[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Open up the market for the metal
[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably Spiritual Value)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Meet yeoman demands (Sec New Settlement + Sec New Roads, meets Yeoman faction demands)
 
Hmm...instead of attacking the Storm Wolves after Admin King dies, what if we instead build more trails?


Complex ritual and ceremony is the death of science. Those priests who focus on them rather than science will gain more power and influence, resulting in less doing science and then science being forbidden to prevent a previous ritual or ceremony from being proven useless and thus diminishing those priests' power.


Not quite true, with complex hierarchy comes specialisation, you can have both scholasticism, ritual and ceremony as well as mysticism withing the same ecclesiastical organisation. Just look at the Catholic church for example.

And ritual and ceremony are as much social as they are spiritual processes. They are a foci of societal ideals and create a tangible link and idea of oneness or continuity that binds the various people's and cultures of empire.
 
@Academia Nut given that we've had Population Explosion ongoing for multiple turns now and it has a similar effect as Influence Subordinate on our subordinate's cultures have we had the effects of a Main Influence Subordinate in terms of cultural change yet?
 
Analysis post

Diplomacy 2 [+2] -> 2 [+5]

With the participants we now have a passive income of 4 Diplomacy per turn.
Games Stronk. This is very useful for Influencing and Integrating subordinates.
Or Terrify.

Economy 16 [-3+14] -> 16 [-3+14]

No expenses yet

Sustainable Forests 12/14 -> 12/14

No expenses or gains yet.

Econ Expansion 16 [+3-14] -> Econ Expansion 18 [+3-14]
-Aqueducts +2

Nothing much here, just the previously forgotted aqueducts.

Martial 20 {25} -> 18 {23}
-Pirates! -2

A chunk of our warriors ran away to be assholes. Justice demands that we take care of our troubles, for this is what we demanded of the Thunder Speakers when their rogue warriors raided us in the past. We will clean up our shit.

On the bright side it's not red anymore?

Minor Pirate Group: -1 Wealth/turn until hunted down
A seemingly minor wealth drain, but history shows Minor Pirate groups only need a few big hauls to become Large Pirate Fleets. They're basically sea-nomads, though they cannot recover from battle damage unless they build their own port, use a friendly port or jack additional ships.

The problem is we have pirates on speedboats specifically designed to run circles around their competitors. If we don't catch them the only way they're going down is if they surrendered to the Trelli in exchange for giving the Trelli catamarans to copy. :V

Trait evolutions meanwhile:
Divine Stewards:
Divine Stewards
Through the blessings of the spirits and the efforts of the People, the land is reshaped, and its management and protection is a good above all others. No effort is to great when it comes to the stewardship of the land.
Pros: Bonuses to all actions relating to land management, bonuses when fighting on own terrain, additional Econ and Stability whenever completing a land management type Megaproject, may spend Stability to double the effort of megaprojects and in defensive wars
Cons: Additional strife caused by deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land, or loss of territory to others
Becomes Personal Stewards of Nature
Personal Stewards of Nature
Through the blessings of the spirits and the efforts of the People in individual and whole, the land is reshaped, and its management and protection is a good above all others. No effort is to great when it comes to the stewardship of the land, and many pursue their own little projects where it does not conflict with the symphony of the whole
Pros: Bonuses to all actions relating to land management, bonuses when fighting on own terrain, additional Econ and Stability whenever completing a land management type Megaproject, may spend Stability to double the effort of megaprojects and in defensive wars, certain projects may receive additional actions at the midturn at the cost of Centralization
Cons: Additional strife caused by deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land, or loss of territory to others
It's a fairly straightforward fusion of Wildcat Prospecting's individualism into our communal views and laws, recognizing that, rather than use it for mining, the best way to dedicate your individual effort is towards environmental improvement.

So I suspect that unlike Wildcat Prospecting, Personal Stewards is limited to Land Management type projects(current samples are all land management). It'd be interesting to see if we can trigger Personal Stewards to accelerate a land management project.

We'll see if it works for agricultural cash crop production, but it does come at a good time, Wildcat Prospecting puts a lot of power into the hands of traders and guilds. This gives us the benefit of a Centralization drop without the same risks.

Cosmopolitan Acceptance
Cosmopolitan Acceptance
The People see not outsiders but fellow humans in need of assistance, and are always willing to offer aid, knowing that even when friendship is uncertain the act of offering is a cleansing one.
Pros: Enhanced absorption of new ideas, +1 social value from current or historical neighbours, whenever a neighbour suffers a stability drop have the option to also suffer a stability drop in exchange for a large boost to Econ and technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people, the first Econ boost a turn only has a chance of causing a stability drop rather than a guaranteed drop
Cons: Many think you weak, no longer have the option to turn away the needy, sometimes you get values you didn't expect

Evolves to Pride in Acceptance
Pride in Acceptance
The People see not outsiders but fellow humans in need of assistance, and are always willing to offer aid, knowing that even when friendship is uncertain the act of offering is a cleansing one.
Pros: Enhanced absorption of new ideas, +1 social value from current or historical neighbours, whenever a neighbour suffers a stability drop have the option to also suffer a stability drop in exchange for a large boost to Econ and technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people, the first Econ boost a turn is free and the second only has a chance of causing a stability drop rather than a guaranteed drop, massively increased inward tech spread, new CBs
Cons: Many think you weak, no longer have the option to turn away the first two boosts, sometimes you get values you didn't expect, increased outward tech spread
The fluff is unchanged, though the name indicates that this goes beyond merely accepting that foreigners are people.
So we look to the individual elements:
-The name indicates how we're reducing Stability now. People feel PROUD that they are taking in the needy, so much that it offsets the inherent social disruption of refugees. They're happy enough about this that they tolerate people not fitting in.

-The first drain is free and automatic. If neighbors suffer a drop of 1 Stability, we just automatically eat them up for nothing more than small temp econ damage. If Neighbors lose 2 Stability they're going to automatically lose 4 Econ, which is a small settlement. It also means hitting the levels of 'suck off entire chunks of territory' 'only' costs 3.5 Stability now, though the temp econ damage might sting a bit.
--This makes Storehouse annexes and Centralization increases in general much more valuable. If we were still on Palace(or Mandala) this would be bullshit powerful, we'd be able to eat entire countries with a burp.

-The inward tech spread is enormously boosted. If they have a connection to us, we welcome them, put them next to the fire and then beer the shit out of their people to get their techs.
--We also passively uptech the region. This obviously favors those trading with us and attending our Games. Khemetri nobles in attendance will go home talking about the lightning fast boats and the strange Ymaryn bows to spur imitation, etc.
---BUT, this also means we passively culture convert the region to use our techs, and incidentally generates a selection pressure, those at war with us, or not attending our Games will fall behind slowly techwise against the other parties.
----But the biggest benefits would be to other Great Powers, who are not competing with us and can use our techs out of sight. The Khemetri are going to have a LOT of fun in the Mediterranean with our stuff.

-We gain new CBs, multiple in fact. This will likely take the forms of:
--Internal intervention. Refugees fleeing oppression? Why your local Great Power is happy to attack their tyrants as liberators!(note history says this has a shitty track record of being effective once the initial cheer wears off)
--Foreign intervention. Refugees fleeing invasion? Don't worry, Ymarynzilla will fight a defensive war for your sake. This can be a prelude to assimilating them as a protectorate afterwards. We've already done this before for Stonepen and Northshore, if you recall.

The Northerners were a very strange people, but once Remaharmati got to see one of their major cities when it wasn't on fire, he got a better look at them and found them... very strange, but also strangely appealing in several ways.
Much like his father, he is frightened and aroused!

Finally though he decided that he just had to ask.

"Do your people not suffer from the pox?" The prince asked through his translator.

There was some back and forth as his intent got through, the translator showing several scars to demonstrate which pox exactly that he meant. Eventually the rather surprising answer came back as, "Our ancestors received a ward against the pox from the gods in centuries past. It is our most powerful and sacred magic, and it is also extremely dangerous if mishandled."

The information that the Northerners had a ward against the pox caused the entire delegation to stop dead in their tracks in amazement. What then followed was a deep discussion between the prince and the priests accompanying him. Finally they said, "We will have the royal court astrologers brought here the next time we come to teach you everything we know about the heavens and divining the future if your priests will teach us this magic."
That's just how much they value the possibility of the innoculation. This would also conveniently keep the Khemetri busy for a while. The Sacred Warding is an enormous project as a reminder, if not for Bynwyn, it'd normally take 12 dedicated actions AND building a holy site per settlement.

Assuming our tech transfer basically takes the place of Bynwyn's Knowledge, it'd keep them busy for maybe 2-6 turns depending on how much they invest. We'd probably ship a few cows over too as a starter set.

And according to them, this is basically all their astrology techs, which according to AN won't make Place to the Stars any faster, but DOES improve it.
A ward for the pox? Such magic would be invaluable in saving lives... in more ways than one. One of Remaharmati's younger brothers had been badly afflicted in his youth - well, several had, but the worst cases were dead - and the experience had left him badly disfigured. Rather than taking up any duties, he had retreated from public life and into the royal harem, where he was... well, were he not of divine blood he would have been dealt with already.
If Remah became king he would strangle his brother himself just to keep the man away from the throne. He'd let the affliction get to him and had become as ugly on the inside as he perceived himself to be on the outside. And from the position of prince, Remah was of the opinion that more than a few disasters in the history of his people had come from promising princes perishing early, and some of them being twisted by the demons of disease. Reducing that by warding against the pox... the possibilities were incredible.
Horrifying.

And here we see a few of the flaws of absolute heritable power coupled to infallible god-king system. It makes the solution to bad heirs being some form of kinslaying or assassination.

Elsewhere, the new heir to the throne of the People was working on the list of things that needed to get accomplished in the near future. At around the top of that list was the fact that a few hundred warriors and a dozen ships had gone missing.

"The same young fools - or at least the same sort - that triggered the riot and fire seem to have decided that they want to go be pirates and raiders. We've officially warned the Trelli that they may be attacking isolated settlements and traders, and that if they catch them they can do whatever the wish as these renegades have shunned our protection," one his investigators told Hertythyn. "Oh! They've also reported back their interest in attending the games."

-2 Martial
Minor Pirate group preying upon your shipping, -1 Wealth until dealt with (Requires sending a Sailing Mission to find them, followed by a War Mission or deployment of mercenaries to deal with them
You know, I hope that we drag these damned pirates home and give them the full interrogation works. Successfully jacking a fleet of 12 ships is rather huge, even if Catamarans don't need as many people to crew.

The Trelli joining is good, but we knew they wanted to join already. They BADLY need the Prestige to support more mercenary bands after all.

That and the event is the single biggest artificial centers of trade in the region, if they don't show up they can't protect their financial interests with counteroffers if the Ymaryn find somewhere else to sell their goods.

"The Swamp Folk and Metal Workers have also reported interest in attending. The Storm Wolves don't see the point, and the Thunder Horse snubbed our delegate. Incidentally, both of those latter two groups are currently making gains against the former two, so that may have something to do with it," a second man reported to the heir.

This will help us learn more about the Swamp Folk at least, hadn't talked to their people ever. Must have been surprising to them to get this out of the blue, and they'd be traveling to us via the Xohyr route.

The Metal Workers basically have no reason to refuse, we're their oldest trade partners after all.

The Storm Wolves don't see the point, which is a fairly neutral refusal. Funny thing is, for Nomad tribes, grand contests like this are a means of tying disparate tribes together. He just didn't see it.

Thunder Horse still hate us, though that's hardly a surprise by any standards, they went further to snub us over it. If we weren't about to go take a swing at the HK soon I wouldn't mind renting out the Red Banner to show what we think of that...but we can't really do anything to the Thunder Horse any time soon, so not worth it.

At that Hertythyn grunted in dissatisfaction. That was probably going to cause issues in the future. Nothing quite like having attractive youths coming over to talk with your elites about sob stories from home to whip up sentiment to do something. Hopefully it wouldn't be his problem though. Wars were a stupid way to sort things out. They just made messes that poor clerks had to go and clean up afterwards.
Heh, the new CBs was Not Approved by poor Herty.
They make his head hurt.

Although, reflecting upon some of the discussions being made, he considered the right to club some of the People upside the head an option he wished he could resort to.
I have word that the HK has a trait that allows you to smack troublemakers with banhammers!

The elites were complaining that the infantry were receiving all the support and they wanted more chariots for their sons to ride around on instead of doing other things and absorbing large amounts of luxuries. Well, given that bored young men with too much combat training and not enough to do had already sparked off a minor pirate problem, just increasing the funding for chariots was out of the cards. They would have to prune things down or introduce more discipline.

That's another solution to the martial cap problem.
But raising a Mercenary company should allow us to do that if we wanted.

Note that leaving this unattended is not good. Nobles sitting around spending large amounts of luxuries will soon develop the ability to JUSTIFY that sitting around spending large amounts of luxuries as a good thing.
Long term solution is to build the Gymnasium, but allowing the quest to fail is not good long term either.
We should build secondary chariots next turn we have control. It'd synergize with Highlander war mission anyway.

Of course the traders were sort of happy that the elites were starting to buy more stuff locally, but their returns were better elsewhere so they were clamouring for the People to either increase production on something somewhere or get in on other trade channels. While the priests were glaring daggers at them over the idea that maybe there were some outsiders who no one would mind being sold to the Trelli because they were bad people anyway, there was another problem with the traders.
And this is why we don't put merchants in charge. Wealth optimization is short term.

The Trader quest is painful in it's penalty, but ultimately won't do anything good or bad for us unless it plunges us into negative stability.
The priests meanwhile are the voice of sanity. Yay!
Selling iron the People made to outsiders was forbidden, but with the Metal Workers having their own mines and production there were a few traders who were staying within the letter of the law and flagrantly violating the spirit by buying up Metal Worker iron and reselling it elsewhere. Given that the secret was definitely out now, and the Khemetri were going to pursue the ability themselves, there was a lobby within the traders to simply lift the old restrictions and allow iron to be traded.
We're getting better regional info. Might be a product of the Games bringing rumors to one place.

Still, bloody traders.
Some even suggested that by doing it themselves they might suppress the spread of iron outside their control. They had the best quality because of experience, so if it was cheaper to buy from the People than to natively develop the smelting and then look for ore deposits. Not everyone was convinced... but then again it would probably keep them from doing something further stupid and get them to shut up about things.
Selling iron tools should shut the traders up at least.
And they have a point, if we sell good quality iron tools more cheaply than local smiths can produce it, they'd never get going without state investment. Which would only really be done for strategic steel like weapons.

Meanwhile the guilds were interested in expanding a number of operations, most notably glass since there was a high demand for the material for various other things - art and the storage of materials like vitriol or quicksilver - that had not entirely been filled before now. The priests were glaring daggers at them because their demands were going to rapidly start threatening the forests. According to them, if the guilds wanted all the charcoal and timber heavy projects they were pursuing they should grow the forests some more.

So we have a lot of industries in need of glass that we hadn't provided for the handling of acid and mercury. We'll meet that once the forestry policy catches up.
Priests are going to need glasses if they keep glaring too.

The traders chimed in and suggested that a trading post in the far north would not only be able to tap into new markets, but there were those distant tales of giant trees. Imagine what the People could do with access to those markets!
The North Trade Post WOULD solve a bunch of issues handily and add a bunch of trade goods certainly. Still no idea how we'd keep them under our control long term though. The Triangle Canal should help cut the logistical distance?

The yeomen farmers were only asking for the relatively tame request of more land to farm and that the trails be in good enough condition to take their produce to market.
No biggie providing this, but their demands for expansion will be complicated in a bunch of ways like oh...

...starting a settlement next to the HK just before we plan to declare war on them is not very bright.
But the roads are good. Need more roads.

Feeling ignored, the Priests were stating that the temples needed to be improved in order to placate the wrath of the gods, who were not impressed by the bellicose and proud attitude the People had taken in recent generations.

Of course, some of that might be jealousy over the powers the priests of the Khemetri had, now that they were in communication with them, and had a better idea about them. While obviously the People's gods favoured locally, the priests of the Khemetri were backed up extensively by their king, and the People were so welcoming of others that the priests were clearly worried.
Khemetri are apparently very very high in religious authority, naturally enough.
We'll meet this with passive infrastructure policy I think? Won't take long!
 
One of Remaharmati's younger brothers had been badly afflicted in his youth - well, several had, but the worst cases were dead - and the experience had left him badly disfigured. Rather than taking up any duties, he had retreated from public life and into the royal harem, where he was... well, were he not of divine blood he would have been dealt with already. If Remah became king he would strangle his brother himself just to keep the man away from the throne. He'd let the affliction get to him and had become as ugly on the inside as he perceived himself to be on the outside. And from the position of prince, Remah was of the opinion that more than a few disasters in the history of his people had come from promising princes perishing early, and some of them being twisted by the demons of disease. Reducing that by warding against the pox... the possibilities were incredible.
Actually, this makes me wonder if perhaps the Khemerites have a similar idea to the Greeks, I.E. that a good body was a blessing from the Gods and indicated a virtuous soul. It obviously isn't universal, as Remeharmati obviously doesn't think of a correlation, but it could hasten his brother's descent into depravity.

Of course, if this is true, that would be a great boon for Ymaryn Diplomace. Because Elves are worth it.

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
I was in favour of spreading it to everyone way back then, no way I'm letting go of this chance.

[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
Not much to say here: Money is the best lawyer in Gygo.

[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably Spiritual Value)
The Khemetri are the only power around that are our equal, and thus they are the only one with Virtues worth adapting. Their Godly ways are powerful as well (Future Prediction have been a weak-spot in Ymaryn theology, though any tragedy only strikes once), and in fact show an Ymaryn style of problem-solving. Think about it, they didn't have any Sacred Forests of their own so instead of having trees to please the Spirits they made giant Mountains instead. This is the sort of people we should learn from.
The fact that I am part of the Priest Faction is entirely irrelevant to how I vote.

I mean, imagine if we regained the ability to make new Sacred Troops from this. We could have our mighty Scouts and Medics supported by Yenyna-style Dragonskulls! And notice how every time the Military Elite cause problems, it's the bloody charioteers? That's because mystically adept warriors are all wise enough to realise that there are more important things in life than honour and social standing.

I ask of you humbly, dear thread: Look to the Khemetri for guidance. It will make one of our strongest points stronger.

[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
Duh.

[] [React] Pre-emptively meet forest demand (Main Expand Forest)
Sorely tempted.

[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))
But this is what I'll go for. Build the Seven Warlords of the Sea to take out the pirtates, then hire them out to Khemri/Trelli to protect their trade and give us delicious Wealth.

Obviously we must make a floating forest on the sea that they get to sail through! Right @Omegahugger senpai? This is a good idea right?
New Megaproject unlocked: Floating Gardens of Ymaryn
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Aug 4, 2017 at 5:52 AM, finished with 94679 posts and 99 votes.
 
@Academia Nut,
The hk would be a very inflexible literal interpretation of the law value.

What about the others? Can you give us any hints?

Also for doing the priests quest, would upgrading the shrine annex count as a lvl2 temple?
 
Does anybody thinks the Battle of Bloodvalley would be good cover art for PoC? How do we go about finding a professional artist to commission anyway?
 
You almost always advocate against Enforce Justice, because you want to do trails instead. Has this changed with wildcat merged in? Are you willing to use it now?

Because if not, there's no point upgrading it.
You notice that THIS time I'm not advocating agaisnt it anymore, but rather in favor of pirate hunting because they're snowballing scourges.

We now hava a permanent, beneficial and renewable source of Centralization decrease we'd never run out of uses of(by shitting out mid turn forests, which I doubt we'd run out of uses any time soon). Enforce the hell away!

They already had Moloch Calls back then, though. The point is:

We took a value from a child sacrificing society and it was fine.
We can take a value from a chattel slavery practicing society, and it will probably also be fine.
They didn't.

The first time we polled them they had Greater Good.
The second time we polled them they had Greater Good.
The third time we polled them they had Greater Good.

The fourth time we polled them, and got Center of Trade because they evolved Greater Good to Moloch Calls.
We then promptly dropped Center of Trade at the first opportunity to avoid being dragged into trade wars, in favor of the amazing Wildcat.

Is it possible to also share Sanitation - the effects of clean water, salt, and honey - with them? From that one update way back on page 1101, May 4th, where the People... well... "headbutt one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse."
A few problems with that:
-It's never come up. We won't realize they don't practice Sanitation, and they won't realize anything different with the water for a while.
--Furthermore, floodplain civilizations like the Khemetri find this very hard to manage. The annual floods are essential to function and building their latrines out of reach of floodwaters would be...expensive.
-We're the current major provider of salt. The Traders will throw a fit if we cause the Khemetri to start building salterns along their coastal holdings, since they're the only ones who could spam them like we do.
-We don't have much honey to sell yet.

So potential triggers would be:
-Honey trade good gained. Traders extoll it's benefits to the Khemetri to sell it.
-Khemetri suffers cholera outbreak and talk to us about it. At which point we go "Well, we already stopped that"

Actually, I wonder if it's possible to also share the Basic Anatomy we got from the Dead Priests the turn after that due to sharing sanitation with everybody, too?

Just, spread as much health and knowledge of health-related stuff as possible. :)
IIRC the Book of Life is carved into the walls over at Rainbow Trail and Sacred Forest, so if they take a detour they'd probably learn it?
Overall don't sweat tech gifting. We have the trait that makes it automatic in general.
I mean, imagine if we regained the ability to make new Sacred Troops from this.
Unlikely. We have not seen any Sacred Troops in the Khemetri complement during the war, which would have been noted.
 
[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably Spiritual Value)

Bah, we are totally going to have the bestest God-king.

Khemetri-chan obviously needs to learn just how much superior we are!
 
The hk would be a very inflexible literal interpretation of the law value.
More of "adherence to the law is absolute" which is sort of needed because damn, our traders have been doing the Word Not Spirit of Law thing too much.
What about the others? Can you give us any hints?
He said before we'd only get that info for parties we've traded with.

So Trelli(though the only thing we know there is that its evolved Center of Trade) and Metalworkers might have more info, the rest probably notn
Also for doing the priests quest, would upgrading the shrine annex count as a lvl2 temple?
Its currently at below level 1, would take at least 2 more and we only have 2 annex slots left.
 
More of "adherence to the law is absolute" which is sort of needed because damn, our traders have been doing the Word Not Spirit of Law thing too much.

He said before we'd only get that info for parties we've traded with.

So Trelli(though the only thing we know there is that its evolved Center of Trade) and Metalworkers might have more info, the rest probably notn

Its currently at below level 1, would take at least 2 more and we only have 2 annex slots left.

We have two slots left and we need two slots, it's perfect. And it should synergies quite nicely with all the other annexes. Also we're going to be making new provinces, so that's an extra slot.
 
More of "adherence to the law is absolute" which is sort of needed because damn, our traders have been doing the Word Not Spirit of Law thing too much.

I'm not sure it's about letter vs spirit. AN said "rigid". I would propose "rigid" does in fact mean rigidly adhering to the word of the law - but, on the positive side, with no space for considerations. No considerations for the 'good reputation of the community', or for 'will this ruling offend people' or 'but they are such upright citizens!'. And that is good. Simply enforcing the law, without allowing personal considerations to enter the picture, is a good base for eventually having a comprehensive rule of law.

So I still agree with you it sounds like something good to have ;)
 
Unlikely. We have not seen any Sacred Troops in the Khemetri complement during the war, which would have been noted.
Unlikely... But not impossible!

How exactly would we tell the difference between their Sacred Warriors and their regular ones during combat? It's not like they'll be Space MArines screaming prayers mid-combat.

What about their version of blackbirds they were mentioned?
IIRC those were borrowed/vassalised from a different faction, not native Khemrites.
 
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
 
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