Yes and we can do that by getting the situation under control before changing it so we don't end up with a massive civil war.
Even if I felt burying our heads in the sand for a few more turns and doing nothing would help, that's not what's currently on the table. Harmysyn is still pushing military reforms and has plenty of potential to make things worse too. Unless we somehow massively expand the military and thus increase demand for officers, those positions formerly "belonged" to Yeoman who went the military route. It's easy to imagine how this would further push the Yeoman to abandon Ymar in search of glory elsewhere if they see no advancement in the army.

A vote for Harmysyn is not a vote for stability.

I realise that's not what you're voting for, but that's not really in the running at the moment.
 
Last edited:
Current military structure have Yeomans act as holding pin preventing Partisans throwing warriors at one another because Yeomans have better things to do than be someone else's beat stick. But when the Urban Poor became the main stream warriors? They will be the beat stick unless they feel starvation is a acceptable price for their principal. Not to mention the priests getting their own support base setup with direct access to urban poor and sharp objects to arm them with.

The Yeomen are hapilly invading other nations. What makes you think they're in any way a dependable control on our military. Hell, we're having an entire crisis about this.
 
The Yeomen are hapilly invading other nations. What makes you think they're in any way a dependable control on our military. Hell, we're having an entire crisis about this.

The Second Son of Yeoman if you notice the name of said crisis. What happens when you shut the military positions from Yeoman completely? The entire Yeoman class suddenly have a lot less going for them and starts to look around the market for their skills. And which of our budding neighbor have a huge demand for fighting people and pays very well?

Second Son Crisis - Lesser warriors are flowing outward, attacking outsiders and risk bringing retribution to the rest of the People. They must be reined in, but once the seed of the frontier has been planted it is hard to uproot. Causes trouble each turn, may end on its own but can be definitively ended with: Max Legitimacy? and 2 of (Max Cent?, Martial Less than 3?, Yeomen Power 0?); or a Civil War
 
The first thing a government should aim for is the continued survival of it's citizens.
One cannot build towering heights, without having a solid foundation.

But the thing to remember is: we're not a government. We're able to take the long view. If some of our population now dies earlier than they would otherwise have done, so that later on our society's structure can lead to better lives for all, that's a sacrifice I'm happy to make. In my analysis, that's what's effectively happening here - trading some probability of collapse, so some fraction of a casualty figure, for some probability of improvement, so some fraction of a quality-of-life increase. Collapse doesn't terminate the game, so these sorts of probabilistic averages seem like a reasonable approach to evaluating the merits of a gamble.
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded

Any other time I'd be all over letting women into our officer corp, but I've been convinced that this is the best way to start to ameliorate the Second Sons bullshit.
 
Current military structure have Yeomans act as holding pin preventing Partisans throwing warriors at one another because Yeomans have better things to do than be someone else's beat stick. But when the Urban Poor became the main stream warriors? They will be the beat stick unless they feel starvation is a acceptable price for their principal. Not to mention the priests getting their own support base setup with direct access to urban poor and sharp objects to arm them with.
Look, yeah, if various members of ruling classes decide to start killing each other, it would be bad, and yes, arming the Urban Poor might give them more means to do it. But you know what also would be bad? Our army trickling away from our control Crow knows where, like what is happening right now. We need to solve the current crisis before worrying about future ones, and voting for Harmysyn solves nothing. Maybe it even makes things worse, locking Yeoman from societal advancement and making spend actions on something that doesn't help us.
 
The Second Son of Yeoman if you notice the name of said crisis. What happens when you shut the military positions from Yeoman completely? The entire Yeoman class suddenly have a lot less going for them and starts to look around the market for their skills. And which of our budding neighbor have a huge demand for fighting people and pays very well?
Yeoman want land, that means they want a constant stream of conquests or settlements, the Urban population just wants food. That does not require a constant stream of conquests, just a decent economic system, which we had before we got hit by five crisis at the same time.

The Urban Poor will be easier to equip with better weapons and will provide us with faster rallying points and a more easily satisfied recruitment base. Look at the Marian Legions, they were an excellent idea that helped Rome conquer the world. The only issue was decentralisation in the state, which we don't have, the main issue with our Yeoman is that we don't have legitimacy in their detached areas, in the cities it's much easier for our strong central authority style government (which has created The Dole to keep the Urban poor fed) to control and keep legitimacy in those areas.
 
Collapse doesn't terminate the game, so these sorts of probabilistic averages seem like a reasonable approach to evaluating the merits of a gamble.

No it doesn't terminate the game, but what collapse will do is set humanity back and progress back. Nice things cannot be had if you don't have the stability or the economy to support it.

Making sure our polity survive the current crisis is taking the long view.
 
This survival.

I don't care if we end up as white knighting superheros, I rather not commit national suicide to do so.
I will aim for survival until I don't have to aim for it.
You haven't answered his question. He asked you "Why do you care about survival?" and you responded with "What I care about is survival." Bad showing on your part.
 
Looks like we will be buidling that fortification annex like I wanted after all. We'll also need an expanded great hall and annex once again. Although these are plans for if we pull through this. Too bad my vote for changing to restoration policy never got off the ground even when we had to juggle two crisises.
 
*silly trumpet doot doots*

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Freeeeeedom!

So since the Myranyn vs Harmysyn reforms are neck and neck at 31 each(at the time I started writing this) I am going to push very strongly for Myranyn.

First, the reason to take it. It is a massive blow against the Second Son crisis, either by outright ending it once the event chain is finished, or weakening it enough that the end conditions are less painful. This is achieved by using our obscene arming ability with the Ironworks and pushing out tons of basic crossbows. This is an Early Classical era development, which for us essentially puts all the ability of war on the state which doles out the food to the urban poor populations. This weakens the Yeomen for a couple of reasons:

They are hilariously outnumbered by the poor, who have easy to use weapons en masse and are incredibly loyal due to being fed.
Next no single patrician is in control of this food supply, our bureaucracy is far far to complex for that to make any kind of sense. More than that it makes much more sense that its the clerks who hold the real power since they can just not do their jobs and there ya go stuff starts locking up, and clerks are low patricians at worst.
Why would the Yeomen still have weapons provided to them by the government like they are being given now, when they are both the source of massive problems and there is a better option in the poor? Any self-respecting bureaucracy will go with the cheaper option of the poor. E: Though thinking about it the Myranyn reforms don't explicitly say that they take away their war fighting ability and instead still leave them some options to go through for advancement so it's more a shifting of the warrior ratio.

Next, about the long term problems brought about by the Marian reforms in our reality. To start I will state boldly that We are not Rome. Rome's downfall came when under the Marian reforms they had the idea to pay the army in either coin, or conquered land if coin was not possible(which happened because China if I recall correctly was sucking up obscene amounts of coinage). It was this second part, the land grabbing which expanded Rome until it burst, and we know how that story went.
Thus you can see the first big difference between the Ymaryn and Rome, we do not hand out land, we do not distribute. So long as we do that and don't reward successful generals with land on the frontier we will avoid that particular pitfall.
Also with our trade dominance we are more in a position to play China than Rome when it comes to amounts of shifting specie and coin, which means payment is a lot easier.

Will taking this have issues made possible that were not before? Absolutely, but those are ones we are pretty set up to deal with right now and we know exactly what they are, and they put the hurt on our current issues.
 
Last edited:
The Second Son of Yeoman if you notice the name of said crisis. What happens when you shut the military positions from Yeoman completely?
This is largely incorrect. Myranyn Reforms still allow Second Sons to migrate to cities (as they have done for ages) and seek social advancement there. Now there's just another option of the army in addition to artisan and priest. From there, they can attempt to work their way up the ranks to a command position. Social mobility in action.

Want to reduce Yeoman social mobility? Support Harmysyn and make those command positions barred to them by granting the Patricians more power.
 
Last edited:
This is largely incorrect. Myranyn Reforms still allow Second Sons to migrate to cities (as they have done for ages) and seek social advancement there. Now there's just another option of the army in addition to artisan and priest. From there, they can attempt to work their way up the ranks to a command position. Social mobility in action.

Want to reduce Yeoman social mobility? Support Harmysyn and make those command positions barred to them by granting the Patricians more power.
Huh, that's actually a pretty good point. Second sons would be able to join the army by becoming part of the urban poor if we take the Myranyn Reforms. And since the second sons wanted to join the army originally, and that's why they went west...
 
Yes I get it you like to be a ass.
Why do I care about survival?
Why should I not, is my answer.
It sounds like you care for survival only for survival's sake, not because we lose something worthwhile if we don't survive.

And since the second sons wanted to join the army originally, and that's why they went west...
They went west because they wanted land, glory, and wealth, not because they couldn't join the army.
 
Last edited:
Huh, that's actually a pretty good point. Second sons would be able to join the army by becoming part of the urban poor if we take the Myranyn Reforms. And since the second sons wanted to join the army originally, and that's why they went west...
Bite the bullet of discomfort and wholesome destitution for a time(Mylathads everywhere) and then work extra hard like Arete demands and then you shall be rewarded.

I could easily see Yeomen officers leading squads of Urban Poor.
 
But the thing to remember is: we're not a government. We're able to take the long view. If some of our population now dies earlier than they would otherwise have done, so that later on our society's structure can lead to better lives for all, that's a sacrifice I'm happy to make. In my analysis, that's what's effectively happening here - trading some probability of collapse, so some fraction of a casualty figure, for some probability of improvement, so some fraction of a quality-of-life increase. Collapse doesn't terminate the game, so these sorts of probabilistic averages seem like a reasonable approach to evaluating the merits of a gamble.

:facepalm:
Yea, because letting our nation die is so helpful towards getting an ideal society, Like its the exact thing we all want, Anarchy
If we have to give up gender equality so our nation which is driving civilization 100s of years ahead of where it should be LIVES, so be it, because any successor state is going to be worse off in ALL respects, even those you get tingly fantasys about.
 
Huh, that's actually a pretty good point. Second sons would be able to join the army by becoming part of the urban poor if we take the Myranyn Reforms. And since the second sons wanted to join the army originally, and that's why they went west...
Well, the Second Sons crisis came up not because they wanted to join the army, but because they wanted wealth and prestige, of which they could gain by joining the army.

They gained exponentially more wealth and prestige by killing our neighbors and looting our stuff though, so I'm not entirely sure the second sons would have been content with simply fighting some pirates when further glory could be gained elsewhere more easily.
 
No it doesn't terminate the game, but what collapse will do is set humanity back and progress back. Nice things cannot be had if you don't have the stability or the economy to support it.

Making sure our polity survive the current crisis is taking the long view.

Considering that the Western Ymaryn, our confirmed successor state, should retain access to many of the advancements we've made over the years, the damage to humanity's collective progress - while non-trivial - seems sufficiently low to justify taking a risk. Admittedly, since it's impossible to run hard numbers here, that is a subjective assessment - you're free not to share it, but I felt I should at least explain my views.
 
Considering that the Western Ymaryn, our confirmed successor state, should retain access to many of the advancements we've made over the years, the damage to humanity's collective progress - while non-trivial - seems sufficiently low to justify taking a risk. Admittedly, since it's impossible to run hard numbers here, that is a subjective assessment - you're free not to share it, but I felt I should at least explain my views.
Uh no, if we collapse, the libraries and knowledge we have doesn't spontaneously appear in Western Ymaryn, we'll lose a shitton of it as civil war, famine and destruction ensue. Then when the current generation dies, any knowledge not written down is lost or distorted
 
Considering that the Western Ymaryn, our confirmed successor state, should retain access to many of the advancements we've made over the years, the damage to humanity's collective progress - while non-trivial - seems sufficiently low to justify taking a risk. Admittedly, since it's impossible to run hard numbers here, that is a subjective assessment - you're free not to share it, but I felt I should at least explain my views.

The Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse, but I doubt anybody will tell you that such partial survival is a good thing.

And Western Ymaryn is much less ideal than our, since it was literally found on conquest.
 
They went west because they wanted land, glory, and wealth, not because they couldn't join the army.
I think they probably wanted a good life more than anything. Their choices at the time were either:

A: Become part of the urban poor. Suffer. Probably die of starvation or plague. No real way to advance.
B: Work as a poor farmer for your family. No real way to advance.
C: Risk your life going west, have a good chance of dying, but if you survive you get your own farm and some cool stories to tell your kids.

Adding a chance to join the army as part of the urban poor and work your way up from there means going to the city is now viable. It wouldn't solve all of our problems, but it would reduce the numbers of young folk who feel they need to go west to actually have a chance at living a good life.
 
Last edited:
Yea, because letting our nation die is so helpful towards getting an ideal society, Like its the exact thing we all want, Anarchy
If we have to give up gender equality so our nation which is driving civilization 100s of years ahead of where it should be LIVES, so be it, because any successor state is going to be worse off in ALL respects, even those you get tingly fantasys about.

Leaving aside the frankly incomprehensible attempt at what I assume to be Ad Hominem tacked onto the end there...

Where, exactly, are you getting the idea that our successors will necessarily be meaningfully worse in all respects? They'll certainly be less powerful, but I don't see backsliding on our social or technological improvements to be a guaranteed consequence.
 
Back
Top