- Location
- Hell
...
Point is!
Yeomen are elite warriors.
Partricians are elite warriors.
More of one, means less political power for the other.
vote Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
*confetti*
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Point is!
Yeomen are elite warriors.
Partricians are elite warriors.
More of one, means less political power for the other.
vote Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
*confetti*
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
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- She/Her
We can certainly hope, though I personally doubt, for reasons I have already covered, that the Harmysyn reforms event chain will have as much impact on Second Son once it is complete as the Myranyn, instead focusing its energies to an entirely different problem.
*shrug* For now we will keep on living so its really just a case of wait and see.
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- Location
- Illinois
I think you lost me again. Yeomen are decent warriors, but they aren't elites. At least not in the way that a Patricians who has been trained his whole life to fight and command armies is.
Yeomen still spend a good chunk of their time farming, after all. It's just that they also have time and money to train and equip themselves, unlike most other factions.
But the yeomen aren't training to lead, they are training to fight. The Patricians are the ones who learn how to lead armies, and thus they become the officers of the armies. The yeomen are our archers, our reliable fighters that help strengthen our armies.
Yeomen are good fighters in general, and have great advantages with specific tech like longbows, but that doesn't mean that they know how to lead something like a shield wall, or how and when to call up their reserves. The Patricians, on the other hand, would have likely been taught how to do so as part of their childhood training.
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Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
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- Something Clever
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- She/Her
And so long as we're implementing social improvements to risk losing, I agree with that. The problem is that the history of human society is not a steady march toward ever more perfected states of being, and in fact, giving entrenched power structures more time in which to calcify makes it increasingly harder to dismantle them. Obviously other factors (chiefly technology) prohibit the immediate implementation of modern social norms, but if we're not at least making strides in that direction I'm not sure continuity is the best thing for progress.
Note again that this is specifically a rebuttal to the "do nothing, survival at all costs" school of thought and that my opposition to the not!Marian reforms is both less stringent and based in more subjective risk analysis.
- Location
- Illinois
Here's how I see the current factions relation with our military:
Urban Poor:
-Time: None, busy with jobs
-Money: haha, you're kidding, right?
Result: No way to advance into the army currently, barring desperate wars
Poor Farmers:
-Time: A fair bit, as long as the fields don't need tending to
-Money: Nope
Result: Some chances to join the military, but only at the very bottom. Need a shitload of talent and luck to advance
Yeomen:
-Time: Same as poor farmers, maybe slightly more if they can hire poor farmers to work some of their land
-Money: Yep, they've got some. Are middle class, so can afford to equip themselves somewhat
Result: Pretty good chance to join the military, and start off middling level, as they don't need as much rudimentary training. Good chance to move up the ranks when there is an opportunity.
Patricians:
-Time: As much as needed.
-Money: ALL TEH MONEY
Result: They can put a shitload of time and effort into improving themselves before they join up with the military, and have resources to equip themselves with the best of the best. Start high, and smooth sailing from there if they are any good.
So yeomen can do alright right now, but compared to the Patricians? Nope. No competition.
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- Hell
Okay let me try again.
Patricians.
First and Second Son. Heir and Spare. Adminstrators, Leaders, Commanders
Third and Fourth Son. Elite Warriors
Yes the Patricians are the ones that learn how to lead armies, but third and fourth sons are also trained as warriors and archers. Yeomanry have something similar with the first son being heir and the second being a warrior.
Harmysyn Reform increases the number of "sons" a Patrician has and thus increases the number of Elite Warriors i.e. the Archers and Chariot Archers. Those are the same as the Yeomen archers you are talking about.
Patricians have a monopoly on leading, there is no doubt. But the very top of our armed forces on the ground are elite warriors which are the ones that have the time to spend full time in their profession. Those are a mix between Partrician third and fourth sons and Yeomanry second sons+
Harmysyn Reform pushes the ratios closer to the Patricians and thus gives the Yeomen less power.
That is the point. The Yeoman faction currently has enough military, economic and social power to independently wage war and WIN.
This isn't the poor abused pre-serf farmer here. This is the proto-feudal petty lord attacking someone else so he has more land. Remember the feudal lords and serfdom more or less was the descendant of the current yeoman and their subordinate farmers.
And the important part here is that social collapses always moves towards:
-Martial elite. When civil authority and bureaucracy collapses order comes at the point of a sword. This is why warrior elite leaderships are so common, its the natural state for a post-collapse environment.
-Loss of womens' rights and social status. Post collapse civilizations need to greatly increase the birthrate, and the normal civil protections are gone. While at the same time available work becomes much more physically oriented. All this works to push women towards a role revolving around producing lots of children and little else.
-Slavery. So you can't pay people to work because the system is gone, work needs to be done anyway. Just force them.
We got the opportunity pretty much because the Patricians want to replace Yeomen officers with Patrician children officers, but there aren't enough Patrician sons who could be made officers.
While it helps pull military power out of the Yeomens' hands, it also make the Patricians much more militarisitic than they are, since we basically doubled the value of military accomplishments for social advancement.
You know, the part of Rome where the system made it so that if you wanted to get elected you'd best have conquered SOMETHING? Yeah, that. We created that for the Yeomen, and we're now moving our Patricians into the same group
According to AN:
-Overly high Centralization leads to civilization paralysis. Nothing gets done, period
-Our economic model doubles the penalty.
Basically, pray for an Admin Hero, because only they can keep the country running while in that mode.
It's very bad, only our warriors attacking anything they please is even worse.
Not too complex.
Shieldwall or pike hedge forms the front ranks. These would be drawn from the existing Yeomen and low patricians.
Back ranks would be massed crossbowmen firing over the shieldwall. Typically ordered in sets of three, the front row will fire, then crouch to reload, while the next rank cycles.
Basically enemies are faced with a constant rain of missiles at volumes exceeding the yeoman archery volleys, using crossbows which have enough power to punch through the heaviest armor available at the time...and then you have to break through the shieldwall while your back ranks are dying from steel rain.
Theres also a pirate kingdom in there. It used to be within range of Gulvalley but they "went west"Rejoice!
For the Cartographer has returned!
Now with %100 less Trelli!
Looks like Trelli on the map.
He went and created his own quest.
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Assuming he conquers Trelli next turn we need to remember to send their king a trade mission. He seems to be a Naval hero?
Still open.
...
Something something let's actually deal with the crisis. Vote for Myranyn Reforms!
I am too tired to beat the drum for support.
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- Hell
No update on Fridays, considering the last few updates, none on Saturday either
Harmysyn Reforms
wwooooot.
We are here to help!
Vote Harmysyn!
Martial/Naval probably.
Smart one too, since he went for Trell, if he could take the docks intact the next 2 turns would be him reconquesting the Trelli splinter states.
But I doubt we have the actions to spare to care
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- Hell
I honestly do not think we have to do much.
Everyone remember the Lowlands?
This is the new Lowlands and we are going to keep it that way until we can eat it.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
So you are going to put more tangible military power into hands of Partisan and Priests? I can't see any downside with this at all.
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Interesting development in the armor tech, was it always there?
Wonder if hand sized iron plates are possible add-on to our leather armor. Must be less time consuming to make and replace. Lighter too if on the chest area needs covering.
The patricians were always going to get more power out of this:So you are going to put more tangible military power into hands of Partisan and Priests? I can't see any downside with this at all.
-Harmysyn means the Patrician optimal course of action is to go out there, get military victories to raise the standing of their family. This will produce stronger military ties and make for more military adventures in our elites. This is more or less why the Second Sons are invading our neighbors to begin with. We'd just add the Patricians to them.
-Myranyn means the Patrician optimal course of action is to make sure they control the food, wealth and media, so they control the urban poor, so they control the military. This will produce stronger trade and administrative ties, and make for more politics and bureaucracy in our elites. Which is the current status quo to begin with.
So, which do you prefer to encourage?
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- Voidbetweenstars
The optimal course is to raise centralization and then rearranged everything after we get more information on what needs fixing.
Sadly the thread is currently in shiny chase mode.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
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- Anywhere but RL
Anything that stops arming the poor. But the only viable contender is Harmysyn which has fallen out of favor. Do nothing option was dead before it left the drawing board.
The optimal course requires breaking the power of the Yeomen, and the VERY SAME people are objecting to trying to do so as well.
The Yeomen, the rural low nobility, are constantly considered the beleaguered farmers who would become serfs, rather than the landlords who become knights.
The Harmysyn makes the problem worse by making going out to conquer people the best choice for the rich and powerful.
That's how you get Rome expanding until it just dissolved.
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- Voidbetweenstars
We literally do not have enough information on the problems we face to know how to best go about fixing them.
This however is right.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
And the rich and powerful will still want to conquer people because none of these changes cost to them. The Urban Poor will want to advance their career and the viable course is via war. So your point of people want to conquer is moot since it changes nothing at all.
But we do:
-Martial <3 cannot be achieved without destroying our Blackbirds, OR the provinces/cities helpfully raising it.
-Max cent we're already trying for.
Which means we're left with either the Myranyn reforms making one of the conditions easier to meet by moving to a less likely to run off to stab people army, destroying the Yeomen as a political power, or a civil war while we have Martial nothing,
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- Voidbetweenstars
So basically we lose nothing of value? got it.
Which you know they did last turn.
Wrong, on every level:
-The rich and powerful are disincentivized to wage war. Mobilizing the Urban Poor costs them money! Keeping the Urban Poor in training/civil jobs makes money.
-The Urban Poor do not advance career in war. Armies comprised of the urban poor gain nothing in war, they don't get land, they get paid, but this means they don't get paid doing their normal jobs and if they get maimed...well good luck with that.
-The Military elite(full time soldiers, yeomen, elite units) do advance career in war.
As such this is a false equivalency being presented without basis.
At least do some basic google lookup. The urbanites never like war. Only people who gain power from land, which is to say the rural landholders and the military elite, push for military adventurism. Bureaucratic elite dislike war because it makes the logistics complicated and wastes money paying the poor to kill people instead of paying the poor to make more money.
Which means it's an impossible target. Either the provinces will actively work to undo our progress or we destroy something the playerbase wants to keep.
Burning the Yeomen political power works.
- Location
- Austria
Orrr we can sacrifice Blackbirds for the sake of better military complex and rediscover better scouts + police force instead of a bit outdated folks.
Like, the more I think about it, the more it seems than Mar-whoever's reform is designed to be almost what we need - mass conscript army - but designed in a way which gives control over it not to the state, in a nod to historical Marius' reform and its problems.
Granted, we are not giving away land to poor just yet. We probably will give them land of yeomen once we move to break them, because somebody needs to own the niche.