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Paths of Civilization

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Kiba said:
The Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse, but I doubt anybody will tell you that such partial survival is a good thing.

And Western Ymaryn is much less ideal than our, since it was literally found on conquest.
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tbf, the ERE surviving as long as it did preserved the knowledge of Rome long enough for europe to recover and actually get itself into a position to use said knowledge, which then led to the Renaissance. So it wasn't actually a bad thing...
 
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Kiba said:
The Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse, but I doubt anybody will tell you that such partial survival is a good thing.

And Western Ymaryn is much less ideal than our, since it was literally found on conquest.
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The ERE is so much more advanced than our nation, if we collapse than our libraries will start to rot and war will probably burn down a few at the very least
Wiadi said:
Leaving aside the frankly incomprehensible attempt at what I assume to be Ad Hominem tacked onto the end there...

Where, exactly, are you getting the idea that our successors will necessarily be meaningfully worse in all respects? They'll certainly be less powerful, but I don't see backsliding on our social or technological improvements to be a guaranteed consequence.
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Wasn't an ad hominem, I was stating that the things you want the most are going to reverse, just said in an assholish way :p
We don't even have paper yet, our libraries will burn in a civil war or knowledge will be lost, The fact that you think nothing but a bit of size and power will be lost if our nation collapses... just sounds insane
Nvm that the Western guys have Pioneering spirit which IS a tier 1 or 2 trait meaning they lost something else.
 
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Citino said:
I think they probably wanted a good life more than anything. Their choices at the time were either:

A: Become part of the urban poor. Suffer. Probably die of starvation or plague. No real way to advance.
B: Work as a poor farmer for your family. No real way to advance.
C: Risk your life going west, have a good chance of dying, but if you survive you get your own farm and some cool stories to tell your kids.

Adding a chance to join the army as part of the urban poor and work your way up from there means going to the city is now viable. It wouldn't solve all of our problems, but it would reduce the numbers of young folk who feel they need to go west to actually have a chance at living a good life.
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Yep. I think the big here is that the Myranyn reforms make the Urban Poor no longer a near 100% certain dead end, in the literal sense, which improves the lot of the Yeomen and artisans who fall on bad times, but refugees as well.

Not sure what mechanical effects that may have but it is neat to think about.
 
Well, that went better than expected. Kinda. Guess I'll go for this. *collapses*

[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
 
Citino said:
tbf, the ERE surviving as long as it did preserved the knowledge ofRomee long enough for europe to recover and actually get itself into a position to use said knowledge, which then led to the Renaissance. So it wasn't actually a bad thing...
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It was a good thing that the ERE didn't collapse, but it was a bad thing that the WRE collapsed.
 
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Citino said:
Actually, they wanted a good life. Their choices at the time were either:

A: Become part of the urban poor. Suffer. Probably die of starvation or plague. No real way to advance.
B: Work as a poor farmer for your family. No real way to advance.
C: Risk your life going west, have a good chance of dying, but if you survive you get your own farm and some cool stories to tell your kids.

Adding a chance to join the army as part of the urban poor and work your way up from there means going to the city is now viable. It wouldn't solve all of our problems, but it would reduce the numbers of young folk who feel they need to go west to actually have a chance at living a good life.
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I can see where you are coming from, but mercenary companies and higher-end military positions do exist.

But converting the current yeoman warriors model into Urban Poor Army with Partisan as leaders will not make the Yeoman prospects any more attractive, because the conversion removes existing Yeoman positions and puts Yeoman to compete against Urban Poor with the same minor leadership position. Steps backward for Yeoman faction in every way.
 
And hey, that reform also gives upward social mobility to those who have the least of it (well, maybe except half-exiles. How are these guys nowadays anyway?) - Urban Poor! Right now, if they want to advance they are basically locked into trying to find apprenticeship with artisan, and even with all artisan advancement, there's not enough such positions, or try to save money from odd jobs to buy artisan stuff themselves, which is super-fucking hard and would require generations of stable work (Ha-ha). But with the reform they could go into army, get paid good money and actually have a chance to buy a bakery or something in their lifetime, or maybe decide that they love army life and advance there. That is nice, don't you think?
 
Kiba said:
And Western Ymaryn is much less ideal than our, since it was literally found on conquest
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It's system is built upon independent groups of Yeomen conquering patches of land and then banding together. No one tell The Sheep, but it's probably running a Feudal System. Which we players likely could never tolerate.

Also, since the Not!Marian reforms are looking to win and we are obviously going to go after light Cavalry within several centuries we are going to see radically different army systems from East and West. West will likely still use Yeomanry, but backed by Landowner elite Cavalry, whilst we will use Urban Legionaries backer by Patrician Archer Cavalry. That's not even going into the differences in society. West being based around Landowning Conqueres, pretty soon we'll probably see that the only similarities between the two polities in a century is Religion, Love for Nature and a loose sense of brotherhood.
 
Raichu1972 said:
They gained exponentially more wealth and prestige by killing our neighbors and looting our stuff though, so I'm not entirely sure the second sons would have been content with simply fighting some pirates when further glory could be gained elsewhere more easily.
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You're right. They probably did prefer free shit at the cost of stability to the region. Myranyn Reforms are about curtailing their ability to do so with impunity, thus forcing them into more stable paths of advancement.
Adhoc vote count started by 8bitBob on Oct 6, 2017 at 6:16 PM, finished with 524 posts and 83 votes.
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[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded

The current salt explosion has finally made me care enough to vote, if only because seeing people refuse professional armies physically pains me. @PrimalShadow deserves all the comfort he can get.
 
McLuvin said:
It's system is built upon independent groups of Yeomen conquering patches of land and then banding together. No one tell The Sheep, but it's probably running a Feudal System. Which we players likely could never tolerate.

Also, since the Not!Marian reforms are looking to win and we are obviously going to go after light Cavalry within several centuries we are going to see radically different army systems from East and West. West will likely still use Yeomanry, but backed by Landowner elite Cavalry, whilst we will use Urban Legionaries backer by Patrician Archer Cavalry. That's not even going into the differences in society. West being based around Landowning Conqueres, pretty soon we'll probably see that the only similarities between the two polities in a century is Religion, Love for Nature and a loose sense of brotherhood.
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AND VAMPIRISM! Can't forget that.

It's like a semi-constant and weaker influence!
 
VoidZero said:
I can see where you are coming from, but mercenary companies and higher-end military positions do exist.

But converting the current yeoman warriors model into Urban Poor Army with Partisan as leaders will not make the Yeoman prospects any more attractive, because the conversion removes existing Yeoman positions and puts Yeoman to compete against Urban Poor with the same minor leadership position. Steps backward for Yeoman faction in every way.
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Mercenary companies are the elite though, so your average yeoman second son probably isn't going to get into the Red Banner. And even if some do, there are just so many yeomen second sons.

Also, keep in mind that as the army will now draw out a lot of young men from the cities into the military, that will then free up more positions inside the city again. So we'd see something like:

1. Young Male Urban Poor join army, leaving their lower paying jobs behind
2. Lower paying jobs are now open, dole is also there to feed people
3. Second sons take vacant jobs, or join military
 
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Adhoc vote count started by VoidZero on Oct 6, 2017 at 6:18 PM, finished with 525 posts and 83 votes.
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LuciDreamer said:
...Goddammit, now I have an image if this head of Ymaryn-chan and Western Ymaryn-chan being part of some poor hapless sod's harem anime as vampire twins or something.

"Khem-kuuuuun, you love ME more, right?"

"No no no, he loves ME more! Right, Khem-kun?"

"Ha....help... dying..."

"Stop struggling Khem~"

"...please..."

I'm horrible.
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Gosh darn it you made me look for an image of the Ymaryn Brothers and their Sister version:





Behold the ANIMU! May it bless this mess!
 
Kiba said:
Why did you chose the Harmysyn Reforms specifically?
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Same reason most people did I imagine. First sign of some gender equality in centuries, we're unlikely to get an option like this for a very long time. I was also thinking it means we'll likely have a woman King again at some point, which we haven't had in forever. I'd have voted for both, but didn't want the stability loss.
 
The current leading vote have so much hilarious "harmonious" potential.

[PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
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Some kind of unknown social value likely stem from anti-slavery views coupled with giving weapons to poor, while reforming the subordinate might just turn the empire into a prototype confederation or federation. :V The kind that everyone having their own ideas and want different things; while arguing in a nice building when people are shivering in the street.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Yes but without the proper resources they cant keep up the mega wonder of tree's we have. Which we may lose should we collapse.
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It probably takes time to degrade though, and the fact that the main body of the Ymaryn still has the necessary knowledge, and the priesthood will likely be expanding its roots asap, I find it unlikely they will lose the trait anytime soon.
 
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