PSN Expand Forests because you cannot have too many of those, especially once we hit our stride in large-scale shipbuilding and docks/warships inevitably start costing forest slots.
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Unlikely to be immediate negative consequences for poppies. I don't think they strain the soil enough to push the black soil production. We're hopefully smart enough to keep reserves of crops at our temples to make sure no one variety dies out or, failing that, that we have back up varieties of various plants.

I just think putting off developing cultural goods for the short term wealth bonus with a promise of 'we'll totally do it later' is the sort of reasoning that stops those sorts of projects from ever going through in the first place. Unless we are in the middle of a crises or can not afford to do so currently, 'later', is the sort of thing we will find ourselves forced to put off indefinitely because the stats say it isn't efficient.

As for PSN, I'd much prefer to have the option to have the option of it to be free to do something rather than have already dedicated it to an action before we discover there is something we have to react to for one reason or another. Or even just assuming that it will trigger, because it doesn't always trigger. But that's complaints about why people are against expand econ x2...
 
bluefur87 said:
Unlikely to be immediate negative consequences for poppies. I don't think they strain the soil enough to push the black soil production. We're hopefully smart enough to keep reserves of crops at our temples to make sure no one variety dies out or, failing that, that we have back up varieties of various plants.

I just think putting off developing cultural goods for the short term wealth bonus with a promise of 'we'll totally do it later' is the sort of reasoning that stops those sorts of projects from ever going through in the first place. Unless we are in the middle of a crises or can not afford to do so currently, 'later', is the sort of thing we will find ourselves forced to put off indefinitely because the stats say it isn't efficient.

As for PSN, I'd much prefer to have the option to have the option of it to be free to do something rather than have already dedicated it to an action before we discover there is something we have to react to for one reason or another. Or even just assuming that it will trigger, because it doesn't always trigger. But that's complaints about why people are against expand econ x2...
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Well....we are not already in crisis, but soon we will be:
Academia Nut said:
While that was all internal farming and mining at the moment, there were some from Greenshore already warning that transport on the rivers and the Yllthon were going to become a major flashpoint.
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We need to prepare for the war, land and naval both, once Storm People or whoever else start rolling, or nomads come for another round. 7 martial while international situation is so volatile is a problematic situation which has to be addressed.
We will not have Wealth for Raise Army+More Warships+Influence with Snails instead of Poppies x2. And we need to take each of those actions next turn.
If anything, we should root around for ways to squeeze out Naval 5-6 or so sooner rather than later with this going on. But Naval 3 (+1 from Trader quest) should do for a while.

Military and navy are another case where we are not yet on fire and should use it to prepare for inevitable time when we are.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Well....we are not already in crisis, but soon we will be:


We need to prepare for the war, land and naval both, once Storm People or whoever else start rolling, or nomads come for another round. 7 martial while international situation is so volatile is a problematic situation which has to be addressed.
We will not have Wealth for Raise Army+More Warships+Influence with Snails instead of Poppies x2. And we need to take each of those actions next turn.
If anything, we should root around for ways to squeeze out Naval 5-6 or so sooner rather than later with this going on. But Naval 3 (+1 from Trader quest) should do for a while.

Military and navy are another case where we are not yet on fire and should use it to prepare for inevitable time when we are.
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Like it or not, this is the exact sort of justification that creates problems we could have stopped in the first place.


We can also easily make wealth during the mid turn. Do not become so focused on one goal that you forget we have a multitude of problems and we need to continue to nickle and dime to solve them so we don't face all of their issues at once.

We have three mercenary companies, and I don't think I've heard anything about them having an entire spirit bonded army. We aren't exactly weak here.
 
bluefur87 said:
Wait, what?
I can't remember that...
*Spends about twenty minutes searching.*
I can't find that...
And I can't think of an instance where I would have been desperate to make a deal to stop a war. Or at least, it would have been Phygrath what's his name, and that would have been me having to encourage you to vote for the little girl, which everyone was avoiding because of hereditary rulership, and I don't think I'd have to make you a deal to get you to vote for that.

I'm reasonably certain that you are getting me confused with someone. Could you at least point me to the timeframe I said this? I haven't exactly been very attentive for the last seven turns and it isn't my style to make a vote deal that carelessly, though I won't put it past me to have done so.

Bigger problem is that there monofocusing on any single trade good is dangerous.

If anything happens to make the cost of poppy go down or put our poppy crops in danger, then we're out a lot of trade goods, and that isn't exactly great. Taking bigger actions in expand snail cultivation also has the possibility to see more innovations as that involves constructing things in the water, giving us the possibility for discovering types of construction advances (it's where we got towers), where as poppies just include growing them. At best we could hope for different varieties.

Our snail dye is also a much rarer good in general, so there is better regional security, encouraging Ymaryn culture and pride. We also can get poppies or Cotton in PSN triggering (assuming we have enough Econ during the mid turn to not be forced to take Expand Economy or be put right back to 14ish econ at the beginning of next turn that is...), and the line of thought of 'well, it can wait one more turn before we take of this problem, right now let's just focus on stats,' is the sort of thing that leads to problems never getting solved.

Like, don't get me wrong, we have to spend some time thinking about stats so we don't hurt the Ymaryn nation, but we shouldn't be so obsessed over them that we ignore things we know are good in narrative.
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Ah sorry mate, turned out to be @PrimalShadow.

PrimalShadow said:
I'll commit to voting for a value slot next time the chance arises if you commit to voting against a war the next time a chance arises. Deal?
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Well, turns out it was a slot deal rather than vote deal. Oh well, slots are as good as DL.
 
bluefur87 said:
Like it or not, this is the exact sort of justification that creates problems we could have stopped in the first place.


We can also easily make wealth during the mid turn. Do not become so focused on one goal that you forget we have a multitude of problems and we need to continue to nickle and dime to solve them so we don't face all of their issues at once.

We have three mercenary companies, and I don't think I've heard anything about them having an entire spirit bonded army. We aren't exactly weak here.
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Fair, although to note: Storm People have 99% of Ymaryn tech - notably, they have siegecraft. But you were right, because...
Academia Nut said:
Significant amounts of unskilled labour, and it will push the guilds and traders towards wanting to acquire more unskilled labour.
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Well, shit.
I hate Life of Arete + bonus from Artisan Games we've chosen some votes. This is one of those votes. Now shit's way too expensive to have everything we actually need, leat alone want.

Back to "original" plan then.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex: Great Hall Expansion
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
I honestly do not see the need to change our Forest to Infrastructure.

Like, in the plan I had put forth we would gain 18 Econ on top of the taxes gained from our Colonies. That, combined with the loss Economic Expansion slots because of the poppies means that we are easily drop down to 10 Expansion slots, opening up three of our old cities and the passive policies they have.
 
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Sivantic said:
I honestly do not see the need to change our Forest to Infrastructure.

Like, in the plan I had put forth we would gain 18 Econ on top of the taxes gained from our Colonies. That, combined with the loss Economic Expansion slots because of the poppies means that we are easily drop down to 7 Expansion slots, opening up three of our old cities and the passive policies they have.
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Yeah. Instead of Policy Switch we could instead do another Expand Economy to drop our EE by another three and reactivate the cities while also boosting our stat pool.

Might get dangerous with our Centralization, though.
 
Sivantic said:
I honestly do not see the need to change our Forest to Infrastructure.

Like, in the plan I had put forth we would gain 18 Econ on top of the taxes gained from our Colonies. That, combined with the loss Economic Expansion slots because of the poppies means that we are easily drop down to 10 Expansion slots, opening up three of our old cities and the passive policies they have.
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At this point I'm taking what victories I can get. :(

Speaking of passives though...
bluefur87 said:
If we were to say, put on a passive art policy and then take Art Patronage, we have a good chance of maybe getting an extra art innovation roll, or maybe a bonus to one of them. Would Symphony trigger under such a combination @Academia Nut ?
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Academia Nut said:
It seems entirely possible.
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Can I encourage people to vote for the patronage passive in an attempt to gain more culture and culture innovation rolls for the upcoming passives gained by more cities?

...though looking at this quote, I may have worded it in a confusing way. @Academia Nut I meant can the Patronage Passive synergize with things that create culture like Art Patronage. This still stands, right?
 
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Sivantic said:
I honestly do not see the need to change our Forest to Infrastructure.

Like, in the plan I had put forth we would gain 18 Econ on top of the taxes gained from our Colonies. That, combined with the loss Economic Expansion slots because of the poppies means that we are easily drop down to 10 Expansion slots, opening up three of our old cities and the passive policies they have.
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It's because Repeated Expand Forests are just better than Forestry policy unless AN updates passive policy to be, like, 1 forest per turn per policy.
And we have a lot of backlog.
Although I would be immensely happy if Infra stopped being Urbanization: The Policy and was split into, like, Urbanization, Education (Library, Academy, Temple?) and Provincial (Palaces, Salterns) policies. Because thoe silly Infras do everything they can to make as much True Cities as possible, it seems, and it's really annoying to deal with.

Plus then those two slots freed can be used on Trade and Patronage. End would be, like... Infra x2, Vassal Support x2, Defensive, Patronage, Diplomacy, Skullduggery, Trade or the like.

bluefur87 said:
Can I encourage people to vote for the patronage passive in an attempt to gain more culture and culture innovation rolls for the upcoming passives gained by more cities?
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Why not?
Although I want Trade and Diplomacy passives next. Why? To ensure we keep passively trading with crazies to the east and slowly restore contacts with everyone. It's kinda important IMO, although I am not adamant about it.
 
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