Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
Citino said:
Well, I mean, if you can provide an argument that is convincing enough for me to trust you over 2 admin heroes, sure.

But considering our current admin hero went with the forest policy over infrastructure, despite knowing that we were about to get some more forests from Gulvalley, you're going to need a really convincing argument to make me believe in our plan over the admin hero's plan.

Edit: Unless you meant that we keep our current forest policies and throw the next city granted policy into infrastructure, in which case, maybe?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If we're using the guild slots for planting instead of for, say, glassworks, then the only drain on forests in the near future will be the in progress baths, leaving us with a 4 forest buffer. Meanwhile, we are not doing well on cent tolerance leeway, being 2 cent away from overcentralization, or 4 once we get the PSN cent loss from this vote. So if all our cities activated again, we'd immediately go to overcentralization, and thats assuming we dont build roads or enforce justice, both of which we'd like to do. As such, the government advance is very valuable, and requires either 2 mains of our own actions, or 8 progress from policies, being much more efficient as policy actions than as ours. Plus we have 3 progress left on the bath that they'll take before anything else, and 6 progress of market we'd like in the near future, both for wealth generation and the quest. Getting that done with progress instead of our own actions is much cheaper than doing it with policies, where the opposite is true for forest policies, which eat our EE and make it more likely to make cities happen, while infrastructure policies are unlikely to make city thresholds increase until after the gov increase at most (since the baths and market are for a free city and so dont affect thresholds). For that matter, getting the gov advance will let us have invested actions and finally switch to using that for forests instead of policies, so we aren't draining EE and missing out on forest tech.

HeWhoAdds said:
I'm willing to vote for dropping forestry in favor of Infrastructure if we get something like the invested action mechanic that was discussed earlier in the thread, so that we can ensure there's a continuing commitment to increasing our forest reserves. Otherwise, I'm skeptical that we'll be able to keep ahead of demand for forests. Actions are already extremely tight.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I believe AN has said we'll get that mechanic with the new government advance from the patricians quest, and taking more infrastructure policies will speed that quest up; two more policies would get it half done in a single turn, assuming redshore uses its policies on finishing the baths again.
 
2xMachina said:
Eh, we have tons of extra forest at the moment. A whole 5 slots.

And with no forestry, and Expand forest instead, our EE will be high enough, that there's less cities, requiring less baths.

2xForestry to 1xExpand Forest gives a net of +2EE.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It feels unsightly to me that we are at {36}/34, and we know that in the future we are going to find more uses for forests.
 
Last edited:
Candesce said:
Do we have the wealth for that?

Especially if we're going to be Influencing, too?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sorry; not next turn. The turn after next. :oops:

George said:
I'm scared of the stability and legitimacy consequences of letting all of them go at once. Tinriver and Amber Road I'm not concerned about. Greenshore ehh I could go either way, I'm not sure what the situation is regarding whether we can keep Western Wall and lose Greenshore.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think anyone is talking about losing Amber Road; I strongly doubt that it wants to be independent right now. It is a trading post, not a colony.
 
Guys if we lose land it will not just be a one time loss of stability, we will keep bleeding stability and possibly legitimacy as long as we are not actively fighting to regain said land... for who knows how long. Remember how the Hathayn killed themselves against us? This is why, they too had a gardener-derived trait.
 
Kiba said:
It feels unsightly to me that we are at {36}/34, and we know that in the future we are going to find more uses for forests.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
{36}/34 isn't the relevant number, though, its 29/34, unless you expect our kilns to suddenly all shut down or something? And i don't think anyone's arguing that we won't need more forests in the future. Specifically, we're arguing that we are secure enough for the next 2 or 3 turns to shut off the policies for infrastructure, specifically in order to get a government advance that 1. will head off a major administrative issue in the form of cent cap, 2. likely improve other things, and 3. provide a new mechanic (invested actions) that will give us a strictly superior way of generating forests than policies. The only forest needs we'll have in the next couple turns are finishing the in progress baths (1 forest used), and probably some glassworks or porcelein works, assuming we dont just keep planting goods for our guild actions. Our policies will focus on the great halls for the gov upgrade and/or the market for the free megaproject before they focus on more baths or ironworks, so more infrastructure policies won't make our forest situation worse. We'll lose out on a couple turns of forest policies, in exchange for getting invested actions and the grand bazaar faster, without spending our own stats on the infrastructure to get them (or at least spending fewer of our own stats, depending on if we want to speed things up)
 
Kiba said:
It feels unsightly to me that we are at {36}/34, and we know that in the future we are going to find more uses for forests.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
so... you're opposed to getting any use whatsoever from kilns?
DragonParadox said:
Guys if we lose land it will not just be a one time loss of stability, we will keep bleeding stability and possibly legitimacy as long as we are not actively fighting to regain said land... for who knows how long. Remember how the Hathayn killed themselves against us? This is why, they too had a gardener-derived trait.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think that's strong enough evidence for your claim.
 
Last edited:
@Academia Nut - according to our Admin Hero king, what would be the consequences of losing our western colonies?

Would the core erupt into turmoil and instability? Would the news just pass silently, with merely some one-time grumbling? Something in between?
 
Anyways. Based on what I've seen on the thread so far I think I can safely make a note on our problems and actions that should be taken to fix them. That said, I am reasonably sure we have our Admin/Mystic Hero for at least one more turn, so I'm not really eager to set up a list of things we need to do for now. That said, I do remember they tend to listen to what we want them to do, so...

Oh great @Academia Nut Carry the voice of this humble spirit to the king that rules over our people so that it may guide him and provide him insight in these troubled times!

Right mate, so The Garden of your people has three major problems to deal with, though one of them is stalled for long enough that you can probably afford to make notable headway on the other two before it pops up again. Still, there is an opportunity to make progress on it that it would be nice if you got behind. This is some friendly advice on what you need to focus on.

The Three Crises

Government Organization (Most important)
-Reform Government
--Complete Patrician Quest (4 Grand Hall Annexes)
-Establish Better Communications (Pick 2)
--Better Roads
---Double Main Roads
--Better Boats
---Lots of Docks
--Better Horses
---??? Maybe Stable Annex or Spirit Bonded
--Bonus (Does not count in general, but does help greatly)
---Lowland Water Passage (Lowland Dam and Canal)
-Ensure Subrodinate Loyalty
--Influence Subordinate Actions
--Vassal Support Passive
-Integrate Subordinates (Requires Government Reform and Better Communications to be fufilled)

Nomad Threat (Close Second in terms of importance)
-Gain Large Ammounts of Light Cavalry
-Establish Diplomatic Relations with Friendly Nomads
-Grow Trees, All the Trees
-Build Colossal Walls
-Triangle Canal

Liquidity (Stalled)
-End Goal: Central Banking and Paper Money (A long ways away from actually dealing with)
--Complete Quest to gain Grand Bazaar Megaproject
--Gain Markets in general
--Increase Connectivity and Trade
-Means of Stalling:
--Gain Precious Metals (Preferable)
---Gain more land
---Survey
--Devalue Currency
---Reactionary Action, Crises may have triggered by now if this comes to pass

There is also the general upkeep to make sure The Garden stays nice and clean, so keep that in mind and don't get too mono focused here.
 
Last edited:
Kiba said:
I never said that. I just like more surplus forests. I don't feel safe with our numbers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
{36} being higher than /34 will always be true when we're getting use out of our kilns. If you want more surplus, then say that you don't feel good about 29/34, or if you just want more forests say 34 is too low.
 
I'm against giving up any of our Western Colonies.

Western Wall is the most influential of our colonies, with a Governors Palace and a True City.

Influencing them should be the start of getting them into line.

Getting Greenshore as well would be great, since that would all but assure tinshore not seceding, but we can do Greenshore next turn as well.

The colonies give us Econ, and provide us Martial in war, and provide us trade power on the Black Sea.

They are useful as semi autonomous parts of our nation.

Them grumbling is not a reason to let them go, it's a reason to remind them that they should stay with us.

The fact that our free cities went on vassal support shows that the Ymaryn want to keep the Western Colonies as well, and will likely be quite upset if we just let them go.

They would also be more likely to ally with the Western Ymaryn than us if they still happen to be alive.

On the mechanics side, we would once again have a neighbors that Econ vamps us through refugees, which is annoying and not something that we want.

We would lose 3 Econ income a turn.

We would have a competing trade power on the Black Sea.

So, TLDR: I think it's worthwhile to keep all of our colonies.
 
Katsuragi said:
Did it mention what we actually employeed to get the disease down to a manageable background thing?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Quarantine.

On an unrelated topic, the timeline still call the Horseman's Plague event the Iron Age Collapse. Three civilizations had fallen apart, quite violently and suddenly, but the brightest light of humanity did not burned out. Quite the opposite, really.

So should it still be Iron Age Collapse or do we want to change the name for it?

Or are we getting ahead of ourselves? We still don't know if the Khemetri and Freehills, and other nations survive. Presumably, Harmurri and HK are still alive.
 
Kiba said:
Quarantine.

On an unrelated topic, the timeline still call the Horseman's Plague event the Iron Age Collapse. Three civilizations had fallen apart, quite violently and suddenly, but the brightest light of humanity did not burned out. Quite the opposite, really.

So should it still be Iron Age Collapse or do we want to change the name for it?

Or are we getting ahead of ourselves? We still don't know if the Khemetri and Freehills, and other nations survive. Presumably, Harmurri and HK are still alive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We're getting ahead of ourselves. I don't think the Khemtri fell, and I'd wouldn't be surprised if Freehills survived on some level. We need to take stock of what our neighbors were up to soon.
 
Susano said:
Oh sure, if we can. But I'd rather be opposed to "keeping" them by sending military expeditions, for example.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I would prefer to not do so, but if it's necessary I would bring them in line militarily over letting them go.

Lord's Loyalty goes both ways.
Just as we support and protect our colonies, they assist and serve us.

They are already stressing my patience by dragging their feet on the food taxes and the whole Second Sons bullshit, so if they try and leave after we explicitly help them I will be for bringing them back in by force.
 
PrimalShadow said:
I have a question for you guys. Is rehabilitating our subordinates at this point really worth it?

Lets say that we get off lightly, and it costs us a Main Influence + Main Support on each of them. That is a total of (18+8)*3=78 stat points, and 6 Main actions on top of that.

In contrast, building up our Spiritbonded from 3 to FIFTEEN would cost 6 Mains and a net total of 72 stats.
Taking a Build Roads secondary every turn for twelve turn would cost us the equivalent of 6 Main actions and 24 stats.
Building up our Watchtower network from 35% to 100% would cost 6 Main actions, 1 Secondary, and 7 stat points.

Hell, 78 stats is enough for 8-12 different golden age innovations.




So I ask you: is it actually worth it? Especially considering that, all said and done, a single Main Support + Main Influence might not even entirely fix the issue?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Consider the current state of affairs from the perspective of these colonies:
  • We have demonstrated an unwillingness to punish them during the Second Sons Crisis, so the colonies think the core won't punish them.
  • The king has no navy and is attempting to recover from an apocalyptic plague, so they think that he can't punish them.
  • And the king now wants them to start giving him food, so they think they'll be better off ignoring him and feeding themselves.
Now, that's not necessarily accurate, but I believe this is what they're thinking and why they're being so difficult right now.

If so, we need to impress upon them that yes, we will punish them, we can punish them, and that if they try to sneak off that it will end very badly for them. More Warships / More Spiritbonded / More Roads is the most obvious answer, and the Big Red Button that we have beyond that is the Terrify option, if we can use that against our subordinates. But we have to be willing to back all that up. If we have the largest army in the world, but refuse to use it against our colonies, then it will not make them any more compliant, and if our words are just bluster we'll be in a nasty bind if they call our bluff.

Basically, if we are not willing or able to fight a civil war to keep our colonies, they will eventually leave, and if we let colonies slip away without punishment, we should expect repeat performances from other vassals.

In light of that...

PrimalShadow said:
I have a question for you guys. Is rehabilitating our subordinates at this point really worth it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes. We can't afford not to. If we don't clamp down on this issue, it will start more fires.
 
Raichu1972 said:
I would prefer to not do so, but if it's necessary I would bring them in line militarily over letting them go.

Lord's Loyalty goes both ways.
Just as we support and protect our colonies, they assist and serve us.

They are already stressing my patience by dragging their feet on the food taxes and the whole Second Sons bullshit, so if they try and leave after we explicitly help them I will be for bringing them back in by force.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Agreed. We do not need PSoD's con firing on us.
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Expand Palace (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [React] Expand fleet (Main More Warships)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Hemp (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

I don't really see why bribing them would make them more compliant.
More centralized control (Palace) + threat of force (warships) sounds more effective.
But if the influence wins I won't be terribly unhappy.
 
Last edited:
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
Raichu1972 said:
Lord's Loyalty goes both ways.
Just as we support and protect our colonies, they assist and serve us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's a social contract. One that they might to cancel. In which case you don't need to complain about us helping them, either.

DragonParadox said:
Agreed. We do not need PSoD's con firing on us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If this triggers it. The land would still be cared for by Ymaryn after all, just Ymaryn outside of the King's control - that is how we've defined the Western Ymaryn so far, after all.
 
@PrimalShadow

I don't know if you have already seen it and I just missed it being mentioned, but:

+1 Tech Refund/2 palaces,

From the Megaproject tab.

So that puts Governors Palaces (and roads with them) further ahead on our Do Want list, I think.

So with the two Palaces we already have, we have 2 Tech Refund and a +1 drip. Absorbing WW and Greenshore would add another if we don't build another two palaces in the Lowlands. But a refund of two is already substantial, I think, as only Expand Econ really devours it at a big rate.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top