Yeah. Though to be fair, it makes sense: Iron means econ is the last thing we are going to have problems generating.
(At least until we inevitably run out of tech...)
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
(At least until we inevitably run out of tech...)
I have a question for you guys. Is rehabilitating our subordinates at this point really worth it?
Lets say that we get off lightly, and it costs us a Main Influence + Main Support on each of them. That is a total of (18+8)*3=78 stat points, and 6 Main actions on top of that.
In contrast, building up our Spiritbonded from 3 to FIFTEEN would cost 6 Mains and a net total of 72 stats.
Taking a Build Roads secondary every turn for twelve turn would cost us the equivalent of 6 Main actions and 24 stats.
Building up our Watchtower network from 35% to 100% would cost 6 Main actions, 1 Secondary, and 7 stat points.
Hell, 78 stats is enough for 8-12 different golden age innovations.
So I ask you: is it actually worth it? Especially considering that, all said and done, a single Main Support + Main Influence might not even entirely fix the issue?
Lets say that we get off lightly, and it costs us a Main Influence + Main Support on each of them. That is a total of (18+8)*3=78 stat points, and 6 Main actions on top of that.
In contrast, building up our Spiritbonded from 3 to FIFTEEN would cost 6 Mains and a net total of 72 stats.
Taking a Build Roads secondary every turn for twelve turn would cost us the equivalent of 6 Main actions and 24 stats.
Building up our Watchtower network from 35% to 100% would cost 6 Main actions, 1 Secondary, and 7 stat points.
Hell, 78 stats is enough for 8-12 different golden age innovations.
So I ask you: is it actually worth it? Especially considering that, all said and done, a single Main Support + Main Influence might not even entirely fix the issue?
- Location
- Austria
It would have been worth it ~20 turns ago, before situation became bad. Prevention cheaper than cure and all.
But "one more turn wont hurt" syndrom has led us to the point where letting them go might be easier, even considering LL and PSN, cause damage of drift is done.
I think keeping WW is worth it for their iron and continuous land making it more manageable, not sure about other too.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
It looks like the alternate being negative triggering of our our traits and leading to civil war. So it's kinda like second son crisis? I think at this point we can all agree to not have anymore colonies, as their danger is now on display.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Subordinates we control take actions that benefit us, acquiring provinces, building up True cities, expanding forests into the steppes. Moreover, we're on the cusp of both a Golden Age and a new government level, so we may be able to integrate them fairly soon, assuming we take some admin technology innovations, and that integration will pay back a significant portion of the invested stats and provide us with additional province, king, and guild actions. I'd say it's fairly worthwhile.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Contact closest neighbours (Sec Trade Mission to Freehills and Harmurri)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
We're broke again, so I'm voting to contact our neighbors to try to get our Wealth income up to something slightly reasonable.
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Contact closest neighbours (Sec Trade Mission to Freehills and Harmurri)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
We're broke again, so I'm voting to contact our neighbors to try to get our Wealth income up to something slightly reasonable.
Not sure. No land connection, we're not planning on integrating them anytime soon, we wouldn't have to care the next time they decide to get into a fight with the Storm Tribes...
But we're likely to take stability and legitimacy and prestige hits for letting them go.
Fixing the legitimacy and stability is probably easier than keeping them around, but if we do let them loose they're likely to go off on their own and do stupid stuff.
I'd be happier keeping them if we'd invested more in our navy. As we haven't, well, we're going to be suffering significantly more cultural divergence, and defending them from the inevitable nomad invasion is going to be that much more painful.
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Kinda-sorta. Subordinates we control take actions that satisfy their purpose, which may or may not benefit us. Colonies in particular take a bunch of land development actions (new settlements, walls, roads, forests, cities, etc.), which are absolutely wonderful if we are planning to integrate the land, but kinda useless if we aren't.
(For reference, I made a compilation of subordinate actions about a week back; feel free to take a look.)
If we can integrate them and gain the benefit of those invested actions, then yes, you are absolutely correct. Especially since stats invested with Support Subordinate and Influence Subordinate mostly go to the subordinate and not just disappear, so if they can put it to good use improving the land further that is yet more reason to keep them around.
The problem is, I very much suspect we won't be at the point of integrating our Western colonies anytime soon.
For one thing, we don't currently have the room. It is possible that our gov't improvement will free up space for more colonies, but it is possible that it won't, or won't free up much. Even if it does free up room, it would have to free up a LOT of room, especially since we are thinking of integrating Txolla.
For another thing, we literally can't. We've been told that without 2 of better roads/boats/horses, we won't be able to do the integration. We can maybe get better roads, but not for a while; no idea how we can get better boats or horses any time soon.
Time.
Also, a stables annex or two, maybe more docks. Expanding the Navy might help.
I guess they will; but they will also go off and do their own SMART things, no? I expect them to independently depend against the nomads, and to help us protect the Sea from pirates, and to bring us Diplo income by participating in the games.
I think we are going to be going up to 4 Naval next turn, since we probably want to do the Trader Quest and it will give us a bonus Naval.
One silver lining about potential invasions: at least if they get invaded, their loyalty will go back up in return for our help.
I don't think it is that bad.
At least PSN shouldn't be dinged hard here, since it is still People taking care of the land, even if they don't answer to the King. Lord's Loyalty might make us pretty sad though, yeah.
It shouldn't come to Civil War. Or rather, I expect us to get a choice of having a civil war, but also a choice to just let them go peacefully.
Do we have the wealth for that?
Especially if we're going to be Influencing, too?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The colony I'd most like to keep is Western Wall. Tinriver and Greenshore going their own way would be difficult, but manageable, and I like the idea of more Ymaryn spreading westwards. But Western Wall terminates at the natural barrier of the mountains and they have land continuity with us, keeping them is both easier than the other two and beneficial for our long-term goals.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm scared of the stability and legitimacy consequences of letting all of them go at once. Tinriver and Amber Road I'm not concerned about. Greenshore ehh I could go either way, I'm not sure what the situation is regarding whether we can keep Western Wall and lose Greenshore.
- Location
- Illinois
Well, I mean, if you can provide an argument that is convincing enough for me to trust you over 2 admin heroes, sure.
But considering our current admin hero went with the forest policy over infrastructure, despite knowing that we were about to get some more forests from Gulvalley, you're going to need a really convincing argument to make me believe in our plan over the admin hero's plan.
Edit: Unless you meant that we keep our current forest policies and throw the next city granted policy into infrastructure, in which case, maybe?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Amber Road is more likely to be wiped out completely than they are to go their own way, I think. Trading posts tend to know they need us, while colonies not so much.
You have to keep in mind they can prove hostile once border disputes start to erupt.
Sure, they seem like a pain, now, but once they become their own polity they have a strong chance of being someone who starts doing strategic maneuvers against us or being the source of new troubles due to not being able to handle whatever crises of their own they will spawn. This is still prevention in a sense, and it's probably both way cheaper and more beneficial to get them here than to deal with the crap they'll spawn later.
Roads is probably going to be the easiest thing to do near term. We should really aim to do a double main roads sometime in the near future, I know everyone is already on that mindset, but it is the most likely to work. Other than that Build Docks is a good idea.
Edit: Actually looking at it, Build Docks is the easiest potential boost near term.
Sure, they seem like a pain, now, but once they become their own polity they have a strong chance of being someone who starts doing strategic maneuvers against us or being the source of new troubles due to not being able to handle whatever crises of their own they will spawn. This is still prevention in a sense, and it's probably both way cheaper and more beneficial to get them here than to deal with the crap they'll spawn later.
Roads is probably going to be the easiest thing to do near term. We should really aim to do a double main roads sometime in the near future, I know everyone is already on that mindset, but it is the most likely to work. Other than that Build Docks is a good idea.
Edit: Actually looking at it, Build Docks is the easiest potential boost near term.
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Part of the reason why our LTE is so low is....
you guessed it. Forestry Policy.
It chews through our LTE, causing more urbanization than Infrastructure policy.
I just hope we get the government reorg soon so that we can have simplified mechanics. I'm finding the mechanics a bit hard to grasp, given modest involvement.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Yes and we are now buring through our forest stock with all the iron and baths. So it's paying off. Mills will give LTE if we have wealth for it.
Eh, we have tons of extra forest at the moment. A whole 5 slots.
And with no forestry, and Expand forest instead, our EE will be high enough, that there's less cities, requiring less baths.
2xForestry to 1xExpand Forest gives a net of +2EE.
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- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
I'm willing to vote for dropping forestry in favor of Infrastructure if we get something like the invested action mechanic that was discussed earlier in the thread, so that we can ensure there's a continuing commitment to increasing our forest reserves. Otherwise, I'm skeptical that we'll be able to keep ahead of demand for forests. Actions are already extremely tight.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thing is, we're going to spend actions doing infrastructure if we don't change policies, and then further actions to recover the stats we spent on infrastructure.