Paths of Civilization

Abby Normal · Nov 2, 2017

Good news! AN made another update to the civ sheet (presumably after my post), and our western colonies are seemingly all (projected to be) paying taxes again:

Academia Nut said:
Economy 24/27 [+4-1]
-Sustainable Forests 29{36}/34 [+1]
-Econ Expansion 21 [+1-5] [Overcrowding Min: -4]

(or, i suppose, 2 are paying taxes again, and we suddenly have the transportation for the Thunder horse to provide taxes by itself rather than providing 0.5 taxes that round down to nothing, but probably its the western colonies

)

George · Nov 2, 2017

notgreat said:
When was this? Seriously, can you name the timeframe? The times I can remember being at max cent were:
1) Way early on, pre-math
2) during the Sacred Forest Renewal, and shortly afterwards. Solved by gaining Wildcat Prospecting
3) Pre-palace, when we were at yellow min and max simultaneously
4) just now, after we starved ourselves and needed to quickly recover the stability without costing us too much econ.

Note that I agree that we need more roads right now, they're a very high priority. This does mean we can't Enforce Justice unless our centralization starts dropping low again. However, we've never been at a period of max centralization while also being in a position to build roads for more than a turn or so.

Keep in mind that we have to be in white Cent to take Main Roads.

notgreat · Nov 2, 2017

George said:
Keep in mind that we have to be in white Cent to take Main Roads.

By max cent there I meant upper yellow. The only times we've been at actual red cent have been for a single turn of Sacred Forest Renewal and just recently when all our cities came online at the same time.

Abby Normal · Nov 2, 2017

Abby Normal said:
Analysis and Diffs -- "Riding Off"

Minor edits made to my Extended Projects tracker on my last A&D post, per my discussion with @Kiba

Also, given the current discussion on cent tolerance, since i was already on the post i figured i'd include the relevant sections:

Abby Normal said:
[High Tolerance: 11]
-Government Base "High" (7)
-21 Interconnectivity (+7) [+1 per 3 IC]
-Legacies (+2)
-17 Provinces (-3) [-1 per 2 provinces over 12]
-0 Unsupported True Cities (-0) [-1 per Unsupported City. Free Cities and Capital are supported. Governor's Palaces can support 1 city per 3 GPs.]
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2) [-1 per GP]

Abby Normal said:
Interconnectivity (21/55)
[Can gain Cent from roads up to half of max IC value (27/55), any past that will be banked]
[+7 Max Centralization Tolerance (IC/3, round down). 0 Banked Centralization]
[Max IC Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]

Abby Normal said:
-Valleyhome [Capital, Palace, Aqueduct, Baths, Market, Sig. Walls] (20 EE Threshold)
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls] (20 EE Threshold)
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (18 EE Threshold)
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (14 EE Threshold)
-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (8 EE Threshold)

So, given that we're taking the 2 cent drain PSN choice and have 9 cent, we'll be at 7 cent. Therefore as is we'll be exactly at the point where if all of our cities respawned we'd hit overcentralization. Of course, its unlikely that we'd hit that low an EE value in the near future unless we tried, or that we'd increase our city attraction enough to otherwise cause them all to activate.

George · Nov 2, 2017

notgreat said:
By max cent there I meant upper yellow. The only times we've been at actual red cent have been for a single turn of Sacred Forest Renewal and just recently when all our cities came online at the same time.

Okay, but even at yellow we can't do Main Roads, and since veekie lost the Enforce Justice debate we'd be a bit reticent to do them at low stability as well.

Andres · Nov 2, 2017

George said:
Okay, but even at lower yellow we can't do Main Roads, and since veekie lost the Enforce Justice debate we'd be a bit reticent to do them at low stability as well.

When did veekie lose that debate? When did we have a debate?

Kiba · Nov 2, 2017

[Main] Influence Subordinate
[sec] GH
[sec] GH x2
[sec] GH x3
[sec] GH x4
[sec] Watchtower
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] dock

Complete the Grand Hall in one turn, work on colonial loyalty and connectivity, and regenerate wealth.

Estimate econ cost:

3 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 1
7 + 5 + 6 + 1
12 + 7
19 econ.

A compromise might have start the Dam in this turn. But I think we all agree that governmental upgrade is critical.

George · Nov 2, 2017

Kiba said:
[Main] Influence Subordinate
[sec] GH
[sec] GH x2
[sec] GH x3
[sec] GH x4
[sec] Watchtower
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] dock

Complete the Grand Hall in one turn, work on colonial loyalty and connectivity, and regenerate wealth.

Estimate econ cost:

3 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 1
7 + 5 + 6 + 1
12 + 7
19 econ.

A compromise might have start the Dam in this turn. But I think we all agree that governmental upgrade is critical.

I'm not convinced rushing the upgrade is the right thing to do. I expect it to have a lot of benefits but unlike with the Palace I think we're doing just fine at the moment, and the government upgrade comes with a game difficulty increase from the faction stuff, so putting it off for a turn sounds valuable to me.

Redium · Nov 2, 2017

Kiba said:
[Main] Influence Subordinate
[sec] GH
[sec] GH x2
[sec] GH x3
[sec] GH x4
[sec] Watchtower
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] dock

Personally, I don't really want to rush the Patrician's quest right now. I definitely want to complete it, but it isn't a burning priority for me to get it done right now. Put one or two actions towards it, but we have 3 turns to build 4 annexes.

I think an important consideration is that we're going to be blowing a lot of LTE this turn, no matter what. Our current EE refund is only 1.5 (probably rounds to 1) right now and were looking to lose 1 EE every turn due Forestry Policy. This plan (combined with our expenses) could destroy 16 LTE. Considering we only have 45, that's an enormous loss. It would make it almost impossible for us to finish the yeoman quest and it would force most of our cities to come back online very soon, potentially over-centralizing us if we're not careful.

Most Guild actions use a lot of LTE, but Plant Cotton is extremely LTE expensive; it would destroy 6 LTE to do it this turn. Build Gold Mine is a better choice since it gives twice as much Wealth at the cost of 4 LTE. We do need the Wealth, but we need to be conscious not to destroy LTE if at all possible.

I think we'll be better served by doing some Trade Missions, Sailing Missions, Survey Lands, or a study action because it simply destroys less LTE. Really, anything that only costs 1 Econ. If our refund actually rounds up, that will give a lot more flexibility.

SpeckofStardust · Nov 2, 2017

Kiba said:
[Main] Influence Subordinate
[sec] GH
[sec] GH x2
[sec] GH x3
[sec] GH x4
[sec] Watchtower
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] dock

Complete the Grand Hall in one turn, work on colonial loyalty and connectivity, and regenerate wealth.

Estimate econ cost:

3 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 1
7 + 5 + 6 + 1
12 + 7
19 econ.

A compromise might have start the Dam in this turn. But I think we all agree that governmental upgrade is critical.

Theirs no point to upgrading when our nation is so disconnected.

George · Nov 2, 2017

Redium said:
Personally, I don't really want to rush the Patrician's quest right now. I definitely want to complete it, but it isn't a burning priority for me to get it done right now. Put one or two actions towards it, but we have 3 turns to build 4 annexes.

I think an important consideration is that we're going to be blowing a lot of LTE this turn, no matter what. Our current EE refund is only 1.5 (probably rounds to 1) right now and were looking to lose 1 EE every turn due Forestry Policy. This plan (combined with our expenses) could destroy 16 LTE. Considering we only have 45, that's an enormous loss. It would make it almost impossible for us to finish the yeoman quest and it would force most of our cities to come back online very soon, potentially over-centralizing us if we're not careful.

Most Guild actions use a lot of LTE, but Plant Cotton is extremely LTE expensive; it would destroy 6 LTE to do it this turn. Build Gold Mine is a better choice since it gives twice as much Wealth at the cost of 4 LTE. We do need the Wealth, but we need to be conscious not to destroy LTE if at all possible.

I think we'll be better served by doing some Trade Missions, Sailing Missions, Survey Lands, or a study action because it simply destroys less LTE. Really, anything that only costs 1 Econ. If our refund actually rounds up, that will give a lot more flexibility.

I assume we won't have gold mine available. If we do, I expect it to be a popular choice.

Also, we do want to lower LTE some. Not by 16 points, but some. It'd be very nice to get two cities back online.

Horologer · Nov 2, 2017

Kiba said:
But I think we all agree that governmental upgrade is critical.

Critical, yes. Urgent, no.

notgreat · Nov 2, 2017

George said:
Okay, but even at lower yellow we can't do Main Roads, and since veekie lost the Enforce Justice debate we'd be a bit reticent to do them at low stability as well.

...lower yellow is like 0 centralization or so right now. Where if we go lower we hit lower red. Sorry if my terminology was unclear.

And again, when did this happen? Veekie won every EJ debate up until the most recent one (which lasted 1 turn) and I guess the nonexistent one vs. the heroes in charge of the Sacred Forest Renewal.

George · Nov 2, 2017

notgreat said:
...lower yellow is like 0 centralization or so right now. Where if we go lower we hit lower red. Sorry if my terminology was unclear.

And again, when did this happen? Veekie won every EJ debate up until the most recent one (which lasted 1 turn) and I guess the nonexistent one vs. the heroes in charge of the Sacred Forest Renewal.

Sorry, I have no idea why I typed lower yellow there. I meant yellow as opposed to gold. I guess not really being able to see the difference unless they're side by side might be why?

As to the timeline, you'll have to ask veekie, not me.

Kiba · Nov 2, 2017

[Main] Influence Subordinate
[sec] GH
[sec] Dam
[sec] Dam x2
[sec] Trade mission
[sec] Trade mission x2 (Harmurri)
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] Dock

How about this? A main trade mission has a chance of recouping wealth cost. We get started on a dam, and we do the a grand hall annex which should start netting us diplomacy.

PrimalShadow · Nov 2, 2017

Redium said:
I think an important consideration is that we're going to be blowing a lot of LTE this turn, no matter what. Our current EE refund is only 1.5 (probably rounds to 1) right now and were looking to lose 1 EE every turn due Forestry Policy. This plan (combined with our expenses) could destroy 16 LTE. Considering we only have 45, that's an enormous loss. It would make it almost impossible for us to finish the yeoman quest and it would force most of our cities to come back online very soon, potentially over-centralizing us if we're not careful.

We have a refund of 2; Redshore has been confirmed to count double.

Carrnage · Nov 2, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Oh, and if you destroy the patrician faction, a turn or two later the leading faction will have a name change and their power will become "Can add or subtract their faction power from factions".

speaking of, are any factions close to fissioning/evolving?

bluefur87 · Nov 3, 2017

Kiba said:
[Main] Influence Subordinate
[sec] GH
[sec] Dam
[sec] Dam x2
[sec] Trade mission
[sec] Trade mission x2 (Harmurri)
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] Dock

How about this? A main trade mission has a chance of recouping wealth cost. We get started on a dam, and we do the a grand hall annex which should start netting us diplomacy.

I don't think we can afford the initial wealth cost of a trade mission on top of a main influence subordinate... Unless we have admin hero levels of organization and at that point we don't get to chose the turn.

Also, I'd put down at least two GH so we can finish the quest in a reactionary vote. That said, I'd push for just getting this out of the way. An upgraded form of government means higher Cent tolerance and higher cent tolerance means we can spam roads sooner, though I'm not so sure about the spending near 20 Econ while only relying on our province actions to re-imemburse us. I'd probably say at least a secondary ourselves. Also a secondary Build Dock doesn't get us any inovation rolls, so it's rather pointless. So if I were to go on this compromise vote I'd adjust it to.

[Main] Influence Subordinate- Greenshore
[Secondary] Grand Hall Annex
[Secondary] Grand Hall Annex x2
[Secondary] Dam
[Secondary] Dam x2
[Secondary] Expand Econ
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] Efficient Charcoal Kilns

or

[Main] Influence Subordinate- Greenshore
[Secondary] Grand Hall Annex
[Secondary] Grand Hall Annex x2
[Secondary] Dam
[Secondary] Dam x2
[Secondary] Build Dock
[Guild] Plant Cotton
[Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[Guild sec] Build Dock

Assuming we have enough wealth and the Order of Operations doesn't screw us over on this (That is, I believe we'd need to have re-established trade of some sort with the salt gift action at least)

Edit: Also, wait, if we only have 17 provinces then...

Academia Nut said:
Player Actions: 1 Main + 2 Secondary, +1 Secondary/4 Provinces After First 8

We should only have 1 Main and 4 Secondaries. At least until 20 Provinces (assuming there is no rounding up, which I don't believe there should be).

Kiba · Nov 3, 2017

bluefur87 said:
I don't think we can afford the initial wealth cost of a trade mission on top of a main influence subordinate... Unless we have admin hero levels of organization and at that point we don't get to chose the turn.

Also, I'd put down at least two GH so we can finish the quest in a reactionary vote. That said, I'd push for just getting this out of the way. An upgraded form of government means higher Cent tolerance and higher cent tolerance means we can spam roads sooner, though I'm not so sure about the spending near 20 Econ while only relying on our province actions to re-imemburse us. I'd probably say at least a secondary ourselves. Also a secondary Build Dock doesn't get us any inovation rolls, so it's rather pointless. So if I were to go on this compromise vote I'd adjust it to.

8 - 8 - 3 + 7 = 4 wealth.

Assuming our wealth income don't return, we can only spend 2 wealth.

A secondary Dock doesn't give us any innovation rolls, true, but it also increases our connectivity along the Black Sea.

bluefur87 · Nov 3, 2017

Kiba said:
8 - 8 - 3 + 7 = 4 wealth.

Assuming our wealth income don't return, we can only spend 2 wealth.

A secondary Dock doesn't give us any innovation rolls, true, but it also increases our connectivity along the Black Sea.

Main influence costs 3 and any trade mission costs 2 Wealth, raising it to 5 total.

Academia Nut said:
Influence Subordinate - By transferring specialists and teachers to subordinates they can be nudged into behaving more to the liking of the core provinces
*S: -2 Diplo, Transfer 2 Econ, Wealth, Culture, Tech, and Mysticism; influences subordinate culture
*M: -3 Diplo, Transfer 3 Econ, Wealth, Culture, Tech, and Mysticism; significantly influences subordinate culture, +1 Loyalty

Academia Nut said:
Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world
* S: -2 Wealth, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo
* M: -2 Wealth, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1 Diplo, +1-3 Diplo end of turn, +0-2 Wealth end of turn

Killer_Whale · Nov 3, 2017

We need to contact Amber Road still, and see if they're okay.
The vassal list on the front page says (12/14+6), when an manual count should give us 13. And they're the only one we still don't know the condition of.

Sivantic · Nov 3, 2017

...Do you all already know that the King will die before we choose or is this all a thought excercise?

notgreat · Nov 3, 2017

Sivantic said:
...Do you all already know that the King will die before we choose or is this all a thought excercise?

Not known, but likely from context clues (dude's hair is already white)

We'll have to see though, I suspect that he'll still be alive enough to handle the main turn before dying. Wegot him young, him only lasting a single turn would be one of the shortest heroes ever.

veekie · Nov 3, 2017

notgreat said:
When was this? Seriously, can you name the timeframe? The times I can remember being at max cent were:
1) Way early on, pre-math
2) during the Sacred Forest Renewal, and shortly afterwards. Solved by gaining Wildcat Prospecting
3) Pre-palace, when we were at yellow min and max simultaneously
4) just now, after we starved ourselves and needed to quickly recover the stability without costing us too much econ.

Note that I agree that we need more roads right now, they're a very high priority. This does mean we can't Enforce Justice unless our centralization starts dropping low again. However, we've never been at a period of max centralization while also being in a position to build roads for more than a turn or so.

Before 2. Ever since we unlocked province actions at all.

This was a LONG predicted issue which nobody else even cared about until we ran into connectivity issues due to being literally unable to build roads and suddenly people DID care.

Now no longer an issue since we can actually discharge Cent now.

bluefur87 · Nov 3, 2017

Sivantic said:
...Do you all already know that the King will die before we choose or is this all a thought excercise?

I mean, thought exercise for me at this point...

I want my update.

Paths of Civilization

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Incertae sedis

Human