Paths of Civilization

Alratan · Oct 31, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Because some of us predicted that Western ones are going to be a pain back in the July because we knew we wouldn't gather our wits to influence them until it is too late. And here we fucking are, because long-term consequences and "no, we won't have actions for Influence" are totally not a thing until they suddenly are and everything is on fire.

It's basically sunk costs at this point: it would be nice to have them if we influenced them ~10 turns ago to prevent drift. Now it's way too costly to be viable, considering first influence is likely to not be enough, what with centuries of not doing a thing.

People were saying precisely the same thing about the eastern colonies. That didn't stop people betting everything on keeping them.

This looks a lot more like trying to lose the colonies so you can claim vindication about a previous argument, to be honest.

I also don't believe that the first influence action will do noting given the context of us helping them deal with an appalling plague. Particularly if we get the non-linear benefits of taking multiple mains of the same thing at once.

Abby Normal · Oct 31, 2017

DakkaMania said:
ecause even all together, the Colonies have 6 Provinces between them and non of our megaprojects (except maybe the cultural/administrative ones).

Actually, as of paleblood moonrise they have at least7 provinces, and potentially much more:
Western Wall – [Main] Expand Econ, [Sec] Expand Forests
Greenshore – [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] Governor's Palace (6/9)
Tinriver – [Main] Expand Econ, [Sec] Build Road
They get a [main] as a base, and then each secondary represents at least 1 extra province, and almost certainly represents 2 provinces each, since I think AN confirmed that greenshore had 4 provinces a while back. So minimum 2, 3, 2 provinces, for WW, GS, and TR, respectively. Likely something like [2-3], [4-5],[2-3] provinces, respectively, for a total of 8-11 provinces.
Not to mention that they are almost entirely coastal and so would have advantages to building up their navy, and would focus on it more than we would, since we have so many things we like to focus on, and that they have some pretty damn good land available to them-- greenshore has by word of AN the best land around for farming, while Western Wall has an amazingly defensible capital true city in the mountains...right next to the provinces we integrated from them, that are likely still pretty fond of the WW themselves. Plus, like the western ymaryn, they're likely to keep most of our useful traits while ignoring things like "dont use slaves" that are just so very inconvenient for our tech level, so they'll have many of our bonuses, while also being able to just throw slaves at problems instead of spending tech as much as we do now.
Like, they're not likely to be able to kill us, not directly, but they certainly could be a big problem if they decided to fight us.

Cytokinesis · Oct 31, 2017

[X] Alratan

I want to keep our colonies, and we are going to need the synergy from multiple actions.

ctulhuslp · Oct 31, 2017

Alratan said:
Given that the nomads were attacking the core within that phase, we were risking the complete annihilation of the Ymaryn. We were lucky enough to hit a three in ten thousand chance. Just because you win at a game like Russian Roulette doesn't make having played it sensible.

They'd have the same reason they might have now if we care to, bribery.

Yes, it was stupidly risky. We kinda understand it now.
That has little/nothing to do with Western Subordinates: specifically, their ties to us have been dropping for centuries; I do not see a reason to believe one Influence per sub will be enough to solve the problem rather than delay them and then it all blow up later on, when we are even less able to spare rereources.

If we could convince the thread to mash Influence button repeatedly for the next dozen turns, so that we do it ~every turn on one of subordinates, I would be fine with going full tilt on helping them. As is, it won't do anything long-term, we'll return to this shit very soon, so there is no point chasing them.

Alratan said:
People were saying precisely the same thing about the eastern colonies. That didn't stop people betting everything on keeping them.

This looks a lot more like trying to lose the colonies so you can claim vindication about a previous argument, to be honest.

I also don't believe that the first influence action will do noting given the context of us helping them deal with an appalling plague. Particularly if we get the non-linear benefits of taking multiple mains of the same thing at once.

Eastern colonies actually (maybe unwillingly, but still) helped us against nomadic invaders, acting as an ablative shield. That's more use than we are going to get from Greenshore or Tinriver, thanks to geography. WW can be of such use - and lo and behold, I am voting to influence them.

And we are influencing eastern subordinates. We did this very turn, we did after meteor,and so on. If we were influencing western colonies even with such mediocre frequency I would not be against an idea of keeping them. We weren't. The consequences: western colonies are trying to go independent, Eastern are overflowing with loyalty.

First influence will help - but it will need follow-up. Do you honestly think you can convince thread to vote influence next turn? Or the turn after? Or the turn after next? I sure as hell cannot - pushing for influence is thankless and pointless waste of time until it is too late.

DragonParadox · Oct 31, 2017

[X] Alratan

On second thought I think I've argued myself around to this. the nomad still has people in his tribe from the Pure and he sounds interested in trade. the colonies are more important then doing salt gift right away.

Rakuhn · Oct 31, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Because some of us predicted that Western ones are going to be a pain back in the July because we knew we wouldn't gather our wits to influence them until it is too late. And here we fucking are, because long-term consequences and "no, we won't have actions for Influence" are totally not a thing until they suddenly are and everything is on fire.

It's basically sunk costs at this point: it would be nice to have them if we influenced them ~10 turns ago to prevent drift. Now it's way too costly to be viable, considering first influence is likely to not be enough, what with centuries of not doing a thing.

To be fair, Tinriver were at 4 loyalty before the plague hit (thanks to us killing the pirates), and even though the Western Wall and Greenshore were at 2 loyalty, they were around 3 or 4 loyalty the turn before. It isn't like we let our subordinates fester in a low loyalty state.

And I find it highly unlikely that the current issues stem from cultural drift, so much as surrounding circumstances. The Second Sons Crisis, the loss of our navy, the humiliation of our new Blood Rain mercenary company, the Western Ymaryn being vassalized, the new food tax, and then the plague were probably much more impactful. Improving our cultural ties probably would have been completely negligible in the grand scheme of things.

LoserThree · Oct 31, 2017

Now is the time to reaffirm the unity of the People.

Find a way to do all three influences.

Does this work?

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability,-4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x2
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with WesternWall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x3
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

ctulhuslp · Oct 31, 2017

Rakuhn said:
To be fair, Tinriver were at 4 loyalty before the plague hit (thanks to us killing the pirates), and even though the Western Wall and Greenshore were at 2 loyalty, they were around 3 or 4 loyalty the turn before. It isn't like we let our subordinates fester in a low loyalty state.

And I find it highly unlikely that the current issues stem from cultural drift, so much as surrounding circumstances. The Second Sons Crisis, the loss of our navy, the humiliation of our new Blood Rain mercenary company, the Western Ymaryn being vassalized, the new food tax, and then the plague were probably much more impactful. Improving our cultural ties probably would have been completely negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Greenshore supported Western Ymaryn over us in the course of SS crisis: that is, they basically acted as a channel of stuff from us to WY. That's why I think it's deeper problem: even before all that you listed, they were disloyal, statsheet be damned.

PrimalShadow · Oct 31, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
On the mechanics side, we would once again have a neighbors that Econ vamps us through refugees, which is annoying and not something that we want.

One PiA neighbor or two; it doesn't make much difference. Unless the WY lost the trait from closing the pass (which is not-impossible), the benefit from avoiding a second PiA state is minimal.

Raichu1972 said:
We would lose 3 Econ income a turn.

That is about 1/2 a secondary action. Not nothing but not a major concern.

Raichu1972 said:
We would have a competing trade power on the Black Sea.

We only make, what, 6 Wealth/turn from trade? Even if we we cut that by 33%, the difference is can be made up with merely 2 Marketplaces (which can be built in 1 main).

Overall you said a number of interesting things, but I don't think these mechanical arguments are especially strong.

Abby Normal · Oct 31, 2017

Tentatively going with more influence, thoguh i dont think the vote will change at this point:

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability,-4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x2
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)

...Though admittedly, doing the salt gift or trade missions might be necessary to get rid of the wealth income penalty from no external trade partners, but... *shrug*

Susano · Oct 31, 2017

DragonParadox said:
We tried to conquer Trelli, twice. Our society clearly has no objection to conquest, certainly not to the point where we would just allow secession because someone asked.

What a curious attitude! Assuming a priori that secession is something that HAS to be fought for.

As for the Trelli, while many here did indeed just wanted to grab the straits in an imperialist manner, what tipped the scales was their behaviour in regards to slaves etc. We wanted to end chattel slavery. And sure, if the breakaway Ymaryn states begin instituting slavery, then that would justify action as well. But not the breaking away itself.

Raichu1972 said:
The idea of them paying for the Land could be possible, if it was anyone other than the Ymaryn.
Remember, we don't have private land ownership.

But we do know the concept of property as such. So, the King gives away from his property, and receives compensation/payment in return. That should be doable in Ymaryn legal terms. And as long as the break-away Ymaryn are also Personal Stewards of Nature, well, then that aspect is covered.

Raichu1972 · Oct 31, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
One PiA neighbor or two; it doesn't make much difference. Unless the WY lost the trait from closing the pass (which is not-impossible), the benefit from avoiding a second PiA state is minimal.

That is about 1/2 a secondary action. Not nothing but not a major concern.

We only make, what, 6 Wealth/turn from trade? Even if we we cut that by 33%, the difference is can be made up with merely 2 Marketplaces (which can be built in 1 main).

Overall you said a number of interesting things, but I don't think these mechanical arguments are especially strong.

I mostly care about keeping the colonies for narrative reasons, but I put some mechanical arguments in there for those who care more about such things.

Something that I think has been overlooked is that it's much easier to influence a colony than it is to influence a foreign nation.
As a colony, they normally follow our commands, and assist us without having to be asked to do so.

as foreign nations, the colonies will likely act against our interests, as a Ymaryn dominance would be bad for them, who can take great advantage of being so close to the crossing between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea.

I wouldn't be surprised if whatever nation that forms essentially takes the spot of the Trelli as the mediator between us and Khemetri, with all that implies.

Rakuhn · Oct 31, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Greenshore supported Western Ymaryn over us in the course of SS crisis: that is, they basically acted as a channel of stuff from us to WY. That's why I think it's deeper problem: even before all that you listed, they were disloyal, statsheet be damned.

Greenshore supported the Western Ymaryn against nomads. They were securing their northern border and ensuring that they'd be better connected to the polity as a whole. I'm going to bet that (between Lord's Loyalty, Rage Against the Steppes, our recent imperial actions, and our then overflowing martial score) they initially believed that the central government would assist with the fight and promptly regain control of any warriors that had left our service.

And unless I'm misreading the quest, they only supported the Western Ymaryn until we were no longer potentially able to absorb the breakaways. By the time that the WY became truly independent, we had already passed the subordinate reform and our second sons crisis targeted the pirates instead. After the WY became independent, they were treated as any other polity with close familial ties would be.

In summary, I find their actions to be selfish and myopic, but not inherently disloyal. I could see even freshly installed governors doing the exact same thing.

tenchifew · Oct 31, 2017

It seems that shrine annexes give RA tolerance - this is something we really need.

This said I would really want to build a second garden annex, to receive its first bonus.

Alratan · Oct 31, 2017

Susano said:
But we do know the concept of property as such. So, the King gives away from his property, and receives compensation/payment in return. That should be doable in Ymaryn legal terms. And as long as the break-away Ymaryn are also Personal Stewards of Nature, well, then that aspect is covered.

The king doesn't give his property away, I believe. We still have communal property for land and tools, I believe.

PrimalShadow · Oct 31, 2017

DakkaMania said:
@PrimalShadow

I don't know if you have already seen it and I just missed it being mentioned, but:

+1 Tech Refund/2 palaces,

From the Megaproject tab.

WOW. Did not see that; thanks. This definitely makes me want more GPs.

DakkaMania said:
So with the two Palaces we already have, we have 2 Tech Refund and a +1 drip.

'fraid not. We have +1 Tech refund for the two GPs, and that is it. We need two more GPs to get to a 2-point refund.

Abby Normal said:
@PrimalShadow i think i saw making plans but dont remember if you had that taken into account?

Yep. Taken into account.

DragonParadox said:
And in two turns or so when they start raiding our coasts and demanding tribute to stop that "written off" sea dominance will look very nice.

It would be exceedingly strange for them to do that, given that:
a) They are going to be participating in the Games, and therefore nominally allies,
b) They are going to be trading with us and therefore don't want to sour relations,
c) They should remember being the same nation as us, and probably won't attack us,
d) They should have some self-preservation and not attack a polity that is significantly bigger, with significantly greater shipbuilding capacity and military presence.

Abby Normal · Oct 31, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
'fraid not. We have +1 Tech refund for the two GPs, and that is it. We need two more GPs to get to a 2-point refund.

One more, actually; it just says "palace", not "governor's palace", so presumably the original palace counts as well, so we're at 1.5 refund...which likely rounds down.

bluefur87 · Oct 31, 2017

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability,-4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x2
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)

Eh, sure. If nothing else this will encourage our king to do main influence if it doesn't pass due to how high it is getting. I'd probably still want this to win, but it is really important we don't blow up in the mean time, and getting Greenshore is something we need to do to stop the headaches in the future.

This also leaves us with a decent amount of wealth in case we need it.

Raichu1972 · Oct 31, 2017

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability,-4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x2
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)

I'm hoping this might influence the King to take further influences next turn, or in some other way show that we want to support the Western Colonies.

VoidZero · Oct 31, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Greenshore supported Western Ymaryn over us in the course of SS crisis: that is, they basically acted as a channel of stuff from us to WY. That's why I think it's deeper problem: even before all that you listed, they were disloyal, statsheet be damned.

Technically some of that can be attributed to rule of gold as our local governors/leaders were getting bribes to keep their mouth shut and then enabling the practice when they noticed we weren't paying attention. So as long as the subsidiary states doesn't pick up more different ideas?

drake_azathoth · Oct 31, 2017

While it's unsurprising to see voters come up with twisted reasoning to justify land as belonging to the King as opposed to being collectively owned by the Ymaryn, that is not really the legal precedent and the fact we've NEVER distributed land stands against it. Precedent suggests the land does NOT belong to the king, and he has no right to issue it or revoke it.

The logical precedent suggests the land belongs to the Ymaryn collectively, not the king. If the western Ymaryn decide they need a different king to decide what's done with their land and resources they aren't 'stealing it' from our king. They've worked that land literally for generations, they're Ymaryn rather than foreign conquerors, and if their current administrator sucks donkey balls it's understandable they think getting a new one makes sense.

Now, I don't want to let our Western colonies go, but I'd prefer that to some halfassed political revisionism that says land belongs to the king alone or otherwise spits on Ymaryn values.

George · Oct 31, 2017

Alratan said:
Just a couple of turns back people were willing to risk the complete annihilation of the Ymaryn to keep the eastern subordinates. I find it curious that there's such unwillingness to invest in the western ones

What? No, we took the fight to the nomads to slow them down and get some more time. The chance that we got annihilated was not very high there; the chance we fell apart due to stability issues if we didn't was higher IMO.

Alratan said:
Given that the nomads were attacking the core within that phase, we were risking the complete annihilation of the Ymaryn. We were lucky enough to hit a three in ten thousand chance. Just because you win at a game like Russian Roulette doesn't make having played it sensible.

Hitting a 3 in ten thousand chance doesn't mean that that was the only way we could win.

Rakuhn · Oct 31, 2017

Wait. Why are people willing to risk another nomad horde led by a heroic martial king so soon after the last one? We still don't have cavalry parity and our banners are still weak. Greenshore and Tinriver put together are not nearly as much of an existential threat to our polity. The worst they can do is secede. A nomad hero can kill the Thunder Horse, ravage the Txolla, enslave our people, and tear down our cities. And he'll only get stronger with each success.

Abby Normal · Oct 31, 2017

drake_azathoth said:
While it's unsurprising to see voters come up with twisted reasoning to justify land as belonging to the King as opposed to being collectively owned by the Ymaryn, that is not really the legal precedent and the fact we've NEVER distributed land stands against it. Precedent suggests the land does NOT belong to the king, and he has no right to issue it or revoke it.

The logical precedent suggests the land belongs to the Ymaryn collectively, not the king. If the western Ymaryn decide they need a different king to decide what's done with their land and resources they aren't 'stealing it' from our king. They've worked that land literally for generations, they're Ymaryn rather than foreign conquerors, and if their current administrator sucks donkey balls it's understandable they think getting a new one makes sense.

Now, I don't want to let our Western colonies go, but I'd prefer that to some halfassed political revisionism that says land belongs to the king alone or otherwise spits on Ymaryn values.

The precedent per word of AN is that the land belongs to the Gods, and the king is their representative, actually:

Academia Nut said:
Technically the gods own the land and all the things within and gave it to the People to tend to, with the king being the representative of the gods and the People who then assigns administrators and so on and so forth down the social hierarchy. Very, very technically speaking there is no such thing as inheritance. However, it is fully expected that children will be assigned the same lands and goods as their parents barring some major event.

So them appointing a new king would if anything be a declaration of...maybe not a holy war, but it would definitely be a religious argument, not just "this is our land, we'll work it better", but "your king is not the true king, they do not represent the gods wishes!" or the like

bluefur87 · Oct 31, 2017

Rakuhn said:
Wait. Why are people willing to risk another nomad horde led by a heroic martial king so soon after the last one? We still don't have cavalry parity. Greenshore and Tinriver put together are not nearly as much of an existential threat to our polity. The worst they can do is secede. A nomad hero can kill the Thunder Horse, ravage the Txolla, enslave our people, and tear down our cities. And he'll only get stronger with each success.

Well he seems more focused on trade for starters. War is kinda bad for trade, I'd imagine he's willing to trade with us still, and we're sitting on the doorstep to a crises.

There's also the fact that what comes in second matters, so if the second Main Influence comes up close and our king is still alive next turn he'll be more likely to pay attention to what we wanted to do.

Paths of Civilization

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Finds writing poorly easy

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

High Clerk of the Ymaryn