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Paths of Civilization

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Citino said:
The yeomen are likely disproportionately present in the military compared to the farmers, so while they may only be 10% of the farmers, due to their higher martial bent and greater resources, they are far more likely to join the military than a poor farmer would. Not to mention second sons of yeomen would be far more inclined to join the military than sons of poor farmers.

Not to mention that the rural population is, what, 90% of our total population? So 10% of that still means that 9% of our population is yeomen, which I believe is quite enough to produce enough second sons to outfit the military needs of the ymaryn alone, at least during peace times.

Also, most evidence points to the patricians holding the vast majority of command positions. There are almost certainly some yeomen in positions of command, but it is unlikely to be a large percent of the total command class.

Compared to removing a large number of yeomen from the armed forces, changing the officer corp doesn't seem nearly as effective.

Then again, I can barely tell how these reforms will be put into practice, so...
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Most of our armed forces are conscripts. Poor farmers and urban poor alike.

Sauce for that
Academia Nut said:
The bulk of the enemy forces were obvious conscripts and militia - somewhat similar to his own - and the bulk of his forces had reaped a terrible toll upon them as they had done upon his forces, but the hard core of their warriors remained strong.
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Yeomen second sons are not conscripts they are the elite warriors that spend their time training.

Even in peace time, especially in peace time, Yeomanry will not be making up the bulk of our forces.

Second point is also not necessarily true
Academia Nut said:
Patricians

The patricians occupy their position in society through a combination of network contacts, managerial competence (that they hoard obsessively), and the ability influence enormous amounts of resources both personally and through their positions in society. As such, the raising of their children is a massive concern to them. The first two male children are typically educated similarly, the so called "heir and the spare", with both receiving extensive education in literacy, administrative mathematics, general physical education and basic combat skill, and most importantly introduction to the extensive network of social contacts that make up the core of the patrician power base. Third and fourth sons are typically encouraged to make a deeper study of the martial arts, particularly of elite skills like chariot archery, so that they might make new contacts among the warriors and have a fast track up the social ladder should they prove proficient.
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Yes they hold the majority of command positions but third and fourth sons are elite warriors. Adding in girls to that system means that there are suddenly a lot of third sons suddenly appearing.

Where before partricians may have two sons and one daughter as "heir and the spare" and marriage chip respectively, pushing forth the Harmysyn reform means they now have a heir(first son) a spare(first daughter), and a third son that will be another elite warrior.

All of a sudden all these partricians that had two or three sons, now have three to four "sons" that become more elite warriors.

This means that the roles Yeomanry used to fill are now being filled up by the Particians and they are a lot harder to compete against. That means reduced martial significance and thus reduced political power.
 
Carrnage said:
Inserted tally
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Boo!

Cleaner Tally >.>
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4479 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 111975-112585]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: Iron
[67][Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[6][Iron] Gain an additional Social Value slot
[3][Iron] Gain the Steel Fist Legacy
[2][Iron] Gain at least two additional metalworking techs (Exploding dice)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Reform
[37][Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[31][Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[28][Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[1][Reform] Ignore Both
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: PiA
[28][PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[19][PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[12][PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
[12][PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
[2][PiA] Nomads (Honour Code)
[1][PiA] Mountain Horse (Probably an Honour Code)
[1][PiA] Storm Tribes (Probably an Honour Code)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: GA
[39][GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[25][GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[22][GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
[4][GA] Begin Great Dam megaproject in independent action track (-10 Wealth)
[1][GA] New materials tech (-10 Tech)
[1][GA] Administrative innovation
Total No. of Voters: 86
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
What's the current tally?
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Basically, everything's still possible aside from the Ironworks upgrade, since going from +3 to +4 econ/action is a pretty massive boost.
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4479 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 111975-112585]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

Task: Iron

[67][Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[6][Iron] Gain an additional Social Value slot
[3][Iron] Gain the Steel Fist Legacy
[2][Iron] Gain at least two additional metalworking techs (Exploding dice)

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Reform

[37][Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[31][Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[28][Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[1][Reform] Ignore Both

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: PiA

[28][PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[19][PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[12][PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
[12][PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
[2][PiA] Nomads (Honour Code)
[1][PiA] Mountain Horse (Probably an Honour Code)
[1][PiA] Storm Tribes (Probably an Honour Code)

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: GA

[39][GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[25][GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[22][GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
[4][GA] Begin Great Dam megaproject in independent action track (-10 Wealth)
[1][GA] New materials tech (-10 Tech)
[1][GA] Administrative innovation

Total No. of Voters: 86
edit: blackbird'd
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
 
Sivantic said:
Most of our armed forces are conscripts. Poor farmers and urban poor alike.

Sauce for that
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That was in the middle of one of our biggest war efforts, well, ever. My understanding is that we have a standing force of warriors, and then we have the additional force of conscripts. What we are planning on reforming is that standing force of warriors, which the yeomen currently make uo a significant part of.

Though I honestly don't know enough about our current force composition to state that definitively, so maybe you're right.

@Academia Nut can we get a brief overview on the current nature of our military? Specifically how the yeomen are being used in it right now?
 
notgreat said:
Basically, everything's still possible aside from the Ironworks upgrade, since going from +3 to +4 econ/action is a pretty massive boost.
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4479 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 111975-112585]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

Task: Iron

[67][Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[6][Iron] Gain an additional Social Value slot
[3][Iron] Gain the Steel Fist Legacy
[2][Iron] Gain at least two additional metalworking techs (Exploding dice)


Task: Reform

[37][Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[31][Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[28][Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[1][Reform] Ignore Both


Task: PiA

[28][PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[19][PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[12][PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
[12][PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
[2][PiA] Nomads (Honour Code)
[1][PiA] Mountain Horse (Probably an Honour Code)
[1][PiA] Storm Tribes (Probably an Honour Code)


Task: GA

[39][GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[25][GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[22][GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
[4][GA] Begin Great Dam megaproject in independent action track (-10 Wealth)
[1][GA] New materials tech (-10 Tech)
[1][GA] Administrative innovation

Total No. of Voters: 86
edit: blackbird'd
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Okay, thanks.

[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X][PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
 
Glassware said:
If we tie on the reforms, do we automatically implement the "both" option, or just get nothing done?
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We go boom?

I can guess that AN either does a coin flip, nothing gets done and a shit load of resources are spent for nothing including stability, or we get both. The last one leaves us an inch or so from death, and I am pretty sure the second one just means we get sucked away to nothing.

If he wants to be sadistic he can leave it totally up to a roll as to which he would do. Beyond all that rampant head burning though I can say with complete confidence it is a terrible idea, and if someone wants to do so intentionally they should seriously reconsider some choices they've made up to now.
 
Citino said:
Probably not, since both is already another option. Most likely we'd get some really weird narrative effect like trying to do a compromise, like creating women led urban poor regiments or something.
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*imagines the clusterfuck that could spawn from that*

Owwwwwww... and I'm not complaining about it being women here either, that entire scenario sounds like it is fully possible for untrained commanders of both genders to be in the lead of squads because of political compromise bullarky. I.e its a complete trainwreck.
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
 
BungieONI said:
Sadly that just shows for me in the spoiler.

And I am not on my phone, but my computer which used to be able to view these images.
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Alright how about this
mymap
Citino said:
That was in the middle of one of our biggest war efforts, well, ever. My understanding is that we have a standing force of warriors, and then we have the additional force of conscripts. What we are planning on reforming is that standing force of warriors, which the yeomen currently make uo a significant part of.

Though I honestly don't know enough about our current force composition to state that definitively, so maybe you're right.

@Academia Nut can we get a brief overview on the current nature of our military? Specifically how the yeomen are being used in it right now?
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History disagrees.

It takes waaay to much effort to produce a single warrior for most of our numbers to be professional warriors. Like seriously, you need something like a hundred people to allow one person not to focus on farming.

Here is what we know about Yeomanry
Academia Nut said:
Yeomanry


The "rural middle class" that dominates much of the population is most concerned with the maintenance of their land and ensuring that all of their children will have good farms of their own when they grow up. Since children are often farmhands and the eldest will typically take over the current farm to care for their parents in old age, this means that one of the biggest concerns of the yeomanry is ensuring that the People as a whole have more land to be settled. For very large and successful families, this typically means that some of their younger children will have to seek work elsewhere. Sometimes their parents will be able to arrange an apprenticeship with a skilled artisan, but at a certain number of children the younger ones will simply have to find their own way, migrating to the cities. Aside from farming, the yeomanry also highly prize the skills of hunters in general and the art of the bow in particular. While a point of pride and a means of defending their holdings from hostile wildlife and outsiders, more than a few of the yeomanry also see the bow as a way to get ahead in life. At its least dark this amounts to using their martial skills to become skilled warriors for the People in general, while at its most dark it becomes a form of banditry. On occasion entire trade caravans will disappear, the locals blaming bad weather. While often difficult to prove, this is usually caused by a village turning bandit - often prompted by their local leadership having some sort of dispute with the caravan.
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We have lots of farmers but only the large and wealthy families can send their kids to different professions. Typical warrior is Longbowman as such that require "start from grandfather" as mentioned earlier. This is a lot of dedicated time that only they can manage. Everything else we have our conscripts due to our Quality of it's Own value line

Quality of It's Own
The People are well served by having a large contingent of warriors, although these warriors are also drawn in part from the labouring classes, such that losses can negatively affect productivity
Pros: Gain +1/3 of Econ as bonus Martial
Cons: Damage to Martial can carry over to Econ (additional damage from Honour of Elites does not count)
=>We Have Reserves
The People are well served by having a large contingent of warriors, although these warriors are also drawn in part from the labouring classes, such that losses can negatively affect productivity
Pros: Gain +1/3 of Econ as bonus Martial, chance of negating Martial (and thus Econ) damage dependent upon Econ strength
Cons: Damage to Martial can carry over to Econ (additional damage from Honour of Elites does not count)
=>Swords and Ploughshares
Farmers can fight in wars, the marching of armies can pound out roads, and axes are good for splitting wood and skulls.
Pros: Gain +1/3 of Econ as bonus Martial, chance of negating Martial (and thus Econ) damage dependent upon Econ strength, increased power of Raise Army and Retraining
Cons: Damage to Martial can carry over to Econ (additional damage from Honour of Elites does not count)

Most of our warriors are going to come from labouring classes e.g. the untaught masses

i.e conscripts
 
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