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Paths of Civilization

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Do we really want cotton, or are we willing to go poppies, because that's 1 less Econ in costs for the same wealth.

Or we could do a secondary cotton which is almost as good as a main cotton at 1 less wealth and the same cost as poppies.
 
[X][Main]Great Dam
[X][Secondary]Build Roads
[X][Secondary]Build Roads x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall Expansion
[X][Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X][Guild][Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild][Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild][Secondary] Plant Cotton

So reasons

Great Dam, because because want to see it done and kinda can get it done fast, in case that anything happens

Build roads cause we need more roads

Change Policy cause we soon have the new actions and are good with the forests for the moment, while we definitly need more infrastructure Policies if we want to get all factions quests done

Great Hall Expansion in order to work towards the better government form

Poppies in order to get the wealth to pay for the other Guild actions

Build Docks for better interconnectivity with our western colonies

And more war ships in order to work towards the trader quest

edit: this leaves us with 2 Econ and 5 Wealth before any payments or Province actions

Integrate Txolla in hope that in combination with the Dam we might a lowlands canal unlocked, in order to trade with the eastern nomads

Edit 2: Change of Plans in face of forgotten 5 sec action & Stability loss if below 10 Wealth, will now leave us with
Adhoc vote count started by sidestory on Nov 3, 2017 at 6:37 AM, finished with 125473 posts and 34 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by sidestory on Nov 3, 2017 at 1:04 PM, finished with 125570 posts and 51 votes.
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[X][Main] Dam 4-6? action commitment, -2 Econ per action
[X][Secondary] Dam 4-6? action commitment, -2 Econ per action x2
[X][Secondary] Dam 4-6? action commitment, -2 Econ per action x3
[X][Secondary] Triangle Canal 8-11? action commitment, -3 Econ and -1 Tech per action
[X][Secondary] Triangle Canal 8-11? action commitment, -3 Econ and -1 Tech per action x2
[X][Secondary]Build Roads
 
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Hmm

@Academia Nut
Considering the fact that the Western Ymaryn have gone full jingoistic slaving conquerors, do they still have Pride in Acceptance or something that would similarly let them Econ vamp?

I imagine that people would be less willing to migrate to a place where there is mass slavery and conquest and such.
 
Redium said:
Personally, I don't really want to rush the Patrician's quest right now. I definitely want to complete it, but it isn't a burning priority for me to get it done right now. Put one or two actions towards it, but we have 3 turns to build 4 annexes.
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There may be some advantage towards rushing it. If I remember correctly, early quest completion is a factor in calculating rewards, and in determining how good the next quest is.

A long term governmental upgrade is the sort of situation where small bonuses at the start compound well.

Sivantic said:
Note has been changed again.

Actually...

Triangle Canal - There is land in the north where the soil is mostly clay and can be cut efficiently, allowing for a great canal to be cut between the two forks of the Black River, from which smaller irrigation canals can be built to water the land of the Stallions, massively increasing the available well watered land (8-11? action commitment, -3 Econ and -1 Tech per action)

Maybe it is this? I am not sure the Dam would help travel northeast.
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I'm not seeing that being of any help. That canal is to the north, if not northwest of the Ymaryn core. What would be roughly southeast Ukraine in reality. The burgeoning Kin Road is almost directly east. It sounds like it is the Not!Earth equivalent of the Silk Road route that skirts the north side of the Himalayas.

The Dam, and the canal that it enables, is the only thing we have right now that is slightly east-facing as far as river traffic goes, unless we can somehow trigger better river boat development. Of course, it is better for the Indian Ocean route, as that can take goods via water all the way from the south coast of China (local equivalent therof) up to Valleyhome, but it does help get further east right now.

Possibly, a second canal can link the two great rivers in Txollia, if we can integrate more of them? Although, that does look like a much longer distance than the Triangle Canal, unless there are navigable tributaries not on the maps I have.
 
Actually, I'm thinking we might need to Support Subordinate - Amber Road. Because, y'know, we want to make sure they don't die.
Not sure what to drop to free up the necessary econ though.

PrimalShadow said:
Congratulations. You just took Econ to -2, causing a famine.
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Hilariously he didn't. The vote's just illegal since he's got an odd number of secondaries. That's really only 4 dam actions for -8 econ. (including the kick)
 
ETA50M said:
[X][Main] Dam
-[X][Kick] Dam
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex x2
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Greenshore
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Guild] Plant Cotton
[X][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild sec] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
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You just spend 4 Econ on the Dam, 4 on Annexes, 4 on influence, 4 on cotton, 3 on snails, and 2 on kilns, for a total of 21 econ spent. That is 7 over our limit, dropping us by 7 stability, from 3 to -4.

Congratulations. You just caused a famine bad enough to take us from our normal max stability to literally fracturing. I guess that is one way to decrease government load.
 
Okay, so in early enough to skim over things, though I see the values we have might not be final yet, so voting is on hold while we sort that out(currently defaulting to rushing Annexes however, we need the government reform fast, and we also needed the Damned Dam yesterday).

The trade table is likely out of date going by the trade goods in the narration.
Vassal table MIGHT be out of date, not sure. We hadn't gotten back in contact with Amber Road yet?


Academia Nut said:
The king was throttling the governor of Sacredshore. The Palace Guards were uncertain if they should intervene, stand aside, or join in with a couple of swift kicks to the fool.

After a few moments they settled on breaking up the struggle between the two older men. When the king spat upon the governor, the guards did take that as a sign to join in.
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You know our Palace Guards and royal companions in general have a most interesting life.

I don't think ANYONE had seen Uvothyn get physical on someone before. He usually just has a headache at them.

Wonder what incensed him so...
As it turns out, making little enclaves during a massive social collapse was a great way to disrupt the transmission of knowledge about proper farming and land management techniques, and then ignoring the communities after was how you ended up entrenching bad practice that could then propagate out from there.
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Strong Opinions On Agriculture.

Oh my.
"I was actually more concerned with the whole 'threat of annihilation and displacement for heretical beliefs' thing that was going on a little bit ago," the community leader asked.

"Does your singular god call for disrespect of the land, poor farming and herding practice, and ill tended forests?" Uvothyn asked.

"Errr... no, no I don't think that's part of doctrine, although your whole 'land spirits' thing might make Him mad..." the man pointed out.

"Pray to him them if direct interface with the spirits offends your sensibilities so much. If you get blighted because you offended the local spirits then obviously he's a poor intermediary and we can rip you out root and branch with neither pity nor remorse. But if you screw up because no one told you the correct way to do things, that's on us," Uvothyn replies casually while waving his hand dismissively. "Whether there is one god or many matters less than the divine be properly venerated, with the most profound way being the care of the land. Even when the divine challenges you in the most profound ways, if you have kept faith in caring for the land then you shall not be found wanting."
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"Well, if you want to refer to your One God, he'd best damned well do His job as an intermediary. If he's going to King properly he should do so. Otherwise he's lying and we can burn you all"

The debates and negotiations and reconciliations had mostly resulted in the recognition that those in the enclaves were still a part of the People and thus deserved better treatment, and made clear that the biggest issue the majority of the People had with the One God weirdos was that their refusal to pay respects to spirits endangered them all - but since there was theological debate among more mainline sects about the exact nature of divinity and whether there were many individual spirits or many expressions of a single Truth, it was agreed that so long as they paid their respects to something and the land didn't show obvious displeasure then the upper levels of the priesthood had better things to worry about that quibbling about doctrine.
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And here we see the main beef is poor communications and assumptions.

Polytheists said: "You're farming wrongly!"
Monotheists heard: "You must pray to the spirits!"

Monotheists said: "That will offend our god."
Polytheists heard: "Farming properly will offend our god."

Cue riots.
Keeping in mind that many of our religious rituals are integrated into our agriculture. Ritual examination of root and leaf, pruning excessive growth, keeping the irrigation channels clear, planting a variety of crops to ensure soil fertility, and even how and when to lay down Black Soil.

Seeing a governor publicly shoveling shit for failing to ensure that his subordinates - even the hated ones - farmed correctly lead to a rapid updating of the theology of many of the more outcast groups. The revelation also triggered a widespread check of systems, and the ripping up of all sorts of bad practices that had crept in from the disruptions of the plague.

Additional Cost of -4 Mysticism and -4 Tech to reveal that additional problems were creeping in due to lack of oversight. 2 "phantom" Econ removed
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Ooo, ouch, dodged a bullet there because we could have discovered that by starving.
And the governor is a half exile now.

AND the monotheists had rapidly updated their beliefs to include how to handle the spirits of the land. Heh.

Around the time this whole thing was being dealt with, word got back that the various experts sent over to "aid with plague" recovery had managed to coax the Western Colonies into going along with the core territories, for the time being. Somewhat significantly, word had filtered back that when Tinshore had looked into settling around Trelli they had discovered that Freehills had sent over warriors to claim the walls of the abandoned city, and were now shipping in settlers. They had also claimed territory to the north, and had apparently seized most of the former Khemetri territories to their south. From the sounds of things they were also pushing into Tin Tribe territories in the west, and possibly skirmishing with Highlanders who had been competing with them for former Khemetri colonies to the south. The Saffron Isles also sounded like they had taken the plague relatively well and had finally bounced back from whatever the Trelli had done to them, and were now rapidly expanding throughout whatever territory lay in the unknown south-west and west.
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So lets see summation:
-Freehills had taken Trell, taken the Khem colonies and taking the Tin Tribes. Basically we've given them everything they needed to become a major power.

-Highland Kingdom had broken out of being North Korea by eating the Khem colonies. This means the Gulvalley canal is likely a bust unless one of the Khem colonies remain.

-Saffron Isles are back in business and grabbing the Mediterranean

-Western Ymaryn are eating up not-Greece, but also making sure Greenshore won't become an even bigger problem. Also theyv'e gone full slavery under a centralized administration(sounds like they dumped Pioneering Spirit though heh).

When the delegate from the nomads who had taken over the Horse Mountains came by, the king wondered if there would be more "good" news. As it was, the chieftain was actually quite thankful for the presents and was willing to work out some sort of adjudication system over territorial disputes so long as the trade kept flowing. In exchange, the 'Forhuch', which apparently just meant 'People', had sent over samples of their own salt from the Salt Sea and samples of the things that they apparently picked up through trade across that body of water. While there was a fairly standard grouping of artwork made from precious metals and fine pottery, there were three peculiar groups. The first was that many of the pieces of art had strange symbols that were assuredly writing but in no discernible language, the second was a fine collection of tried herbs that made a nice drink when brewed, and the third was...

"What is it?" Uvothyn asked of the fantastically fine cloth he rubbed between his fingers.

"It is called 'kin' in their language, I believe," the emissary explained.

"Fascinating. The chieftain expects tremendous trade with us, doesn't he?" Uvothyn asked.

"I expect so," the man stated.

"Trade across the roads to the east is going to be a gigantic pain, isn't?" The king asked.

"Yup."

"We should figure out some method of river trade to keep the maniacs over there trading instead of raiding, shouldn't we?"

"Sounds reasonable."
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Key highlights:
-Salt Dominance will be threatened once we build the canal. Keep that in mind.

-The dried( @Academia Nut typo there ) leaves are Tea from China, which we MIGHT be pursuing an analogue for competition once the traders realize this and boost innovation for that.

-The cloth is silk.

-The Forhuch WILL declare war on us eventually unless we build the Lowland Canal.

Yeomen (2)- Power: Adds faction power to secondary Martial Objective: Have 30 EE within 3 turns. Failure: -1 Stability [1/2]
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The Yeomen will be a PAIN to strengthen, since they boost Martial. It does mean the Patricians become even more useful, because in times of war, a Support Yeomen from the Patricians will give us a whole 6 more Martial than we do.

We're going to need more gyms.
 
PrimalShadow said:
You just spend 4 Econ on the Dam, 4 on Annexes, 4 on influence, 4 on cotton, 3 on snails, and 2 on kilns, for a total of 21 econ spent. That is 7 over our limit, dropping us by 7 stability, from 3 to -4.

Congratulations. You just caused a famine bad enough to take us from our normal max stability to literally fracturing. I guess that is one way to decrease government load.
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How are you constantly questioning me right after I fix it.
 
Build the dam but don't kick it, hastily bulding that type of project would have massive narrative problems, aka, critical dam failure that AN would surely roll.
 
bluefur87 said:
Our biggest bottleneck is Influence Subordinate if we want to do it, as that sucks a lot of wealth.

If we get rid of that we kinda need to do a main build docks and hope for innovation rolls to ease connection with our colonies. Good news is that only costs 1 wealth, leaving us with 3 which would be enough for for roads, if we do do that.

Our bigger problem is Econ costs.
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So let us start with Guild, since some of those cost Wealth
Expand Snail Cultivation [Guild] - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Wealth, +1 Culture, potential additional effects
* M: -3 Econ, +3 Wealth, +1 Culture, increased chance of additional effects

Expand Vineyard [Guild] - There is a location in Blackriver that is judged an ideal place to grow the small fruits that are favoured for making a particularly potent drink
*S: -1 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +1 Wealth, +1 Culture
*M: -3 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +4 Wealth, +1 Culture

Plant Cotton [Guild] - These resource intensive plants produce an incredibly fine textile desirable for its superior comfort, although much of the cost comes from how labour intensive it is
*S: -3 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, new trade good
*M: -4 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +7 Wealth, +1 Culture, new trade good

Plant Hemp [Guild] - This sturdy plant has been planted in limited quantities before, but you now have cultivars that can take well to being planted in large areas and could use it for
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Tech, +1 Mysticism, +1 Diplo if have boats, +1 Econ next turn
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +2 Tech, +1 Mysticism, +2 Diplo if have boats, +1 Econ next turn, other effects

Plant Poppies [Guild] - Within some temple grounds there are gardens where the poppy grows, and the milk of the poppy can be harvested. Expanding production should have interesting effects.
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +3 Wealth
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth, new trade good
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These are the only projects that do not cost Wealth. My suggestion is Main Plant Poppies, Main Snail Cultivation and a secondary Snail Cultivation. That brings us to a 11 Wealth and avoids the Stability loss. Also lowers Economic Expansion slots by three to help give us back a city and minimizes Econ use.

That leaves us at

Economy 7(+4-1)
Wealth 4(+10)(+1)
Econ Expansion 22

Starting the Dam costs two Econ and Main Project slot. Support Subordinate costs 3 Wealth, 3 Econ, and another Main Project slot

Economy 2(+4-1)
Wealth 1(+11)(+1)

That leaves three Secondary Project slots. I am thinking of tossing them all into Expand Econ to ensure we start next turn at 24 Economy.

Thoughts?
 
[X][Main] Dam
[X][secondary] Grand Hall Annex
[X][secondary] Watchtower
[X][secondary] Watchtower x2
[X][secondary] Influence Subordinate - Greenshore
[X][secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Cotton
[X][Guild] Build Glasswork
[X][Guild Secondary] Efficient Charcoal Kiln

2 + 2 + 1 + 4 + 2 + 1
4 + 5 + 3
9+ 3
12 econ

5[+1] + 7 + 1 - 1
6 + 7 + 0
13 wealth

Took me forever, but I found a workable combination.
 
[X][Main] Dam 4-6? action commitment, -2 Econ per action
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex {S}
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex x2 {S}
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Plant Cotton
[X][Guild sec] More Warships

if i have count this right this get us to 20 Wealth and starts everything we want to start this turn.

Now hear me out on the Delegate land. It gives us the Wealth we need and helps set us up for road building next turn as it helps keep our Economy up.with the plague gone we don't need the high centralisation anymore and would get us to 4 stability. If you vote for this plan you are committing to a lot of road next turn.
 
Sivantic said:
So let us start with Guild, since some of those cost Wealth


These are the only projects that do not cost Wealth. My suggestion is Main Plant Poppies, Main Snail Cultivation and a secondary Snail Cultivation. That brings us to a 11 Wealth and avoids the Stability loss. Also lowers Economic Expansion slots by three to help give us back a city and minimizes Econ use.

That leaves us at

Economy 7(+4-1)
Wealth 4(+10)(+1)
Econ Expansion 22

Starting the Dam costs two Econ and Main Project slot. Support Subordinate costs 3 Wealth, 3 Econ, and another Main Project slot

Economy 2(+4-1)
Wealth 1(+11)(+1)

That leaves three Secondary Project slots. I am thinking of tossing them all into Expand Econ to ensure we start next turn at 24 Economy.

Thoughts?
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It's nice, but it doesn't get us Annex Upgrades.
I'm looking at our stats and we basically have a choice between Dam, Influence (not support) Subordinates, and Annexes. We can do any two of those, but not all three.

Also I'd replace one of the expand Econs with a Survey, since they're free as a secondary and if we get gold or silver mine we'll be much better off.
 
Looks like our neighbors bounced back from the plague surprisingly well. Doesn't have to be a bad thing. They can absorb blows from outside forces for a while, and if we can get a regional trade network going, our whole part of the world could become rich and prosperous...for a couple of turns, anyway.

It does make the dam a priority for me, however. Claiming the agricultural bounty of the lowlands may be essential to staying on top of the hill.

I'm actually not sold on government upgrades. It seems like the GM is still figuring some stuff out and it might be better to delay that for another turn or so.
 
Andres110 said:
Ok.


Hearing you out was a mistake. You apparently only care about stats.
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We know with the new system that the Patricians are going to use Delegate land on their own as that an obvious way to use their actions for their benefit. So we should use it now as a test when we are at High centralisation and stability. With the added bonus that we really could use it right now for the wealth.
 
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