Okay so has anyone made some guesses on how to Unlock Mandala Economy System?
Or would it be not be worth it/ a dead end like palace economy?
 
...If they keep focusing on aqueducts, and if we drop our econ down every time, sure? But i really don't think we can assume either of those things... There are so many other priorities for infrastructure after redshore and/or lower valley home are aqueducted. Aqueducts give +4 expansion slots each time, so unless we drop our slots down, we keep the same number of cities. So i really don't see us having more than 4 true/free cities anytime soon, because at that point it'll be hard to eat slots even if we want to...planting poppies and the like eat slots, but we also want to expand at least one more settlement for a new province, and we want to integrate things, which gives slots back...
It's a caution thing, because right now, just about every non-Saltern Extended Project has a natural consequence of "A city spawns in the next 6 turns".

Thats what is meant by city explosion risks. Every extended project would spawn more cities,
The walls holding out perfectly fine were the significant (or massive) walls, not the "minor walls" that are the norm for us, iirc.
Yep. Hatvalley built a bunch of those that we inherited.
There aren't? I'd been sure there were...If nothing else i imagine they had blacksmiths that used imported iron or just repaired or recycled broken tools, like Txolla did.
Yes, but anyone could repair or recycle iron. You only really need a campfire and two rocks.
The smiths then don't bring the big innovation and breakthrough in iron. Iron's boon is that the source is enormous. But to extract from the source you need the knowledge of smelters, who are a rather protected population.

It's why we were so alarmed about leaking iron to the Highlanders, SOMEBODY smuggled a live smelter with the tools of their trade out.
I would like to note that Guild Mercantile doesn't seem to be all that bad mechanically. Disaster resistance could be better of course, but the extra actions it grants is godly. Of course the narrative effects are a different story, but I don't think they'd be TOO bad as long as we keep doing different industry projects each turn so that one guild doesn't get too powerful.
Well, if we can remember to balance projects.

Some guilds are naturally going to be disproportionately powerful.
The millers, until we split them into the specialist subforms of mechanists, will be a pretty big deal. So will the smiths and masons. They're too integral to our economy to be otherwise.

The rest...we'll see.
She did. But there is a general sentiment by many in France that Charles VII did not give any real credence to Joan of Arc's declaration that God had sent her to free France from English rule. This despite him being the main beneficiary of the crusade... There are couple incidents, such as Charles disguising himself on their first meeting, which looks a lot like he was trying to be able to claim lese-majesty or insult to the crown. Also, despite her requests Charles VII did not really entrust her with command of any significant number of troops which led to her capture at Compiegne and ransoming to the English by the Burgundians. And it is claimed that there were no serious attempts by Charles VII to ransom her or rescue her from their witchcraft trial- none that could be tied to him, at least.

Of course, all of this debate is tied into Charles VII's legitimacy, which is the political football that really led to Joan's witch trial in the first place- if Charles VII was installed by a witch, he was not a legitimate ruler. So a lot of accounts of pretty much everything around the Maid of Orleans are almost undeniably politically motivated and thereby suspect.

Hopefully things don't work out the way for Yenyna the way they did for Joan.
For him it was a legitimacy issue. Being seen to have kept his throne due to a peasant AND a girl weakened it.
I don't really see why the Free City Trial has to be Lower Valleyhome. Redshore is just as good and doesn't require us to build another aqueduct. I feel the fears of them somehow breaking away and becoming Ymaryn Venice are borderline scaremongering.
*Shrug*
Redshore and Lower Valleyhome are both good sites for Free City testbeds. Whynotboth applies here. Free cities this close to the Crown, I don't feel to be a problem.
 
Okay so has anyone made some guesses on how to Unlock Mandala Economy System?
Or would it be not be worth it/ a dead end like palace economy?
It's a straight upgrade to Palace by word of AN so it's worth it for that.

As to a dead end? I don't know, the tenets of the practice have survived in some form to the modern day in South East Asia where it initially originated.

As to how to get it? Governor Palaces, Free Cities, More Subordinates in general, Distributing Land.

I think those would be doing it, though they also may miss and turn us into a Manorial which is somewhat similar but probably directly worse since it was from the last tier and Mandala and Guild Merch seem to be tier two.

Governor's Palace spam. Build bigger Storehouse. Maximum state investment in wildcat triggers. At a guess.
These too probably.

Everything that supports a suzerain-tributary personal relationship.

You know it is kinda cool to see all subordinates at 5/5 Loyalty (except Hawks at 4/5). The Ymarri family is standing together.
I've talked about it before but we seem to naturally trend toward High Loyalty/Low Dependency for our Subordinates.

I'm actually mildly surprised the Red Banner is still 5/5 with the seeming lack of support they have been getting. That had to be triggering Lord's Loyalty often.
 
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Well when they are mostly humorous things(this IS maximillian we are talking about here) I don't see much reason to feel [insert appropriate negative feeling here] about them.

I know I'm not really taking it seriously aside as a fun thing, I know maximillian ain't. Voters part of my "bloc" can vote for whatever they want. At worst it's a nice short hand for figuring out a voters particular voting trend, or something like that.


See fellow herdsmen? The goblet lord has admitted that his block is but a farce!
Join our flock o people of the land, for not only are we, like, totally serious, but we will lead you to the paradise promised to us in the book of wool!
 
It's a caution thing, because right now, just about every non-Saltern Extended Project has a natural consequence of "A city spawns in the next 6 turns".
What's the problem? Cities pop if there is too much EE; if we feel like we have too many cities we just get our EE up and call it a day. With 3+ cities we basically won't be losing EE always, and integrating territory gives EE, so it isn't like it would be difficult.
 
What's the problem? Cities pop if there is too much EE; if we feel like we have too many cities we just get our EE up and call it a day. With 3+ cities we basically won't be losing EE always, and integrating territory gives EE, so it isn't like it would be difficult.
Sudden and precipitous drop in our cent cap putting us in a bind is the issue, before we can turn them into Free Cities.

Aside from territory expansion, though we also have the City Popper in Black Soil.
 
Maximum state investment in wildcat triggers
Need to build more Cent if we want to take advantage of that.
Maybe switch to Restoration Province Policy so they can spam Enforce Justice to build Cent and recover from the war damage to our Stab with us manually Building Governor's Palaces in places that deserve and/or need one?

Or Would just Spamming more roads be better?
 
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Need to build more Cent if we want to take advantage of that.
Maybe switch to Restoration Province Policy so they can spam Enforce Justice to build Cent and recover from the war damage to our Stab with us manually Building Governor's Palaces in places that deserve and/or need one?

Or Would just Spamming more roads be better?
*whynotboth.jpg*

My opinion is that roads would be better first, because they raise our high cap while also raising our Cent itself. And having more room to play in is always super useful in this quest.
 
*metaphorically walks into thread, literal coffee in hand*

Ok. I'm bored.


Gloved Gauntlet, the party of Ungentle Idealism

Motto: Be nice to others until they're enemies; be harsh to enemies until they're nothing; provide for our people above all.

Party manifesto:

The current war:
The party aims to see the People victorious and safe, because anyone who aims otherwise is a dumbass. The central goal is to humiliate the Khemetri so badly that they suffer a civil war and are thus no longer a threat. The secondary goal is to maintain a lack of militancy within our people - the people shouldn't be deprived of joy just to shorten the length of a war. The last goal is to acquire a better territorial positioning.


Economy: Technological advances are key to sustained development, even more important than simple resources. The Guild Mercantilism economic policy is an effective choice in this regard. However, actions must be taken to ensure that Guild Mercantilism does not increase corruption and decrease social mobility within our polity - factual meritocracy is the goal. When it comes to our subordinates, we should allow them some degree of independence but maintain high loyalty and oppose agonistic cultural differentiation.


Education: More temples, more libraries. Education is the best way toward a happy and stable populace, increased technological growth, and an inherent corrective force against corrupt governmental officials.


Health and social care: Our people must be taken care of at all times. Even if there will be some who would abuse the system, it must be assumed that people as a whole act with a sense of responsibility and guilt - as a result of our social traits - and thus that total social care is a net positive. Study Health should be performed more often than we have been doing it, and especially after relevant technological developments in other fields occur.


Government: More government is only bad when the people aren't given the tools to prune away those parts of the government that are becoming corrupt. It is the duty of the government to protect the people; to provide them with opportunities to grow and contribute; and to provide them with care when they are not able to care for themselves. At all times, the government and the government's actions must be viewed in light of its stewardship over the people and the land.


Foreign affairs and defense: Soft power is better than hard power; land is better than resources. If we can prevent a war peacefully, do so. If we enter into a war, make the responsible polity pay with its populace and its space. Preventative or passive defenses like marches and walls, respectively, are preferable to reactive defenses like mercenaries, though mercenaries certainly provide a means through which we can influence foreign affairs.
 
Unlike our reactions to threats, we should act in calm and controlled matter.

As long as we do not rush just any one advancement, we should see no problems. Pattern Major Road Infrastructure and Greater Forest Expansion with Governor Palaces and Wildcat Propecting.

I do suggest we start roads first. For our sort of government, having higher centralization is much more useful
 
Epic Age VI
[X][TH] Accept token tribute (+1 Wealth, +1 Stability, +1 Prestige, end of war)
[X][HK] Attempt a White Peace (Good chance of being accepted, +1 Stability if accepted)
[X][Berserk] No

Reshemhetari, Son of the Sun, Cupbearer of the Waters Djeb, Golden Prince of the Moon Crescent of War - was tired.

"How... how many?" He asked while sitting, half-collapsed, upon the field stool brought to him at the end of this madness.

The high level clerk assigned to him looked more than a little uncomfortable and began, "My Glorious Prince, we are still sorting through the dead..."

"How. Many?" Reshemhetari demanded.

There was quiet for a time before the clerk spluttered for a moment and then asked awkwardly, "I ask my Glorious Prince if you have ever deigned to ask the clerks of some of their more esoteric numbers..."

"Are you asking if I would even understand the numbers?" Reshem snapped.

"Err... yes, my Glorious Prince," the clerk replied.

"Then are men as grains of wheat to spill through the fingers of clerks, the sands of Seshhemat? Tell me your number," the prince demanded, but more softly this time, the weight and horror of it all weighing upon him.

"We believe the total number of dead on both sides to be in excess of one hundred thousand, with our side suffering somewhat fewer casualties due to your expert leadership," the clerk stated.

One. Hundred. Thousand.

Dead.


Since it was his job to understand these things, in reflecting back upon the absolute insanity that just happened, he breathed, "We must have brought seventy to eighty thousand each to this fight, and suffered nearly two thirds casualties each."

"It is a testament to your skill my Glorious Prince that we did not break under such circumstances," the clerk replied.

Glancing at the stub of the sword that he had dropped nearby - not even his original blade but one of his bodyguards who had died in the midst of it all! - and then at the lumps draped in linen sheets that had once been the men who had watched over him since childhood, Reshem snorted in disgust and then waved in the vague direction of the enemy camp. "For some value of 'not broken'! And neither did they!"

At the other end of this bloodstained valley the banners of the enemy still snapped in the wind. The bulk of the enemy forces were obvious conscripts and militia - somewhat similar to his own - and the bulk of his forces had reaped a terrible toll upon them as they had done upon his forces, but the hard core of their warriors remained strong. He was lucky that he had had years to learn from their style of war, to divide his forces into blocks depending on their roles and keep some away from the press of melee until they were needed, until he could press fresh troops into weak lines - either his or the enemy's, or when their actual main forces showed up this would not have turned well for him. These Northerners could fight!

Worst of all were those under the Red Banner and those under the Banner of Sokbhet. The first had the best equipment and the best training and could go toe to toe with any three of his own companies and expect to win more often than not, while the second seemed to be the personal company of their king, possessing the majority of their cavalry forces and having the Sun Devourer's own luck at somehow being in the right place at the right time. In one engagement it had come to the muscle for both groups when he and his personal bodyguard had come into contact with the enemy command group. On the one hand he had nearly slain their commander, but on the other he had nearly been slain in turn. The Sokbhets had also been the ones that had managed to break open the sieges and bring about this field battle for the day.

Holding out a hand that had not quite stopped trembling from the combination of exhaustion, fear, and exhilaration, he remembered that fight. He had no idea how the temples would commemorate it, but he would probably have to tell the priests and artists personally that if they dared make it look like he was dominating the fight he would have them flayed and left out alive for the vultures. His guards needed to be commemorated properly, their sacrifices remembered. While he had never actually tripped, an image of Horeshimi interposing himself between an enemy's blade and Reshem while he was sprawled out on the ground would probably work well enough. But what a fight! The confused swirl of melee as commanders and their guards desperately tried to kill each other and also extricate from the situation. And at the heart of it all was Reshem and the monster.

Assuredly a demon of Sokbhet in human flesh - or possibly a statue given animation by evil magic! - the creature had been standing behind the commander whispering in his ear just before Reshem and his forces had slammed into the group. Clad in black scales and wearing a helm of bronze cast in the shape of the giant serpent skull that flew on their banner, with further bronze castings like serpent skulls upon the shoulders. At the back of the helm was a massive headdress of dozens, perhaps hundreds of black feathers arranged in an impressive crest, and the demonic impression was further enhanced by the only sound the creature made being crocodilian hisses and avian squawks. And then the two groups collided and Reshem could take in no more details, even if his appreciation for the creature was not yet done.



What madness! What violence! The two groups had fought with the fury of the possessed, the finest trained and equipped warriors of both sides going at each other like a farmer upon grain when the taxman was watching. Swords, axes, and spears had flashed back and forth at the point of contact, golden bronze versus their black and silver, sparks kicking up from the points of contact. With mace and sword Reshem had hooked, smashed, and slived his way through three men before he came into contact with the demon, at which point his royal khopesh met the thing's blade and was found wanting, the bronze giving way and twisting to uselessness. While the demon was obviously unused to its form, its motions lacking any refinement, they came on with frightful speed and brutality. The guards of both sides attempted to separate demon and sun prince, but all they ended up doing was feeding the blades of the opposite, and feeding their champions fresh weaponry as the clash between them grew ever more frenzied. Reshem lost track of how many blades he broke, how many lifelong companions fell to that monster, but at the final clash...

At the final clash...

He ran his hand across the line that would forever mar his face. He had dented the the thing's armour, pierced it in places, and in turn it had given him scars upon the arms. His whole body felt like lead and just holding his arms up against their own weight - to say nothing of the weight of his arms and the remains of his own armour! - was a challenge comparable to holding up the dome of heaven. The demon seemed in a similar state though, so he mustered up the last of his strength to charge forward, at the last moment his strike whipping about like a serpent from a telegraphed slash into a hammer blow by the pommel into the helm. Unfortunately the demon had similar ideas, and while his blow landed first and most powerfully, it was not enough to keep the thing's blade from running across his jaw. Before the demon could fall, before there was even the chance of another blow being struck, an enemy conscript charged in, and while easily dispatched it became evident that the general melee had swirled in their direction. Guards on both sides managed to physically drag their charges away from the chaos.

In the end, the Northerners began the signal to fall back first... but the Sun Prince and his army was in no capacity to pursue. Both sides had fallen back in utter exhaustion to their camps at either end of the valley where they had met to do battle, walls and hills of dead between them marking the places where they had been in contact. Soon enough priests from both sides had met to ask for the collection of their dead, and now the two groups rested as the sun set, the red light of sunset hiding the literal river of blood trickling its way out of the terrain.

And then Reshem made up his mind. Getting unsteadily to his feet, he said to one of his attendants, "Signal the enemy that I wish to parlay. This will take more than a day to clean up, the truce should last longer than until sunset."

It was twilight by the time a delegation from each side was able to meet in the carrion eater choked neutral ground between them. Torches held by both sides gave illumination in the twilight, although the shadows were somewhat welcomed to hide the extent of injuries and exhaustion. Translators from both sides were the closest together, while those with the actual power to determine the course of things were surrounded by what was left of their guard detail. Reshem saw no sign of the demon, although he was somewhat intrigued by the presence of a ghostly pale woman among the group of nobles.

After going through the typical preamble of introductions and the like, Reshem said, "I'll skip out on further posturing, we've done enough of that today. I have spoken with captives and they say that you are under a divine mandate to protect land you have settled. I understand the weight of divine law, even as my own orders compel me onward. We have taken each other's measure and we are obviously not found wanting. So, I extend to you this offer to end this fighting: acknowledge the divinity of the Master of All, and the Master of All shall acknowledge the right of the north to the land they have already settled. We need not fight further."

One of the nobles nearby hissed, "My Glorious Prince, you-"

"My father will listen to me, one way or another," Reshem hissed back, and the warriors around him shifted subtly. His father had started this fight and expended incredible amounts of resources clashing with a people he had known nothing about, while he had under his personal command the finest warriors the world knew. While frowned upon, sometimes god-kings needed to shed their mortal coils early, and so long as the next king was already the Cup Bearer the problems this caused could be plastered over with only a bit of effort. So long as he had something to bring back to show for all of this, the court could be convinced of his victory and the Master of All -whoever that might be - would agree to the peace.

The translators had gone back and forth over his message a bit before word was passed back to him, "They ask what you would demand as this acknowledgement."

The Khemetri are offering terms
[] Acknowledge superiority (-15 Prestige, loses King of the Hill, peace, chance of +1 Stability)
[] Offer tribute (-5 Prestige, -10 Wealth, keeps King of the Hill, chance of +1 Stability)
[] The war will continue (War continues, have mid-turn actions before next War Mission rolls to potentially regenerate forces)​
 
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Sudden and precipitous drop in our cent cap putting us in a bind is the issue,
I doubt that the cities would form at literally the same time, and every if they did I would expect to see the option to have them set as free cities in founding.

Also, I don't think we've everything seen Yellow centralization yet, so I can't say I'm especially worried about cent-cap.

And we could REALLY use more cities soon ish to help suggest the baby-boom.
 
I think when we hit 12 we can extend it via subordinate slots and governor palaces.

In which case I recommend we eat the HK first because having that dagger close to our Core is a disaster.
If we get the HK as a vassal I want us to 1) build a Governor's palace in the north so that we can ignore them for a bit longer, 2) do a Main Influence until they're basically us, 3) integrate them as possible until they're actually us.

Their land is just so useful in terms of connecting w/ our lowland vassal, Gulvalley, cutting out the Trell, etc.
 
EDIT: Let's do the voting thing

[X] The war will continue (War continues, have mid-turn actions before next War Mission rolls to potentially regenerate forces)

Screw you and the slave-drawn chariot you rode in on. Divinity nothing.
 
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General
Diplomacy 16 [+1]
Economy 12 [-2+12] {11}
-Sustainable Forests 10/11
-Econ Expansion 6 [+2-12]
Martial 3 (+7) {7}
Wealth 14 [+5-3]

Cultural
Culture 6
Mysticism 13 (+1) [+1]
Tech 4
Prestige 69

Stability
Stability -1 (anxious)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

Organizational
Centralization 3
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 4
Holy shit that Martial score.
 
[X] The war will continue (War continues, have mid-turn actions before next War Mission rolls to potentially regenerate forces)

Did you think that demanding us to submit would call off the Thunder?
 
[X] The war will continue (War continues, have mid-turn actions before next War Mission rolls to potentially regenerate forces)

low wealth = stab hits
I'm not paying them for a war they more or less started
 
[X] Offer tribute (-5 Prestige, -10 Wealth, keeps King of the Hill, chance of +1 Stability)
We should offer tribute, because wealth cannot compare to the lives of the fallen.

@Academia Nut is this option basically to let us both keep KotH and convince the Khemetri that we submitted to them?

This lets us end the war now, and lets us focus our attention on the treacherous Highlanders while keeping KotH.
 
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[x] The war will continue (War continues, have mid-turn actions before next War Mission rolls to potentially regenerate forces)
No!
We must break them here or they will come back and stab us again.
 
[X] The war will continue (War continues, have mid-turn actions before next War Mission rolls to potentially regenerate forces)
 
Civilization Stats

General
Diplomacy 16 [+1]
Economy 12 [-2+12] {11}
-Sustainable Forests 10/11
-Econ Expansion 6 [+2-12]
Martial 3 (+7) {7}
Wealth 14 [+5-3]

Cultural
Culture 6
Mysticism 13 (+1) [+1]
Tech 4
Prestige 69

Stability
Stability -1 (anxious)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

Organizational
Centralization 3
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 4
That prestige

@Academia Nut Gulvalley is still endangered?
 
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Giving tribute might actually be worth it, and at this point it's definitely not going to be seen as a sign of weakness.
 
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